That does appear to be absolutely permitted by the present Sacramentary. Seems like good advice to me.I … use the new texts wherever the present text says “these or similar words,” such as the introduction to the Lord’s Prayer. I do not see that this is implementing the new translation before it is allowed, although I would humbly submit to correction if it were deemed so.
Yes. And there are many who are trying and succeeding in learning the Old Latin Mass. New things happen. People are already learning to change.Most active preists today were educated after Vatican II. They are very used to the present translations. It is going to take some time for them to get used to the new translations.
Yes, it is what we say in the Divine Liturgy in the Eastern churches. And this is what I grew up saying as an Episcopalian in the 1950’s.P-“The Lord be with you”
R-“And with your spirit”
That’s the actual translation, I wonder why they made it “and also with you”. I love hearing that in the Divine Liturgy!
But, I think that in some cases, the FDLC has been more of a hindrance than a help, especially when Sing to the Lord came out. This document was supposed to bring the music into conformity with Liturgiam Authenticam, but, heavily lobbying from the FDLC, the NPM and others pretty much rendered the document with all of the teeth of a paper tiger. I did not feel comfortable there when I went to one of the conferences and received a lot of email and snail mail. I thought that they were leaning too far to the left and, when I read what happened to Sing to the Lord, my suspicions were confirmed. Even the SWLC was a bit off-base on some things, moving more towards the horizontal than to the vertical dimension of liturgy. We have to remember that the laity-driving committees are merely advisory. The ones who need to take a stand are the bishops. They need to stand with Rome on this one and not listen to the voices of discontent.The timetable is not published because everything is hanging on the approval of the full text and the recognitio from Rome. Once those are all approved it is going to take some time for the publishers to do their thing. The earliest they are saying is Advent 2010 but it could be Advent 2011. I have my information from people working with the CDW on this project and from people in Washington. It is called the Roman Missal Project. There is already some catechetical information ready to be published. You have to keep looking on the CDW site for updates and also on the FDLC web site but some of the info on that site might still be limited to members. There are four white papers going to be published by the FDLC. Four are already completed and one is in draft form. Once they are released they will be very helpful. There will also be bulletin inserts and as I said before DVD’s and complete catechetical packages.
They don’t want to rush it because it can be confusing to begin catechesis and then nothing will happen for a year or two. As someone said, the majority of Cathoics don’t even know this is coming down the pike. And it could cause confusion, like it did in South Africa where anxious bishops jumped the gun and started using the parts that are completed without approval to begin using them.
There is no need to rush this. The assembly’s parts are not that difficult. Most of the catechesis, believe it or not, will be for the priests, whose parts incur major changes.
Actually, both the Spanish and the Italian versions of the prayers are much closer to the Latin than the ones in English. I live on the Texas side of the Rio Grande and the Spanish version of the Roman Missal (we use the one approved for Mexico, until the one approved for the US gets the recognitio comes along) is a spot-on translation of the Latin. I am hoping that the folks who did the US translation did not stray far from the text and that they used Liturgiam Authenticam as the guide.Yes, it is what we say in the Divine Liturgy in the Eastern churches. And this is what I grew up saying as an Episcopalian in the 1950’s.
I haven’t been to the Mass in Spanish recently but as I recall the Spanish usage would also translate this way. I imagine the Spanish language Mass isn’t the only vernacular that translated closer to the Latin. In the Chaldean it’s “With you and with your Spirit.”
A priest who celebrates in Spanish recently mentioned that the Spanish language Mass also has “Lord, I am not worthy that thou should come under my roof but only say the word, and my soul shall be healed.” which I think is another proposed change for the English.
Many thanks for your words of encouragement and support. The new translations are a great step in the right direction. I’m glad you are so supportive.
God bless.
Like Fr. Z says, “brick by brick”.
- Bishop Serratelli
Is it possible that the bishops who are stalling this process may be holding out due to the advanced age of Pope Benedict XVI? Is there any certainty about the Advent 2010 timeline? If (God forbid) something happened to our Pope before then, would the entire process be stalled until a new Pope acted on it? As a new Catholic, I’m not familiar with how these processes work. I’m just wondering whether this might be a motive for the unbelievable stalling that has gone on regarding approval of these translations in the US.Now, Bishop Serratelli did give the bishops a strong message. If they do not move to approve the translations by November, Rome is going to move with or without the USCCB. They have had enough time to study the translations. If they continue the course they are taking, they will not have a voice nor a vote in the translations. That is why there is a sense of urgency.
Are they stalling? I doubt it. Then again, I disbelieve conspiracy theories in general.Is it possible that the bishops who are stalling this process may be holding out due to the advanced age of Pope Benedict XVI? Is there any certainty about the Advent 2010 timeline? If (God forbid) something happened to our Pope before then, would the entire process be stalled until a new Pope acted on it? As a new Catholic, I’m not familiar with how these processes work. I’m just wondering whether this might be a motive for the unbelievable stalling that has gone on regarding approval of these translations in the US.
I had understood the opposite - that the 2002 GIRM removed the provision of the 1975 GIRM to adapt such texts unless it was indicated in the rubrics. There is no such indication for the Lord’s Prayer.To priests who are interested in getting accustomed to the new translation, I pass on a bit of advice from Fr. Gregory Pilcher (Benedictine monk and pastor of Holy Redeemer Catholic Church in El Dorado, AZ). He said:
That does appear to be absolutely permitted by the present Sacramentary. Seems like good advice to me.
As you probably are aware, the Chaldeans do not use the Latin liturgy. It is translated correctly - in the East Syrian tradition the response is “with you and with your spirit”Yes, it is what we say in the Divine Liturgy in the Eastern churches. And this is what I grew up saying as an Episcopalian in the 1950’s.
I haven’t been to the Mass in Spanish recently but as I recall the Spanish usage would also translate this way. I imagine the Spanish language Mass isn’t the only vernacular that translated closer to the Latin. In the Chaldean it’s “With you and with your Spirit.”
The 1985 English Sacramentary, which most priests in the US are using, allows in its rubrics for “these or similar words” in various places, including the preface to the Our Father.I had understood the opposite - that the 2002 GIRM removed the provision of the 1975 GIRM to adapt such texts unless it was indicated in the rubrics. There is no such indication for the Lord’s Prayer.
Which rubric is this? As I recall, the one in front of the Our Father does use the “or similar words” wording, but I’m unsure without the book in front of me, whether there is something on the page before the Order of the Mass itself, or perhaps in the long section before the Preparation of the Gifts?The 1985 English Sacramentary, which most priests in the US are using, allows in its rubrics for “these or similar words” in various places, including the preface to the Our Father.
My bad. The rubric isn’t there for the Our Father.Which rubric is this? As I recall, the one in front of the Our Father does use the “or similar words” wording, but I’m unsure without the book in front of me, whether there is something on the page before the Order of the Mass itself, or perhaps in the long section before the Preparation of the Gifts?
how beautiful… i dont know can anyone give such a beauty for something that is torturous as todays music. i know my priest enjoys modern songs, you know like dancing songs. what a shame.bbbbb
Dear Bernadette,
It’s late, so you must be out here on the West Coast. We have St Margaret Mary in Oakland with a Tradidional Latin Mass 7 days a week. Tomorrow night (Friday Night) there will be a High Mass for “Most Sacred Heart of Jesus”
Below are the Chants from St Benedicts in Brazil. They are free MP3 downloads, wish I could attach them to my post.
Feria VI post dom. II post Pentecosten
Sacratissimi Cordis Iesu
Introitus: Ps. 32, 11.19 et 1 Cogitationes Cordis eius
Graduale: Ps. 24, 8. V. 9 Dulcis et rectus Dominus
Alleluia: Mt. 11, 29 Tollite iugum meum
Offertorium: Ps. 68, 21 Improperium exspectavit
Communio: Io. 19, 34 Unus militum
Lets do a test to see if when you click this link the Alleluia for tomorrow nights High Mass will auto play:
christusrex.org/www2/cantgreg/cantus/al_tollite_iugum_meum.mp3
Richard
thanks for doing this. if i ask, how did you write to your bishop? what words did you use? how do you know he read it? i would like to do the same if i can. but i dont know what to say and how to say. can you help? blessings.The new prayers are beautiful. They restore authenticity to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as they are as close to an accurate translation of the prayers as they can get.
For my part, I wrote an email to my bishop and implored him to vote with Bishop Seratelli, reminding him that his primary episcopal responsibility involves serving as the Chief Liturgical Steward of our diocese and that he needed to safeguard the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I urge all of us to write to our bishops and archbishops, storming the chanceries with letters of support for these new translations.
The USCCB will be selling mail-in ballots very soon. If we can convince our bishops that this is the right thing to do, perhaps we can get this reform of the reform train moving again.
Since our diocese is a suffragen of the Archdiocese of San Antonio, this is what I wrote to that Metropolitan:thanks for doing this. if i ask, how did you write to your bishop? what words did you use? how do you know he read it? i would like to do the same if i can. but i dont know what to say and how to say. can you help? blessings.
This is pretty much what I wrote to my own bishop, although it was more personal since I know my ordinary. I hope this helps.Most Reverend and Dear Archbishop:
Greetings in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ!
My name is XXX and I am a lay woman from the Diocese of Laredo, a suffragen of the Archdiocese of San Antonio. I have kept up with the debates and votes concernng the new Translation of the Roman Missal with great interest through Twitter, the USCCB website and other forms of meda. My purpose in writing to you is to see how the laity can help in urging the rest of the Latin-Rite members of the USCCB to vote for these important documents.
Inasmuch as I worked for the Texas House of Representatives for 12 years, I realize that the Church is not a democracy. However, in my work, I have seen votes change when constituents raise a call to arms and right to their legislators requesting that they support a particular issue. Through Twitter, Facebook and Plurk, I have taken it upon myself to urge any Catholic of good will reading my messages to please send letters and emails to their bishops to urge them to stand by you and vote with you when they receive their mail-in ballots. These translations are clearly what the Holy See wants. They will bring us into conformity with Liturgiam Authenticam. Francis Cardinal Arinze, Prefect-Emeritus for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, and his successor, Antonio Cardinal Canizares have urged the USCCB to act with all speed. Now, I believe, the faithful need to also rally behind these translations.
Many comments were made in the course of the USCCB’s deliberations that the language is too lofty. But, the fact remains that when we gather for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we are participating in a sacred Act outside of the ordinary. In fact, we are entering into God’s time, where the veil between heaven and earth and time and space is lifted. We are surrounded by an unseen cloud of witnesses who join us in this Holy Sacrifice and are just as present at Calvary, the Upper Room and the tomb as were the Blessed Mother, the Apostles and St. Mary Magdalene. Thus the language of prayer needs to be something altogether dfferent, solemn, majestic, dignified and beautiful. It also needs to be the language that is faithful to the original Latin text. I have no problem understanding gibbet, consubstantial and other words that are perceived as some to be stumbling blocks. We must remember that the prayers and propers are not directed at us; they are directed to the Father, in the name of the Son and through the Holy Spirit.
When I lived in Austin, I had the privilege of attending the Mass in the Extraordinary Form and the Anglican-use Mass. There was intrinsic beauty in both forms of the Holy Sacrifice. In fact, some of the new translations of the Ordinary Form of the Mass bear some resemblence to the style of language employed in the Anglican-use Mass.
Your Excellency, I realize that this is a Don Quijote-esque quest of mine and that some will probably think that my efforts should be better spent elsewhere. But, I am reminded of the example given to us by St. Catherine of Sienna, who, despite discouraging words from those around her, made it a point to tell the reigning Pope that he needed to get back to Rome. I am the furthest person from St. Catherine. I don’t even come close to matching her holiness or her fidelity to the Church. However, I love the Church and the Holy Sacrifce of the Mass. God gave me the talent to write. If I can use this talent to help promote the cause of the Holy Sacrfce of the Mass and the faithful observance of its norms and rubrics, including adherence to Redemptionis Sacramentum, the GIRM and Liturgiam Authenticam, then, so be it.
For my part, I have already written an email to my local Ordinary, urging him to vote for the new translations when he and the rest of the Latin-Rite members of the USCCB voted on the matter. In fact, I wrote him the email the night before the vote was to take place. I have urged my friends to do the same, and have also urged those who follow me on Twitter, Plurk and Facebook to contact their local bishops and archbishops. Now that the ballots will be sent to you by mail, I urge you with great filial respect, as a suffragen of your Metropolitan See, to please support these new translations.
I thank you for taking the time to read this email and I ask the Sacred Heart of Jesus to please bless and protect you and that the Blessed Mother may guide you and sustain you both in your ministry as Bishop and successor of the Apostles. We are blessed to live as suffragens in your Metropolitan See.
Respectfully submitted,
thank you so much. that is very persuasive and respectfull. indeed good writing. i am in florida and the bishop here is very liberal. i dont know if my letter would have any influence on his decision. i hope it will. Blessings.Since our diocese is a suffragen of the Archdiocese of San Antonio, this is what I wrote to that Metropolitan:
This is pretty much what I wrote to my own bishop, although it was more personal since I know my ordinary. I hope this helps.
Thank you, for the kind words. Actually, your letter may do something because it will give him an idea that maybe the argumentts used against the translations are unfounded. HGe would see that people in his diocese do care and do understand the significance and are hungry for a return to beauty in the Mass.thank you so much. that is very persuasive and respectfull. indeed good writing. i am in florida and the bishop here is very liberal. i dont know if my letter would have any influence on his decision. i hope it will. Blessings.