Opponents Protest in Face of NRA Silence on Sandy Hook Shooting

  • Thread starter Thread starter HansTrappist
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Then a bunch of responsible gun-owning politicians should step forward to make up the ban list. I am sure such people exist. It can’t be that everyone who owns a gun is a 2nd Amendment purist.
Those politicians have to realize the limits of their ‘constituency’, before they can make up their minds what should be done.

We all need to contact our senators and congressmen/women and convey our thoughts. I no longer expect a dialogue, where the two sides seeks a solution, on these forums. Emotions are involved, but on both sides; everyone shocked at the travesty, with one group wanting action, and another group that opposes action because of the possibility of how it might affect their views on gun rights personally.

The internet and media has become a source of scouring for anything that can be ‘interpreted’ to make a point, whether the point is valid or not. This subject is political, and politics proves itself once again to be less than honest.

There is One that listens to us all, and grants according to His will. All should talk to Him.
 
There shouldn’t, and won’t be a “ban list”.
Shouldn’t there be some type of accountability in the absence of a ‘ban list’?

Most states have a ‘title’ system on vehicles. Why couldn’t we title guns likewise. Untitled guns are open to confiscation, with penalties? This would prevent private sales of guns, and assure law abiding sellers that a gun is no longer a danger of being connected to themselves.

People are naming every imaginable danger, as comparison to the dangers of guns in the wrong hands. This is why car insurance is mandatory, and everyone has to pay. Why can’t there be an insurance requirement for guns?
 
Seriously? You’re comparing law abiding citizens to gollum? Awfully charitiable!

Just be careful with that language. Politicians have been pretty generous in using the verb “cling” in the past:

:rolleyes:
What do you mean by “law abiding citizen”? Women who have abortions are “law abiding citizens” and so are the doctors who perform them. So what does being law-abiding have to do with morality?

Gollum was created to illustrate what Catholics believe happens to a person who “clings” to items that provide power and control. I used the word “cling” on purpose, because it illustrates the difference between someone who owns a gun and an extremist who needs a gun. Nobody needs a gun.

Lots of gun owners agree with me that there should be limits. Hopefully they will be allowed to contribute in a meaningful way to the conversation.
 
When you say ‘no one’ I don’t think you really mean that. You mean no one who is not in the police or military (especially this since these ‘killing machines’ were designed for them). So you really mean some people need it and others do not. So why do some people need it? I’m sure you’d say for defense and law and order. I would point out the US was founded with the notion you did not need standing armies or police forces. The citizens were to a large degree responsible for necessary defense and police actions. So was that an insane, unworkable system? Clearly not. It also had many advantages.
Actually, it was an unworkable system, which is why we now have a standing army and are not dependent upon calling up state militia’s like Lincoln was forced to do at the onset of the Civil War.

Ever heard of the Baltimore Riot of 1861? You should look it up.
 
Sigh, ok I’ll say it: the NRA is far more than you say here. It is a powerful political lobby that has ever agitated for more expansive gun ownership rights, and less regulation and easier access to firearms of all types. This isn’t about taking away everyone’s guns. It’s about regulating better to prevent easy access to weapons of war for the mentally deranged. Hunting rifles and handguns are one thing, the Bushmaster .223 that this guy used to massacre children is something else. It is a military-grade assault rifle pure and simple. No one needs this kind of killing machine, not for personal protection and certainly not for sport. It should not be available for general sale to the public, anymore than are rocket or grenade launchers.
I’m not a member of the NRA, however,

Actually, the NRA backed several compromises including the ~1986 law under Reagan which prohibited any new full-auto weapons to be sold to the public. Freezing the number of full-auto weapons at (according to the Solicitor General in orals before SCOTUS) ~160,000. Note, the definition of a full-auto weapon includes any weapon which can be easily modified to fire more than one-round with the single pull of a trigger, or just the components to make that modification. ATF defines what constitutes ‘easily modified’. They have retroactively made some weapons illegal, first saying they aren’t easily modified than changing their ruling. Folks have to turn the weapons in.

They also backed background checks, compromising with a longer initial period as leverage for insisting the FBI imrove their ability to conduct background checks rapidly. Which has the added benefit of allowing Law Enforcement to follow up immediately after a prohibited buyer attempts to buy a weapon. (Note, this is why the Fast and Furious scandal had to have involved the FBI, the affected gun shops which reported the buyers received clearance by not just the ATF but also the FBI to sell the weapons)

As to the .223 Bushmaster. It’s a very capable weapon and need is based on one’s requirements.

It is not a “military grade assualt rifle”. It’s a semi-automatic rifle firing a .223 cartridge, it does have the ability to accept a 30 round standard magazine. An ‘assault rifle’ has the ability to select between single-shot and full-auto (either burst or continuous) which the Bushmaster not only doesn’t have, it would be extremely difficult and risky to attempt to modify to full auto.

The .223 can be a very good choice for self-defense, not my choice but YMMV, particularly in a home-

-One of the issues in self-defense, particularly inside a building is the risk of over-penetration. A round capable of stopping someone quickly (12" ballistic gel penetration is standard for minimum acceptability by FBI); a round which can accomplish that will penetrate the walls in most houses. The .223 at short ranges and high speeds tends to start breaking up as soon is it hits something, so while it will penetrate through walls it is more likely to come through in pieces, rapidly losing energy, speed and becoming less effective and hazardous than an intact large bore rifle, shotgun, or pistol round.
  • Much of the country is experiencing a rise in home invasion type robberies. Dealing with multiple intruders can rapidly exhaust the supply of ammo in a handgun or shotgun. The AR patterned rifles have the ability to provide sufficient ammunition in one firearm in one magazine, limits having to reload and risks of screwing that up under stress.
  • As a magazine fed weapon it is much easier to load/unload than a tube weapon like a shotgun, or the fixed mag ARs that are required in California. In the trade-offs of storing a weapon, while it is preferred to store the weapon loaded that is risky if there are children in the home. But if not loaded, there may not be sufficient time to load it when needed. It also is riskier to unload, that is, unloading requires cycling the action on a shotgun through multiple rounds risking a negligent discharge, or additional manipulations of a fixed mag AR. (Imagine doing this after an incident with shaking hands etc)
  • Most people who own firearms for self-defense understand the golden rule- ‘You never lose the fight you avoid’. Hence, most will simply attempt to gather up their kids and loved ones and retire to one room. Problem with a handgun, particularly scooping up young kids, or trying to use a phone- you run out of hands. A long gun has the advantage of a sling, so you can move through your home talk on the phone, scooping up kids while maintaining weapon retention.
  • Moving through a home is much harder with a long hunting rifle or shotgun than a shorter AR patterned rifle. Try carrying a mop handle around your home at night and you’ll see what I mean. The longer the weapon is, the easier it is for someone to take it away from you as you round a corner etc. (There is a minimum length for shotguns and rifles or they become illegal unless registered and taxed under the NFA as short-barrelled shotguns or rifles).
  • Recoil. The recoil on a .223 is far more manageable than a 12 gauge shotgun (even using Low Recoil rounds), larger pistol, or large hunting rifle. This means multiple folks in your home can become comfortable and proficient with it. Including young teens.
(Continued)
 
What do you mean by “law abiding citizen”? Women who have abortions are “law abiding citizens” and so are the doctors who perform them. So what does being law-abiding have to do with morality?
I think you need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church since it seems you don’t know the difference between abortion and self-defense.
 
  • Nightmare is shooting someone who doesn’t need to be shot. I.E. your daughter sneaks a friend in during the middle of the night. While you can become proficient in using a flashlight in conjunction with a pistol, it’s hard and again you only have so many hands, a longer gun enables you to mount a light on the weapon to clearly ID the target (and hopefully dazzle them into freezing or running away). Most AR patterned rifles already have rails for mounting lights. An extremely bright light also helps in countering the flash blindess which will occur if the worst happens and you have to pull the trigger in a darkened room.
  • Finally, it’s a very flexible weapon with many other uses including target shooting, hunting, varmint elimination, and competitive sports shooting. The ammo tends to be cheaper than most large bore hunting rifles and, as noted above, the recoil much less punishing. This means a person is much more likely to use it, become proficient and comfortable (which means safer) with it than other choices.
FYI interesting bit from SCOTUS orals in Heller-,

First, the relevant DC Court of Appeals ruling sections-

“To summarize, we conclude that the Second Amendment
protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That right
existed prior to the formation of the new government under the
Constituti¬on and was premised on the private use of arms for
activities such as hunting and self-defense, the latter being
understood as resistance to either private lawlessness or the
depredatio¬ns of a tyrannical government (or a threat from
abroad). In addition, the right to keep and bear arms had the
important and salutary civic purpose of helping to preserve the
citizen militia. The civic purpose was also a political expedient
for the Federalist¬s in the First Congress as it served, in part, to
placate their Anti-federa¬list opponents. The individual right
facilitate¬d militia service by ensuring that citizens would not be
barred from keeping the arms they would need when called forth
for militia duty. Despite the importance of the Second
Amendment’¬s civic purpose, however, the activities it protects
are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual¬’s
enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued or
intermitte¬nt enrollment in the militia.”

Pg 53

The modern handgun—and for that matter the rifle and
long-barreled shotgun—is undoubtedly quite improved over its
colonial-era predecessor, but it is, after all, a lineal descendant
of that founding-era weapon, and it passes Miller’s standards.
Pistols certainly bear “some reasonable relationship to the
preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.” They are
also in “common use” today, and probably far more so than in
1789. Nevertheless, it has been suggested by some that only
colonial-era firearms (e.g., single-shot pistols) are covered by
the Second Amendment. But just as the First Amendment free
speech clause covers modern communication devices unknown
to the founding generation, e.g., radio and television, and the
Fourth Amendment protects telephonic conversation from a
“search,” the Second Amendment protects the possession of the
modern-day equivalents of the colonial pistol. See, e.g., Kyllo
v. United States, 533 U.S. 27, 31-41 (2001) (applying Fourth
Amendment standards to thermal imaging search).

SCOTUS orals discussion
GENERAL CLEMENT: Well, Justice Scalia, I think our principal concern based on the parts of the court of appeals opinion that seemed to adopt a very categorical rule were with respect to machine guns, because I do think that it is difficult – I don’t want to foreclose the possibility of the Government, Federal Government making the argument some day – but I think it is more than a little difficult to say that the one arm that’s not protected by the Second Amendment is that which is the standard issue armament for the National Guard, and that’s what the machine gun is.
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: But this law didn’t involve a restriction on machine guns. It involved an absolute ban. It involved an absolute carry prohibition. Why would you think that the opinion striking down an absolute ban would also apply to a narrow one – narrower one directed solely to machine guns?
GENERAL CLEMENT: I think, Mr. Chief Justice, why one might worry about that is one might read the language of page 53a of the opinion as reproduced in the petition appendix that says once it is an arm, then it is not open to the District to ban it. Now, it seems to me that the District is not strictly a complete ban because it exempts pre-1976 handguns. The Federal ban on machine guns is not, strictly speaking, a ban, because it exempts pre - pre-law machine guns, and there is something like 160,000 of those.
JUSTICE SCALIA: But that passage doesn’t mean once it’s an arm in the dictionary definition of arms. Once it’s an arm in the specialized sense that the opinion referred to it, which is – which is the type of a weapon that was used in militia, and it is -it is nowadays commonly held.
GENERAL CLEMENT: Well -
JUSTICE SCALIA: If you read it that way, I don’t see why you have a problem.

GENERAL CLEMENT: Well, I – I hope that you read it that way. But I would also say that I think that whatever the definition that the lower court opinion employed, I do think it’s going to be difficult over time to sustain the notion – I mean, the Court of Appeals also talked about lineal descendants. And it does seem to me that, you know, just as this Court would apply the Fourth Amendment to something like heat imagery, I don’t see why this Court wouldn’t allow the Second Amendment to have the same kind of scope, and then I do think that reasonably machine guns come within the term “arms.”
 
What do you mean by “law abiding citizen”? Women who have abortions are “law abiding citizens” and so are the doctors who perform them. So what does being law-abiding have to do with morality?
Ownership of a gun is not equal to abortion, sorry. There is nothing immoral about owning a gun.
40.png
bellasbane:
Gollum was created to illustrate what Catholics believe happens to a person who “clings” to items that provide power and control. I used the word “cling” on purpose, because it illustrates the difference between someone who owns a gun and an extremist who needs a gun. Nobody needs a gun.
So now I’m an “extremist”??? Another great analogy.

And yet Tolkein wrote favorably of other weapons, see Narsil, Angrist, and others. An item is a tool, used for protection.

And where are “needs” listed in the 2nd amendment?
40.png
bellasbane:
Lots of gun owners agree with me that there should be limits. Hopefully they will be allowed to contribute in a meaningful way to the conversation.
Lots of gun owners and non gun owners agree with me, and consider this a knee jerk reaction to a deeper problem. It didn’t solve any problems from 1994-2004, it won’t now. California already has stricter gun control laws than say, Texas. How do those murder rates compare?
 
What do you mean by “law abiding citizen”? Women who have abortions are “law abiding citizens” and so are the doctors who perform them. So what does being law-abiding have to do with morality?
What website names the women that had abortions and then sends out tweets to kill them?
Gollum was created to illustrate what Catholics believe happens to a person who “clings” to items that provide power and control. I used the word “cling” on purpose, because it illustrates the difference between someone who owns a gun and an extremist who needs a gun. Nobody needs a gun.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.

Mao Tse Tung
Lots of gun owners agree with me that there should be limits. Hopefully they will be allowed to contribute in a meaningful way to the conversation.
Like Diane Feinstein? Her all me and none for thee motto is hardly a convincing argument.
 
I think you need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church since it seems you don’t know the difference between abortion and self-defense.
Wasn’t this family ‘law abiding’ until something ‘snapped’, changing one to mentally unstable?
 
Actually, it was an unworkable system, which is why we now have a standing army and are not dependent upon calling up state militia’s like Lincoln was forced to do at the onset of the Civil War.

Ever heard of the Baltimore Riot of 1861? You should look it up.
So how did this country survive and avoid being invaded and overtaken when it didn’t have a standing army? How did anyone ever get tried for a crime without police forces? What is your basis for calling it unworkable? I would call it workable because the US government was able to maintain its authority, was not defeated by outsiders and law and order was generally maintained.

There were riots after the Rodney King ruling. There are riots after sports victories. So I’m not sure your point.

By the way the benefits I speak of are not having a standing army which in our case has led to being overseas all the time fighting other nations. And it is funny you bring up an event where half of the nation turned on the other half to invade it and subjugate it in while arguing for less power of common defense. That war is a prime example of why we need weapons since the very government we live under did in fact turn on its own people and cause the death of over half a million.
 
Actually, it was an unworkable system, which is why we now have a standing army and are not dependent upon calling up state militia’s like Lincoln was forced to do at the onset of the Civil War.

Ever heard of the Baltimore Riot of 1861? You should look it up.
Do you know how the draft works?

The US had a standing army before the civil war - similar in size to what many democrats want today.
 
Actually, the NRA backed several compromises including the ~1986 law under Reagan which prohibited any new full-auto weapons to be sold to the public. Freezing the number of full-auto weapons at (according to the Solicitor General in orals before SCOTUS) ~160,000. Note, the definition of a full-auto weapon includes any weapon which can be easily modified to fire more than one-round with the single pull of a trigger, or just the components to make that modification. ATF defines what constitutes ‘easily modified’. They have retroactively made some weapons illegal, first saying they aren’t easily modified than changing their ruling. Folks have to turn the weapons in.

They also backed background checks, compromising with a longer initial period as leverage for insisting the FBI imrove their ability to conduct background checks rapidly. Which has the added benefit of allowing Law Enforcement to follow up immediately after a prohibited buyer attempts to buy a weapon. (Note, this is why the Fast and Furious scandal had to have involved the FBI, the affected gun shops which reported the buyers received clearance by not just the ATF but also the FBI to sell the weapons)
And that is why I’m not a member of the NRA. They do not sufficiently defend gun rights. They compromise fundamental rights. It gets tiring being on sides that always compromise while the other side never does so we slowly over time arrive at the other side’s position.
 
Wasn’t this family ‘law abiding’ until something ‘snapped’, changing one to mentally unstable?
The son suffered from mental illness for years, the mother even had a blog about it. It did not happen in a day.
 
And that is why I’m not a member of the NRA. They do not sufficiently defend gun rights. They compromise fundamental rights. It gets tiring being on sides that always compromise while the other side never does so we slowly over time arrive at the other side’s position.
That’s why I haven’t been a Republican in 20 years.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top