Opponents Protest in Face of NRA Silence on Sandy Hook Shooting

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You mean like Timothy McVeigh?
Columbine killers, the theater killer, the killer in Omaha. etc. There’s a very large list of mass murders compiling.

On your other post, I did not say the whole family was unstable, however it gives thought to how a family can give guarantee that their family is mentally stable? This would seem to indicate a necessity to confirm a families mental status for a single gun owner. I’m only trying to understand the argument that mental issues are the root of this and not the tools they choose to go on a rampage.
 
It was claimed George Tiller was sane.
The way it is now, anyone without a criminal history can purchase a gun. No one can say when a mental issue will affect a stable, law abiding, citizen. It’s only when they go off, that they are no longer law abiding, or stable.

George Tiller didn’t use a gun, and operated under the protection of the law. His story is the topic of another discussion.
 
Columbine killers, the theater killer, the killer in Omaha. etc. There’s a very large list of mass murders compiling.

On your other post, I did not say the whole family was unstable, however it gives thought to how a family can give guarantee that their family is mentally stable? This would seem to indicate a necessity to confirm a families mental status for a single gun owner. I’m only trying to understand the argument that mental issues are the root of this and not the tools they choose to go on a rampage.
So deny a gun to whole families because of one person in the family that is mentally unstable? That would in effect ban guns from everyone. But of course, the liberals will make celebrities and the liberal elite ruling class the exception.
 
The way it is now, anyone without a criminal history can purchase a gun. No one can say when a mental issue will affect a stable, law abiding, citizen. It’s only when they go off, that they are no longer law abiding, or stable.
That is not correct, there are a whole series of restrictions besides criminal history that prevent you from owning a weapon (not just buying one). Mental deficiency is one of the background checks.

It is also question f. on the Form 4473 that you fill out. If you lie on it you are supposed to spend 10 years in prison. If only the Justice department would enforce it. In this case when the son attempted to buy a weapon earlier in the week and was turned away it is very likely that he should been arrested.
 
Then a bunch of responsible gun-owning politicians should step forward to make up the ban list. I am sure such people exist. It can’t be that everyone who owns a gun is a 2nd Amendment purist.
If you really want to stop incidents like this passing one more law is not going to do a thing. Columbine happened when? In1999. Smack in the middle of the original assault-weapons ban.
 
So deny a gun to whole families because of one person in the family that is mentally unstable? That would in effect ban guns from everyone. But of course, the liberals will make celebrities and the liberal elite ruling class the exception.
I wasn’t attempting to say we need to deny families rights to own guns, but you came to the same conclusion I did when I weighed the mental instability vs. gun argument.

This family was law abiding, and they had a child with Asperger Syndrome. People with Aspergers can be extremely brilliant, and functioning. It’s not necessarily an adverse mental issue in all, or a majority of cases. There was no more a way to know this kid was a danger, than any ‘normal’ person.
 
… Nobody needs a gun…

.
Certainly, there are risks to owning them, but there are risks to not owning them.

I don’t/nobody needs–
  • Air bags on their car
  • Motorcycle safety equipment when they ride (helmet, gloves, boots)
  • Car Insurance
  • Life Insurance
  • Medical Insurance
  • Fire extinguishers
  • Smoke detectors
  • Carbon monoxide detectors
  • Fire escape ladders in multiple story homes
  • Burglar alarms
  • Home insurance (including theft)
  • Safety glasses for trimming/mowing
  • Spare tires on their car
  • Child safety locks in the house
  • Medical emergency kits or equipment
Or any other piece of equipment or precautinary measure for low odds negative events. Yet, some of us choose to have some or all of these things. It’s not the odds its what is at stake.
 
That is not correct, there are a whole series of restrictions besides criminal history that prevent you from owning a weapon (not just buying one). Mental deficiency is one of the background checks.

It is also question f. on the Form 4473 that you fill out. If you lie on it you are supposed to spend 10 years in prison. If only the Justice department would enforce it. In this case when the son attempted to buy a weapon earlier in the week and was turned away it is very likely that he should been arrested.
Forgive me for not listing every single requirement to buying a gun, and thank you for pointing it out; however, it doesn’t change the point in considering the mental stability issue being touted as the cause, and not the tool used.

Anyone can purchase a gun, even illegal purchases by people who can falsify the form.

Wasn’t this person turned down because of his age?

How is mental deficiency determined?
 
Certainly, there are risks to owning them, but there are risks to not owning them.

I don’t/nobody needs–
  • Air bags on their car
  • Motorcycle safety equipment when they ride (helmet, gloves, boots)
  • Car Insurance
  • Life Insurance
  • Medical Insurance
  • Fire extinguishers
  • Smoke detectors
  • Carbon monoxide detectors
  • Fire escape ladders in multiple story homes
  • Burglar alarms
  • Home insurance (including theft)
  • Safety glasses for trimming/mowing
  • Spare tires on their car
  • Child safety locks in the house
  • Medical emergency kits or equipment
Or any other piece of equipment or precautinary measure for low odds negative events. Yet, some of us choose to have some or all of these things. It’s not the odds its what is at stake.
Some of those in your list are required in the interest of the public. Why couldn’t we find some similar measures for gun ownership?
 
If you really want to stop incidents like this passing one more law is not going to do a thing. Columbine happened when? In1999. Smack in the middle of the original assault-weapons ban.
We have laws against murder, robbery, rape, etc. Should we discontinue any new ways of intervention?
 
Forgive me for not listing every single requirement to buying a gun, and thank you for pointing it out; however, it doesn’t change the point in considering the mental stability issue being touted as the cause, and not the tool used.

Anyone can purchase a gun, even illegal purchases by people who can falsify the form.

Wasn’t this person turned down because of his age?

How is mental deficiency determined?
That really does need to be addressed as part of any solution going forward. Any gun ban is going to be cosmetic, or worse, redirect the mentally unstable into even more deadly and spectaculary methods. There have been some posts on mass killings in the past which I wasn’t even aware of, but may catch the attention of one of these mentally ill people. Now they may consider a method they would not have been aware of before now.

A lot of press recently about the difficulty to get people into institutions even when their families knew they had serious issues. Our system, in the interests of unnecessarily violating people’s rights and confining them without merit, may be too biased toward an individuals rights vice the societies right to protect itself.
 
That really does need to be addressed as part of any solution going forward. Any gun ban is going to be cosmetic, or worse, redirect the mentally unstable into even more deadly and spectaculary methods. There have been some posts on mass killings in the past which I wasn’t even aware of, but may catch the attention of one of these mentally ill people. Now they may consider a method they would not have been aware of before now.

A lot of press recently about the difficulty to get people into institutions even when their families knew they had serious issues. Our system, in the interests of unnecessarily violating people’s rights and confining them without merit, may be too biased toward an individuals rights vice the societies right to protect itself.
Why does it always revert back to ‘gun ban’?

How is mental illness identified in the purchase of a gun? A check box on a form does not meet safe requirements. Also, it doesn’t not address the fact of undetected mental illness.

We have approximately 300 million guns in this country, of approximately 500 million people. It seems the argument is being deflected to determine the mental safety of potential owners, as opposed to determine the availability of a gun within person’s reach who has a mental illness.
 
Some of those in your list are required in the interest of the public. Why couldn’t we find some similar measures for gun ownership?
We can, if those measures don’t include bans.

Because bans eliminate a means for me to defend myself, and more importantly remove one of the checks and balances and separation of powers from our system of government, and provide no commesurate benefit that justifies those risks.

They also lead to more crime not less, they don’t address the problem. You never reduce crime by disarming the victims, you’ve simply created more attractive victims for the criminal.

The problem is two pronged. First, how do we keep people from wanting to do this in the first place? How do we eliminate the motive- it’s not money, it’s a desire for wanton destruction. Eliminate that, and the shootings/bombings/poisonings/gassings stop.

Second. How do we best protect the public in those cases where someone gets this idea?

I like the idea of insurance for gun owners, however, the poor in lousy neighborhoods are the ones who have the greatest need for access to weapons. I live in a pretty good neighborhood, I don’t have loaded weapons in my home. Well, unless a butcher knife on the counter is a loaded weapon. I can afford another type of insurace, or combine it with my homeowner’s (BTW, homeowner’s policies do require a declaration of firearm and there is some liability coverage) But others don’t have my advantages, I won’t be look Bloomberg and insist others make my same choices and accept my same risks. That’s tyranny. (And hyocrisy, he’s not disarming his security detail. But then, he thinks its the governments job to tell you how big a soda you can order/serve).

We do have to do a better job about the mentally ill. I don’t see a problem with banning weapons from a home with a dangerous person, even if it affects everyone there. If that person is an adult, they can live somewhere else. If a minor, than it is more important for the parent to address the mental issues than have a weapon around (basically insurance for the low-odds event of robbery/assault). US courts do this all the time. A man who worked for me had his wife pull a gun on him in their home. He disarmed her, but the court put a condition that for them to continue to live together, no firearms could be in the home.

We absolutely have to eliminate gun-free zones. This is a cosmetic, feel-good measure that has proven to be disastrous in practise. With the exception of the shooting of Rep Gifford, every public shooting in the US with more than 3 deaths since 1950 has occurred where the public couldn’t have firearms.

Police can not respond in time. Legally, it is not their job or responsibility to protect an individual or prevent crime. They enforce the laws.

Facebook and public/social media. Most of these folks post things, they are after noteriety, can we monitor for key phrases? Can we do a better job of people reporting their friends or relatives who post threateing/disturbing things?

A parent/friend/psychiatrist/teacher- anyone- should be able to swear out a statement that an individual may present a mental health threat citing a specific rational. That should lead to the person having a hearing/evaluation within 2 weeks. That hearing should result in a treatment including confinement or out-patient and access to weapons recommendation to be imposed by a court. That would include removing all firearms from their home.

I’m a big First Amendment/Free Speech supporter as well. But,
  • If they truly are being influenced by violence in the media, or video games— Is it time to eliminate them? Including the serial killer horror movies? Ok, millions watch or play without doing this, just like the vast majority of folks with access to guns don’t do this. But where is the idea coming from? And an idea is far more dangerous than a weapon. Given the idea, you’ll find the tool and there are far more deadly tools than guns.
  • Publicity. Is it time to stop publicizing all the info about the shooters? Do we invoke the ancient tradition of eliminating any reference to the person whatsoever. If they’re after noteriety, that eliminates it. Instead of being famous and known, their actions result in being wiped entirely from the historical record. Every photo, e-mail, letter, or trace right down to the birth certificate.
Shall issue concealed carry. In these spree shootings, the person stops when confronted by an armed opponent. Usually they kill themselves, as did the Oregon mall shooter when confronted by a CCW holder, ending the rampage. The earlier they’re confronted, the sooner the shooting stops. Allowing those law abiding US citizens the option to carry a weapon in self defense in combination with the elimination of gun-free zones distinctly reduces the incentive for the mentally ill person who wants publicity through a big body count. Note the lack of publicity in the cases which occur every day where no-one, or ‘only’ one or two people are killed when promptly confronted.
 
2 very simple questions:
  1. what makes the Bushmaster an “military-grade assault rifle”?
  2. Does the 2nd Amendment mention “Hunting”?
I think alot of the debate on the gun control side is based on a lack of understanding.
No, the 2nd Amendment talks about a “well-regulated militia”. I haven’t seen that any time recently, have you?
 
Forgive me for not listing every single requirement to buying a gun, and thank you for pointing it out; however, it doesn’t change the point in considering the mental stability issue being touted as the cause, and not the tool used.?
What?
Anyone can purchase a gun, even illegal purchases by people who can falsify the form.

Wasn’t this person turned down because of his age?

How is mental deficiency determined?
The FBI does a background check to verify that what you claim on the form is accurate - if you lie on the form you are subject to a 10 year prison sentence - if the Justice department is willing to prosecute. Under the Obama Administration firearm cases are down 40% from the Bush years.

I don’t know if he was underaged - if so he made an illegal attempt to purchase a firearm and was subject to a 10 year prison sentence.

If any lawful (legal) body determines you are mentally deficit those findings are to be reported to the FBI. If the mother had filed for disability on those grounds with the SS for her son this would be reported. Or if a person has been committed to a mental institution it is to be reported (Virginia Tech shooter).
 
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