Opposite-Sex Friends

[Orionthehunter]

Man what did I do now?

I think he is giving you a back-handed compliment as he believes that having opposite sex friends is bad because of the “appearance” of impropriety. If you go back to a previous post (#79), I gave a reaction to “appearances” and it expressed my opinion that if anyone reaches a conclusion based on “appearances” they are broaching on a near occassion of sin and if they tell anyone about it they are likely to be bearing false witness.

Upon reflection, people who worry about appearances are also perpetrating an attitude that impairs women’s ability to be successful in the workplace. As a father of three girls and a wife who before coming into my business had a professional job that required her to socialize with men, this is an issue that is near and dear to me.

I have a close friend whose wife is in an occupation that requires her to wine and dine customers (most of whom are men). This close friend has told me of people who have actually come up to him and told him that they saw his wife having dinner w/ a man. The first time it happened he told his wife of the conversation and it greatly bothered her that anyone would think such a thing of her that she asked whether she should look for a different line of work. Now, instead he unloads on the busy body and tells them to mind their own business and says nothing to his wife. These two people have a marriage that is above reproach and a great witness to everyone, including how much they trust each other.

 

[_Jenn]

soccerDad:

Jenn,

Wow, making your husband confront your friend. I would not want to be in his shoes. Is it not enough he feels uncomfortable? Would you have them fight too, western style?

Did I say I’d make him do it? No - I said I would ask him to - and knowing my dh, he’d suggest it before me - he’s the type to make sure everything is out in the open. And why does wanting all parties to have a mature conversation about something mean there would be a fight?

Anyway, knowing our friends, and knowing my dh, we won’t be dealing with this as an issue in our marriage.

 

[soccerDad]

Karin,

You didn’t do anything. I was complimenting your response to WindyFire12.

Orion,

I don’t want to give “backhanded” compliments. You are assuming you know my thoughts. I’ll try to be more clear next time. You are correct in assuming I am against close opposite sex friendships. I don’t think a woman’s obligations at work fit this description in most circumstances. That was a leap of logic I did not follow. My stance is not absolute. I realize their will be exceptions. I too have experience in this matter. The fact that we all have strong feelings regarding this topic, suggests that it has been a source of scrutiny in our lives on some level, which I feel supports my stance more than yours.

 

[soccerDad]

Jenn,

I was exaggerating. Openness and confrontation might work for you. But, as you say, you will never have to do this. I hope you’re right. Hope your friends never have to deal with it either. I will avoid the possibility, in hopes that I never have to deal with it, and in hopes I never put another in that situation, nor give the appearance that might lead yet another person into such a situation. Then again, who knows what friendships God might give me, or my wife.

 

[Orionthehunter]

soccerDad:

The fact that we all have strong feelings regarding this topic, suggests that it has been a source of scrutiny in our lives on some level, which I feel supports my stance more than yours.

I’m not following you here. I know that there are some marriages for which close opposite sex relationships are inappropriate. But I feel that for others it is acceptable. While certain things are always sinful (ie. stealing, etc.), having a philia love relationship with another person regardless of gender isn’t one of them.

And I’m unable to judge what is right for others and I don’t like the implication in any way that others can judge what is right for me. I don’t judge guys who are able to hunt and fish w/ what appears to be without limit and I don’ t like it when others judge me if I were to have an opposite sex friend that had the blessing of my wife. For those new to this discussion, I do have one from my childhood/high school years who is almost as dear to me as my sister.

Granted, if there were behavior that you knew was improper, I’d accept judgment and admonition. However, the people who oppose it are either projecting their negative experience in this regard to others, think it is a way for someone to “justify” their improper behavior by encouraging their spouse to have opposite sex friends (pardon me for wanting to laugh at this one even though I don’t know if I’m laughing at the absurdness of the statement or my own naiveness ), think it is inherently a near occassion of sin, or think it looks bad. In all cases, there is a judgment being passed without any knowledge about the actual nature of the relationship and acceptance of the other spouse.

Finally, for those situations where people are getting on shaky ground, I’m hopeful that they have friends who would counsel them on the dangers that they are going. For those who aren’t close enough to know the situation, they should mind there own business lest they become susceptible to gossip and bearing false witness.

 

[soccerDad]

I don’t like the feeling that others are judging me either. That’s one of the reasons why I try not to put myself in those situations.

We’ve all made some great points. I’m done. Thanks.

 

[rayne89]

WindyFire12:

Of the supporters of close opposite-sex friendship here how many would completely cut off a close friendship that their spouse has become uncomfortable with?

Absolutely I would. My husband comes before anyone else.

 

[gavin52]

Orionthehunter:

I’m not following you here. I know that there are some marriages for which close opposite sex relationships are inappropriate. But I feel that for others it is acceptable.

This is akin to saying it’s okay until something goes wrong. Obviously, if a spouse had a close opposite-sex relationship that went too far it would be easy to see that these type of friendships may not be appropriate because the unfaithful spouse has shown his/her ability to cross the line. We shouldn’t have to wait for a ‘mistake’ however. Do we really know whether a spouse will cross the line? Absolutely not. We don’t know for sure. Maybe we’d like to believe they wouldn’t but we can’t tell.

Orionthehunter:

While certain things are always sinful (ie. stealing, etc.), having a philia love relationship with another person regardless of gender isn’t one of them.

When that relationship becomes one that can be described as what I posted in the poll ‘Close Opposite-sex Friends’ it becomes sinful in many ways. Near occasion of sin, scandal, etc. And I know it’s been pointed out that what may be a near occasion of sin to one may not be to another. That may very well be true in certain situations like an alcoholic drinking beer. But I don’t feel this is one of them. We are naturally instilled to have an attraction for the opposite-sex (we are not naturally instilled with an attraction to alcohol…which is why being around alcohol is not sinful for everyone) and it’s not something we can just turn off at will. It’s part of our human nature. We are fallen and because of that we can’t say with 100% certainty that a relationship will not go the wrong way. We also can’t say that everyone who sees this relationship will not start thinking of a sinful situation. In scandal we are to avoid anything that ‘might’ bring scandal to the Church. Being married and also being close to another person of the opposite-sex could easily bring on scandal.

Orionthehunter:

In all cases, there is a judgment being passed without any knowledge about the actual nature of the relationship and acceptance of the other spouse.

No judgement is being passed on a person here. It’s judgement of the action which many think is wrong. If we couldn’t pass judgement on people actions without full knowledge of the situation we wouldn’t be able to judge anything. As an example, what about college roommates of opposite-sex living in an apartment together? We don’t know what they are doing behind closed doors. They may just be friends and nothing more. However, we can certainly say that what they are doing is a scandal. That’s a judgement on their behavior and it perfectly acceptible. Here, those that oppose opposite-sex friends have very valid reasons for believing it’s wrong and have used those reasons to pass judgement on the actions as being sinful.

Also, acceptance by a spouse does not make an action okay.

Orionthehunter:

Finally, for those situations where people are getting on shaky ground, I’m hopeful that they have friends who would counsel them on the dangers that they are going. For those who aren’t close enough to know the situation, they should mind there own business lest they become susceptible to gossip and bearing false witness.

It’s not gossip and/or false witness if one states that they believe what a person is doing sinful. It would be gossip and/or false witness if someone said I KNOW for a fact that their closer than just friends. Also, anything that I believe is a scandal or sinful IS my business because of what is does to the Body of Christ and it should be the business of ALL faithful Catholics.

 

[Karin]

gavin52:

. We are naturally instilled to have an attraction for the opposite-sex and it’s not something we can just turn off at will. .

Excuse me…As a female I am not attracted to every male that walks the Earth! The ONLY man that I am attracted to is my HUSBAND…I have never been attracted (sexually) to any of my male friends!

 

[LSK]

Excuse me…As a female I am not attracted to every male that walks the Earth! The ONLY man that I am attracted to is my HUSBAND…I have never been attracted (sexually) to any of my male friends!

Karin, when you have had the time to meet ever male on the face of the earth, let us know…

 

[Karin]

LSK:

Karin, when you have had the time to meet ever male on the face of the earth, let us know…

Not a problem…but I can say that with all certainty that of all the males I have met so far in my life …I have not been sexual attracted to any of them well except for my darling hubby!

 

[kage_ar]

Not a problem…but I can say that with all certainty that of all the males I have met so far in my life …I have not been sexual attracted to any of them well except for my darling hubby!

Ditto.

 

[Karin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin52
*. We are naturally instilled to have an attraction for the opposite-sex and it’s not something we can just turn off at will. *
Perhaps this is not an issue for woman as much as for men because we think with the head on our shoulders not the one between our legs?

 

[LSK]

Not a problem…but I can say that with all certainty that of all the males I have met so far in my life …I have not been sexual attracted to any of them well except for my darling hubby!

Good, we’ll all be waiting…

Now, having gotten the smart mouthed replies out of the way, I do disagree with the assessment that gavin made about not being able to ‘turn off’ our attraction at will…and, gavin, if I am making a distinction here between having an attraction and actually acting on that attraction, then we may not be in disagreement at all.

I still maintain that what we are truly talking about is prudence and respect for the relationship, Sacrament and Institution of Marriage. While I may have an attraction for a man, if that man is in a relationship and I know that it is my responsiblity to not act upon that attraction. The same goes for the men. I also think that, whatever has been decided upon by the couple themselves, should be respected and that the couple does not owe anyone but their confessor, God and each other an explanation as to what may or may not work for themselves.

There has been some excellent points brought up here regarding the obligation of each of us to lead our spouses and members of the Body of Christ TOWARDS heaven and not away from it. Our behavior does reflect upon the Church, and sometimes, personal sacrifices should be considered if it means that how we are perceived as Catholic Christians may either suffer or be advanced by our behavior. I am but a small part of a greater whole, and there is a virtue in both obedience and sacrifice, charity and love that needs to be examined as a Faithful Daughter of the Holy Mother Church.

Much of what has been shared has been based on personal experiences. Personal experiences change with time and age. I would hope that as my age advances and time goes on I will have a heart and mind open to learn and to change under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the Teachings of the His Bride, the Holy Mother Church. I wish all of you the same.

 

[rayne89]

Since this subject has all over the forum the last couple days I asked my hubby about the friendships I have with my male co-workers. He laughed “Oh come on “rayne” I know you, I’m not worried about that at all.” He said he has never had the least bit of concern about the friendships I have because he trusts me.

There are some on the forum that will refuse to believe to people of the opposite sex can have a completely platonic relationship no matter what anyone else says about it. I know my heart and my husband does too-he knows me better then anyone else on this earth. His feelings are what are most important to me. And since he is perfectly ok with it, I realize there is no need to me to defend my frienships to those who do not know me.

There are some people that will always believe that there will always be a sexual element to opposite sex friendships. Maybe that is the product of our sex obsessed society. We not St. John of the cross and St. Theresa of Avila close friends? Geez…

 

[LSK]

rayne89:

Since this subject has all over the forum the last couple days I asked my hubby about the friendships I have with my male co-workers. He laughed “Oh come on “rayne” I know you, I’m not worried about that at all.” He said he has never had the least bit of concern about the friendships I have because he trusts me.

There are some on the forum that will refuse to believe to people of the opposite sex can have a completely platonic relationship no matter what anyone else says about it. I know my heart and my husband does too-he knows me better then anyone else on this earth. His feelings are what are most important to me. And since he is perfectly ok with it, I realize there is no need to me to defend my frienships to those who do not know me.

There are some people that will always believe that there will always be a sexual element to opposite sex friendships. Maybe that is the product of our sex obsessed society. We not St. John of the cross and St. Theresa of Avila close friends? Geez…

Absolutely, Rayne! And the fact that you spoke about this with your husband and you have put this entire discussion into the context of Catholic Teachings without being sarcastic or taking pot shots at an entire gender proves to me that one can be an Obedient Faithful Daughter of the Holy Mother Church, a Real Feminist and think for herself all in one beautiful package. Thank you!

 

[Anne_Carmel]

Thank you for your participation in this discussion.