Optional Celibacy in the Priesthood

[FrAnthony1]

Hi what a great question Don and thanks for having the courage to speak out Pope Benedict has already convened the top brass at the Vatican to look at the issues surrounding the celibacy issue.What seems to be very unfair is that Anglican or Episcopal priests can be received “wife and kids too” and the poor old or young RC Priest has to resign. As a celebrate priest myself with no option but I support married priests as I am sure like my brother priests in the Anglican C:thumbsup:hurch they do a good job. Look at the many Old Catholic communities in the USA who are thriving with married priests. A Father can still be a Father with his kids around .Perhaps their would be less temptation to molest children too Fr Anthony

 

[mercer87]

Hi what a great question Don and thanks for having the courage to speak out Pope Benedict has already convened the top brass at the Vatican to look at the issues surrounding the celibacy issue.What seems to be very unfair is that Anglican or Episcopal priests can be received “wife and kids too” and the poor old or young RC Priest has to resign. As a celebrate priest myself with no option but I support married priests as I am sure like my brother priests in the Anglican C:thumbsup:hurch they do a good job. Look at the many Old Catholic communities in the USA who are thriving with married priests. A Father can still be a Father with his kids around .Perhaps their would be less temptation to molest children too Fr Anthony

Where did you hear this? I’d like to think it’s true but I need proof.

With regards to your final comment, a criminal is a criminal, regardless of marital status. Allowing a wicked man to be married would not stop him from preying on children and young adults.

 

[eucharisteo]

The priest scandals have nothing to do with whether or not preist were allowed to be married PRIOR to ordination. If a man is already ordained he is NOT allowed to marry afterwards. PERIOD. Now I’m not yelling, I’m just trying to emphasis. That is why I doubt that you truly are a priest. If you are, then I apologize. But I do not pull the punch so to speak about saying the following: you need catechesis desperately. Celebacy is a discipline that could be lifted by the Pope. I’ve hear this rumor for many years and find it totally unfounded and purely wishful thinking. Not even the priests in the Eastern Church are allowed to marry once they are ordained. Further, none of the bishop are allowed to be married, they are elevated to the episcopacy only from the celibate priests. The reason is that they have so much to do. And there is an oustanding pool of Protestants that can provide you with a litany of problems currently plaguing their ministers. I should know, we have a family full of them and know many scandalous relationships that ended up in divorce. Gotta go pick my son up from youth group. Peace.

 

[Dr_Mark_Sayers]

I am unsure how useful it is to connect discussion of optional celibacy for diocesan priests (as opposed to those in religious orders) with child molestation. The latter, tragic phenomenon has more to do with the training and screening of candidates for ordination as well as the culture of seminary life than it has to do with celibacy (although I concede that i have had to represent in court some priests who stupidly/disingenuously claimed that paedophilia was not a breach of celibacy as it was not sex with a woman -akin to the President Clinton defence).

I have no reason to suppose it likely that the Pope has “convened the top brass in the Vatican” to examine the issue of optional celibacy. If that is happening, then it would be a (welcome) surprise.

Generally speaking, I at least would be more comfortable if the issue was discussed in the context of the theology of vocation/priesthood as well as of ecclessiology and sacramental theology in the context of the church’s “obligation(?)” to find a way to provide the celebration of Eucharist to all its people. Globally, there is not an undersupply of priests but, mostly in Anglophone countries, there is a chronic shortage and communities are at risk of being deprived of Eucharist. If any practical necessity ought activate examination of the issue it should be that problem rather than the problem of keeping priests from molesting children.

 

[otjm]

I am unsure how useful it is to connect discussion of optional celibacy for diocesan priests (as opposed to those in religious orders) with child molestation. The latter, tragic phenomenon has more to do with the training and screening of candidates for ordination as well as the culture of seminary life than it has to do with celibacy (although I concede that i have had to represent in court some priests who stupidly/disingenuously claimed that paedophilia was not a breach of celibacy as it was not sex with a woman -akin to the President Clinton defence).

I have no reason to suppose it likely that the Pope has “convened the top brass in the Vatican” to examine the issue of optional celibacy. If that is happening, then it would be a (welcome) surprise.

Generally speaking, I at least would be more comfortable if the issue was discussed in the context of the theology of vocation/priesthood as well as of ecclessiology and sacramental theology in the context of the church’s “obligation(?)” to find a way to provide the celebration of Eucharist to all its people. Globally, there is not an undersupply of priests but, mostly in Anglophone countries, there is a chronic shortage and communities are at risk of being deprived of Eucharist. If any practical necessity ought activate examination of the issue it should be that problem rather than the problem of keeping priests from molesting children.

If there is indeed any discussion going on at "higher levels, it certainly is not well broadcast. But from where I sit (in the pew), it appears that we are to become a missionary country, with priests from India and Africa primarily, and some from central America (the Holy Spirit priests come to mind, although I don’t think that is their correct name).

And others herein may think that there is not an issue of justice; but I would submit that it is hard to describe the actions of the Roman hierarchy in any other terms; if we don’t want to discuss the issue of Roman rite ordinations of married men who inconveniently happen to be Catholic, then I would suggest we could get into the Roman rite supression of married clergy being allowed to minister to their flock when that flock so inconveniently happend to be residing in the US and is of an Eastern rite which has a married clergy. Sorry, but that rings of injustice in my book, not the action of the Holy Spirit.

I haev met those before who have the feeling that any criticism of the Church or its members is scandal and must be supressed. That smacks of clericalism, and we have had a thorough dose of what clericalism gets us when it all gets swept under the carpet; in the case of my archdioces, it was bankruptcy. Will we ever learn?

 

[eucharisteo]

When I attended seminary we were 98 strong. The numbers went down dramatically as a result of poor formation and the culture of the seminary very spiritually depraved of orthodoxy and transformation. It sickened me, shocked me more likely. That generation that “trained” us was a very questionable group. I heard things I’ve never heard before in any other culture other than maybe that sounding porn. I had many issues being of a more orthodox Catholic faith that seemed dead in the “real world” as they say. In spite of all of this I keep hearing that the seminaries are filling up again. However, I still do not see the numbers climb to what it was when I was in. If however the orthodoxy of the formation truly calls in to completion more priests that will ultimately prove the effectiveness of the new evangelism.

Personally, I would welcome a married priesthood having grown up around married Protestant clergy. It seems normal to me and extraordinary to find celibates. I love the celibate priesthood though, but I personally believe af combination would benefit the Church. As long as Permanent Deacons are treated like altar servers their effectiveness as an example for the family unit will wain. I believe that maybe some of the married clergy should be graduatlly ordained from the more orthodox and best proven example clergy, permanent deacons. Catholics in general seem to have taken the scandals of marriage to a new level and need to be reeled in to conversion. Just my thoughts.

The part that really gets me is women pushing to become clergy. It points to Genesis 3:16 and the fall of man.

 

[FrAnthony1]

Hi well it looks as if we have a healthy open discussion. Those who want to retain celibacy those who want change and those who want to sit on the fence. My pet hate is the use of the word Protestant this smacks of sectarianism can we not use the terms as Jesus would demand of fellow Christians, it has a nice Christian ring to it doesn’t you think. I do agree with the person who said permanent deacons were treated like" altar boys" I agree and when I complained to the parish priest .He in turn complained to my Bishop who moved me to a teaching post in a Seminary and the deacon applied for special status as his wife had died tragically of cancer and is now a parish priest himself. Best decision the bishop ever made as I am now Head of Dept and 450 students under my care. .I look forward to married catholic priests and please God female priests. After all when we go to the Altar of God we leave our gender aside. Shalom Fr Anthony

 

[mercer87]

When I attended seminary we were 98 strong. The numbers went down dramatically as a result of poor formation and the culture of the seminary very spiritually depraved of orthodoxy and transformation. It sickened me, shocked me more likely. That generation that “trained” us was a very questionable group. I heard things I’ve never heard before in any other culture other than maybe that sounding porn. I had many issues being of a more orthodox Catholic faith that seemed dead in the “real world” as they say. In spite of all of this I keep hearing that the seminaries are filling up again. However, I still do not see the numbers climb to what it was when I was in. If however the orthodoxy of the formation truly calls in to completion more priests that will ultimately prove the effectiveness of the new evangelism.

Personally, I would welcome a married priesthood having grown up around married Protestant clergy. It seems normal to me and extraordinary to find celibates. I love the celibate priesthood though, but I personally believe af combination would benefit the Church. As long as Permanent Deacons are treated like altar servers their effectiveness as an example for the family unit will wain. I believe that maybe some of the married clergy should be graduatlly ordained from the more orthodox and best proven example clergy, permanent deacons. Catholics in general seem to have taken the scandals of marriage to a new level and need to be reeled in to conversion. Just my thoughts.

The part that really gets me is women pushing to become clergy. It points to Genesis 3:16 and the fall of man.

I agree with this. I’d be more than willing to spend time (even an extended amount) as a deacon and then be evaluated to promotion to the presbyterate. All I ask for is a chance to do so without being sneered at and swiftly dismissed by the hierarchy.

 

[eucharisteo]

Women can never be ore receive ordination anymore than a person can be baptized a second time. You need to did deeper. With 450 under your care I fear the future of our faith. If you succeed, I will most definitly go the the Eastern Church since this would be the straw that breaks the camel’s back proving once and for al that the Catholic Church is not the true Church and that it must be the Eastern Church. My thoughts. There’s a huge difference between accepting married me to the priesthood and trying to say a bunch of prayers over a woman and act like she’s a priest. You are deeply troubled and need to reel in your faith and return to reading the ancient church fathers on this.

 

[JReducation]

.I look forward to married catholic priests and please God female priests. After all when we go to the Altar of God we leave our gender aside. Shalom Fr Anthony

With all due respect, Father, as much as I would like to see married men ordained there are two points that one must face here.

1. While the Holy Father maintains this discipline in place, we are called to obey and to respond to this question in communion with him.
2. Pope John Paul II put the ordination of women to rest during his pontificate. I believe that his statement was very clear when he said that the Church does not have the authority to do this. The Church is not a democracy where we can take a vote and do what we are not authorized to do. We are a hierarchy of Truth and Charity. If the truth is that we do not have the authority to ordain women, it is what it is.

Therefore, it behooves you as a priest and me as a religious to teach the Truth on these matters, not our personal opinions. The ordination of women is a matter of faith, not a matter of discipline. No where in revelation are women chosen to lead preside at the sacrifice, to preach the Word, or to administer the sacraments. The Fathers of the Church received the tradition of an all male priesthood from the Apostles before them. This is a matter of sacred Tradition.

I believe that you and I may express our opinions on many points on which the Church speaks. But when it comes to sacred Tradition, you as a priest and me as a friar, do not have the luxury of publicly contradicting the Sacred Tradition, by suggesting that we pray for the ordination of women, when such has been stated as impossible by the competent Church authority, the Holy Father.

Please accept my apology, if I offend in any way.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[eucharisteo]

Br. JR,
You are much more charitable than I can be on this subject. It was priests like this that caused me so much scandal I came to believe definitively that the Catholic Church must not be the one true Church founded by Christ and thus I went on the search of a life time looking for truth. No one seemed to correct these guys. The stories are endless and filled with many scandalous behaviors while performing illicit activities during the mass.

I love the way you put it, JPII did put it to rest. This is NOT a matter of discipline and just because I placed all caps on “not” does make it so; Sacred Tradition makes it so. To lose Sacred Tradition on this point would create a major domino effect and then something would be desperately wrong and the Church would have to submit to the Eastern Church to help them figure things out. I’ve heard many Orthodox Christians claim that the Catholic Church is the first protestant church. If the Holy Father ever gave in to this we’d be in serious trouble and the walls would definitely cave in making it evident that this is not the real Church that Christ founded. If this happens this would mean that the Gates of Hell did prevail against it and thus we would have to take a closer look at what happened and rethink the last 1000 years of Western Church teachings. It doesn’t take a theologian to figure this out.

I will say some major prayers for you Fr. Anthony. Calling you Fr. is like stabbing me in the chest because I’m way to troubled by your comments that are not faithful the the teachings of the Church. Why would you submit to such a heterodox teaching?

PAX Christi tecum
Eucharisteo

 

[JReducation]

Br. JR,
You are much more charitable than I can be on this subject. It was priests like this that caused me so much scandal I came to believe definitively that the Catholic Church must not be the one true Church founded by Christ and thus I went on the search of a life time looking for truth. No one seemed to correct these guys. The stories are endless and filled with many scandalous behaviors while performing illicit activities during the mass.

I love the way you put it, JPII did put it to rest. This is NOT a matter of discipline and just because I placed all caps on “not” does make it so; Sacred Tradition makes it so. To lose Sacred Tradition on this point would create a major domino effect and then something would be desperately wrong and the Church would have to submit to the Eastern Church to help them figure things out. I’ve heard many Orthodox Christians claim that the Catholic Church is the first protestant church. If the Holy Father ever gave in to this we’d be in serious trouble and the walls would definitely cave in making it evident that this is not the real Church that Christ founded. If this happens this would mean that the Gates of Hell did prevail against it and thus we would have to take a closer look at what happened and rethink the last 1000 years of Western Church teachings. It doesn’t take a theologian to figure this out.

I will say some major prayers for you Fr. Anthony. Calling you Fr. is like stabbing me in the chest because I’m way to troubled by your comments that are not faithful the the teachings of the Church. Why would you submit to such a heterodox teaching?

PAX Christi tecum
Eucharisteo

I do not believe that we will ever see the ordination of women, because it is in conflict with sacred tradition. Even when we look back at the Old Testament, we see the Church foreshadowed in so many events and personalities. In every instance, we see a male leadership. This does not mean that there is no place for women in the Church. Even in the Old Testament and the New. we see women in many important roles.

In the Judaic tradition it is the mother who is the keepr of the faith in the family. The lineage is handed down by the father, but the faith is sustained by the mother. We see women of great courage and great witness such as Ruth, Judith, Mary of Magdala and Ana in the temple when Mary and Joseph go for the presentation. These were prophetic and heroic women.

In the Gospels we see the Good News of the Incarnation is first revealed to a woman, Mary of Nazareth and the Good News of the Resurrection is first revealed to a woman, Mary of Magdala. Women are definitely in God’s plan of salvtion and are called to proclaim the Good News and to protect the faith. However, they are called to do so from their lay state, not as part of the Patriarchs in the Old Testament or the college of the Apostles in the New Testament.

That being said, you mention that you are having difficulty addressing Father Anthony by his proper title. That is something that you must work on. None of us are perfect. But that does not change the reality of who we are. We should always show the proper respect that is due to every person, even when we disagree. Think of your parents. Did you always agree with them? Did you stop referring calling them Mom and Dad, because they were mistaken or because you disagreed with them? I’m sure you continued to call them Mom and Dad. That is because relationships are based on many factors. Two important ones are love and respect, even when there are problems.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[mercer87]

Despite my misgivings concerning the discipline of celibacy, which I have made known throughout this thread, I would not put forth heterodox teachings like allowing the ordination of women, which has been defined as doctrine. Statements like the ones Father has made are the ones that put orthodox Catholics off of ordaining the married because it looks like the Church is submitting to liberal heterodoxy. They’re apples and oranges, really. The Roman Catholic Church has had a history of married clergy which they squashed for several reasons. Are those reasons still relevant today, or should they be lifted?

As Brother knows, we’re going through the First Letter to Timothy in the Divine Office this week. Something I read in Wednesday’s passage shook me a little (I’m almost certain I’m taking it out of context, but it still troubled me). “The Spirit distinctly says that in later times some will turn away from the faith and will heed deceitful spirits and things taught by demons through plausible liars-- men with seared consciences who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by believers who know the truth.”

I interpreted the food as the Eucharist, but what’s with the forbidding of marriage? Was there a heresy brewing in the early Church that forbade marriage?

 

[JReducation]

Despite my misgivings concerning the discipline of celibacy, which I have made known throughout this thread, I would not put forth heterodox teachings like allowing the ordination of women, which has been defined as doctrine. Statements like the ones Father has made are the ones that put orthodox Catholics off of ordaining the married because it looks like the Church is submitting to liberal heterodoxy. They’re apples and oranges, really. The Roman Catholic Church has had a history of married clergy which they squashed for several reasons. Are those reasons still relevant today, or should they be lifted?

As Brother knows, we’re going through the First Letter to Timothy in the Divine Office this week. Something I read in Wednesday’s passage shook me a little (I’m almost certain I’m taking it out of context, but it still troubled me). “The Spirit distinctly says that in later times some will turn away from the faith and will heed deceitful spirits and things taught by demons through plausible liars-- men with seared consciences who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by believers who know the truth.”

I interpreted the food as the Eucharist, but what’s with the forbidding of marriage? Was there a heresy brewing in the early Church that forbade marriage?

We use the Franciscan Liturgy of the Hours, so we’re on a different set of readings. But I know the passage. The passage was written as a condemnation of the practices of pagan temples where people were bound to a life of celibacy for the sake of the pagan gods and gifts of fruits were offered to these gods and humans were allowed to suffer. Paul is juxtaposing this behavior to the Good News where men and women remain celibate for the Kingdom of God and who have a sense of justice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[mercer87]

I have a Franciscan breviary a friend gave me that’s pretty much the mainstream Divine Office with some Franciscan feast days cordoned off at the back, lol. I appreciate the explanation, Brother. That settles me down a bit. Now I can sleep, lol.

 

[JReducation]

I have a Franciscan breviary a friend gave me that’s pretty much the mainstream Divine Office with some Franciscan feast days cordoned off at the back, lol. I appreciate the explanation, Brother. That settles me down a bit. Now I can sleep, lol.

Good. I’m glad that you will abe able to sleep. Me? Well I’m on call until 7:00 pm in case we have any girls (OR MEN) who are in crisis and need to talk to someone during the middle of the night. Oh well, that’s all a day in a brother’s life. In any case, the brothers will be up at 4:00, so I won’t get bored.

That breviary sounds like the single volume Christian Prayer with the Francisan insert. I use the four volume Franciscan breviary.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[mercer87]

Actually it is a four volume breviary. It’s the same colors as the mainstream breviary but with a Franciscan crest on the front.

 

[JReducation]

Actually it is a four volume breviary. It’s the same colors as the mainstream breviary but with a Franciscan crest on the front.

It should say Roman-Franciscan Breviary. Is that the one that you use?

Br. JR, OSF

 

[FrAnthony1]

members.iinet.net.au/~mmjournl/MaryMartha/MINISTRY%20AND%20ORDINATION%20/Restoration% The early church always had female deacons (not deaconesses) and over 40 of them went on to be saints. Historical documents by eminent professors at Oxford, Yale, Harvard and Cambridge has proved that the early church writings were so heavily edited to discriminate against women that the names of the apostles was edited and that two of those apostles were in fact women. To say that the church can not ordain women when history says different is a non starter . During the second world war the Vatican ordained two female priests in Eastern Poland and one is still living today. Pope Pius then asked if they would lay aside their ordination for the sake of the church both did and returned to the lay state. Women have a natural affinity for the priesthood I myself attended Anglican and Old Catholic services where the priest was female and it was a wonderful experience of Grace . It will be the Holy Father guided by the Holy Spirit that will make the final decision on both married men and female priests and I hope please GOD to see it in my lifetime So lets not see the messengers gender issues but the Preaching of the Good News as the most important fact for this centaury. Lets drop the Brand Names see all our co-workers as faith enablers and crack on. Islam is just around the corner and they take no hostages Fr Anthony20of%20Diaconate.html

 

[mercer87]

It should say Roman-Franciscan Breviary. Is that the one that you use?

Br. JR, OSF

Yes it is.