Opus Dei- opinions

[Ridgerunner]

I’m very much on the outside of this and perhaps shouldn’t speak. But my impressions are all favorable.

My son spent a summer as a volunteer instructor at OD’s school in the South Bronx. On occasion, he got to go to their headquarters in Manhattan. Meals are good, but spare. After dinner, there was a sort of social/educational time in which one could drink a glass of wine or a beer (one) and listen to various member presenters who spoke on all kinds of topics from the writings of the Church Fathers to Wall Street finance to nuclear physics. Those people all work “out in the world” in their various lines of endeavor, and some of them are staggeringly impressive.

He liked the people very much, and found them very impressive as Catholics and as human beings.

There is no OD chapter where I live, or anywhere near it. But basically I admire the organization and the people in it.

Oh, yes. I did meet a young lady, a genius really, who had been to some living place of theirs repeatedly and was going to join. I was very favorably impressed by her as well.

 

[Baelor]

So you’ve now narrowed down your issue to what you think a female numerary member is or is not allowed to wear in a residence.

No, that is inaccurate on several grounds – first, I do not have an issue with OD, but rather find very particular aspects problematic. Second, I never distinguished between males and females in terms of dress, nor is the dress the only thing that I find problematic, so that is not what my issue is narrowed down to. I am really confused as to how you reached that conclusion.

and I don’t think you can do that either, at least not directly, and you’re drawing off of the basis of a small sampling.

I do know what the men in the local OD house are required to wear. Not having been in a female house, I operate based on what the female numeraries I know have told me.

So net…the slice of pie of Opus Dei bearing even remotely on dress is about less than 1%. So we’ve put your issue into some perspective. Actually less than this when you realize that female numeraries make up a proportionately small percentage of members. This was useful in bounding your concern.

I never said that the dress issue was a concern. I also never said that it was an important part of OD. I also never said that I considered it particularly important. I also am not speaking about distinctions between male and female numeraries, so I do not know why that is an issue here.

So you are really not telling anyone anything new, since everything you just said was obvious from my first post.

 

[Edward_H]

No, that is inaccurate on several grounds – first, I do not have an issue with OD, but rather find very particular aspects problematic. Second, I never distinguished between males and females in terms of dress, nor is the dress the only thing that I find problematic, so that is not what my issue is narrowed down to. I am really confused as to how you reached that conclusion.

I do know what the men in the local OD house are required to wear. Not having been in a female house, I operate based on what the female numeraries I know have told me.

I never said that the dress issue was a concern. I also never said that it was an important part of OD. I also never said that I considered it particularly important. I also am not speaking about distinctions between male and female numeraries, so I do not know why that is an issue here.

So you are really not telling anyone anything new, since everything you just said was obvious from my first post.

Not issues but concerns…hmmm. I am an engineer…so I like to define things…and rule them in or out of ‘classes’. Is there a substantial difference between “issue” and “concern”?

I have gone through your last posts…and they’re confusing…is an “unimportant concern” worth even mentioning? (Not an issue a concern…not important anyway).

So now it’s NOT dress…we can cross that off based on your latest post.

“Special days” I explained above. If you’re not in the family you might not appreciate them…and as I said it’s nothing mandatory or heavy about it.

There’s just not enough here to get a toehold on.

 

[Baelor]

Not issues but concers…hmmm. I am an engineer…so I like to define things…and rule them in or out of ‘classes’. Is there a substantial difference between “issue” and “concern”?

I said a found particular things problematic. Let us call them problems with OD for your sake.

I have gone through your last posts…and they’re confusing…is an “unimportant concern” worth even mentioning? (Not an issue a concern…not important anyway).

Insofar as it exists, yes.

So now it’s NOT dress…we can cross that off based on your latest post.

It is, as I stated. At no point did I state that dress was not problematic.

“Special days” I explained above. If you’re not in the family you might not appreciate them…and as I said it’s nothing mandatory or heavy about it.

Having lived in an OD house, I did find the number of days unnecessary and almost isolating.

 

[Edward_H]

At no point did I state that dress was not problematic.

To be exact you said one post ago.

I never said that the dress issue was a concern. I also never said that it was an important part of OD. I also never said that I considered it particularly important.

So now we have issue, concern, problem. You’re all over the map.

And whether you think the days are unnecessary is your opinion from outside a group. As long as we understand the limits of your vantage point.

It’s sort of like being a very welcome guest in a house…and you have issues with how they celebrate various family events.

 

[Baelor]

To be exact you said one post ago.

No, I did not. I have maintained from the beginning the following:
Myself:

That being said, I find all of the following problematic:
guardai:

• so many festive occasions are celebrated during the year which have exclusively to do with OD: birthdays, name days, death anniversaries, etc. of OD’s founder, the successor of the founder, the successor of the successor of the founder, first holy Communion of the founder… all this seems rather exaggerated. The Church has so many treasures, so it’s a shame that attention is limited to OD so much.
• very strict separation between men and women.
• many things seem very elitist, e.g. the choice of dress, food, language, etc.

Stick to my terminology and we avoid all issues.

And whether you think the days are unnecessary is your opinion from outside a group. As long as we understand the limits of your vantage point.

The limits of my vantage point are nonexistent vis-a-vis the validity of my statements. Either they are correct or they are not. This is independent of any personal experience I may have or my own status.

It’s sort of like being a very welcome guest in a house…and you have issues with how they celebrate various family events.

There is no problem in the scenario described.

 

[Edward_H]

How are we to parse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baelor
**At no point did I state that dress was not problematic.
**

One post away from

Quote:
I never said that the dress issue was a concern. I also never said that it was an important part of OD. I also never said that I considered it particularly important.

'In essence ‘never said not a problem’ Is a poor construction.

Is dress a problem or not…I am using your own posts.

 

[Baelor]

How are we to parse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baelor
**At no point did I state that dress was not problematic.
**
Quote:
I never said that the dress issue was a concern. I also never said that it was an important part of OD. I also never said that I considered it particularly important.

We parse it easily by using my terminology:
Myself:

That being said, I find all of the following problematic:

The astute reader may note that I never said the dress was not problematic. Even the sloppy reader will note my appeal to terminology made in the post prior to this very one – I find aspects problematic, let us call them problems.

 

[Edward_H]

We parse it easily by using my terminology:

But you also said “I never said that the dress issue was a concern. I also never said that it was an important part of OD. I also never said that I considered it particularly important.”

 

[Baelor]

But your most recent was “At no point did I state that dress was not problematic.”

Which is true. Could you please quote me where I say that the dress requirements were not a problem, using some combination of those very words?

 

[Edward_H]

Which is true. Could you please quote me where I say that the dress requirements were not a problem, using some combination of those very words?

Your post 42 near bottom

 

[Edward_H]

In 42 you said

“I never said that the dress issue was a concern. I also never said that it was an important part of OD. I also never said that I considered it particularly important.”

 

[Edward_H]

Which is true. Could you please quote me where I say that the dress requirements were not a problem, using some combination of those very words?

You’re all over the map…concern, not a concern, not a big concern, problematic not problematic…issue, not a issue.

Let me take leave.

 

[Baelor]

You’re all over the map…concern, not a concern, not a big concern, problematic not problematic…issue, not a issue.

Let me take leave here

Edward, I am surprised because you are looking for precision but unwilling to acknowledge it.

I asked the following:
Myself:

Which is true. Could you please quote me where I say that the dress requirements were not a problem, using some combination of those very words?

You then respond with the following quotation:
Myself:

"I never said that the dress issue was a concern.

You will note that that statement does not use the word “problem,” which means that I did not use “those very words.” “Problem” and “concern” are not synonymous. I have not used them interchangeably, and I have even said that I would like to use the word “problem” to refer to the problems I have.

I really cannot be any clearer here. I am sorry if my posts confused you.

 

[Edward_H]

Edward, I am surprised because you are looking for precision but unwilling to acknowledge it.

I asked the following:

You then respond with the following quotation:

You will note that that statement does not use the word “problem,” which means that I did not use “those very words.” “Problem” and “concern” are not synonymous. I have not used them interchangeably, and I have even said that I would like to use the word “problem” to refer to the problems I have.

I really cannot be any clearer here. I am sorry if my posts confused you.

Yes but you also said today:

“I never said that the dress issue was a concern. I also never said that it was an important part of OD. I also never said that I considered it particularly important.”

You don’t see confusion you’re leaving all over this forum?

 

[Baelor]

Yes but you also said today:

“I never said that the dress issue was a concern. I also never said that it was an important part of OD. I also never said that I considered it particularly important.”

You don’t see confusion you’re leaving all over this forum?

No one should be confused. I in my posts never referred to the problems I had with OD as anything but problems. Not issues, not concerns, but problems. I also clarified this from posts 44 onwards. There is no reason that anyone should be confused.

Frankly, this has been useless, since none of the problems listed have even been addressed.

 

[Marcin_L]

A few months ago I got interested in The Work and started reading & inquiring. The more I read the more I could hear God’s call. I had been saved from really evil things in my life previously by the Lord’s grace I believe, so when I sensed this call I felt I was summoned to pay back for whatever good I had received.

Initially I was wrestling with the call, I didn’t like the idea of 100% commitment, the notion of daily norms etc.

• If I think or try to think of God at every moment of your life, do I not get exhausted of it?
• Am I able to think of my work as a gift to God?
• Am I capable of thinking of “hidden” jobs as equally important because God sees them?
• Can I smile in most uncomfortable situations thinking that I cannot be as bad as the Passion of Jesus?
• Can I thank God for my enemies for they help me in my sanctification?
• Can I give EVERYTHING to Him?

I obeyed the call anyway.

I started praying more frequently (well, let’s be honest, I actually started praying). I got hold of a few books by St Josemaria and read a bit everyday. I undusted my copy of the Gospel.

After a month I felt ready to take the next step. I searched the Internet for the nearest Opus Dei centre and… here we go! … there was one in my very town! I found the contact name and email address and sent a message. After two days I got a reply and invitation to the centre for a chat.

I went quite unsure what to think of it all. I was beginning to be doubtful about the whole idea, the house where the centre was located did not have any plate outside and I managed to come across a few negative comments on Opus Dei on the Internet in the meantime as well as a couple of stigmatizing Youtube videos. See, these are the moments when it is easiest for the devil to approach us and discourage. Despite doubts and suspicions, I went on.
The guy I met was called Jim and he looked like a typical middle aged English man. He looked at the watch as soon as I passed the doorstep and nodded with satisfaction (later I was going to find out that faithful of the Prelature try do do everything very very well, punctuality included).
Jim had a very good long chat with me, described briefly what I already knew of The Work and wanted to know an awful lot about myself. Finally, he invited me to the next Evening of Recollection in a month time.

I decided to carry on with what I was doing in the meantime, which was prayer, daily Mass as often as I was able and regular Reconciliation.
Two days ago the time came to attend my first Evening of Recollection.
It was in a way as I had expected it to be, with some surprise elements though. Most liturgy, for example, was said in Latin, which was a very intriguing experience. Also, you could sense the atmosphere of friendliness and joy, as if we were all a bunch of old friends, although half of the people had never been to this particular centre before.
After the Benediction, I approached the priest to ask him for any contact details as I imagined my further formation would be in his charge. He turned up to be based in London and only “covering” for the full time priest, who is normally based in the centre.

I feel a bit “left by myself” now. Should I approach Jim again for further formation or should I seek it myself? Is there anything else available apart from monthly Evening of Recollection which I will be definitely attending? Or is it something I would only get upon member application? I admit I am seriously thinking of doing this but as St Josemaria writes, it is not the decision to be made lightly.

Does anybody have any experience in these matters?

God bless!

(I’m sorry for possible errors, my first language isn’t English)

 

[tafan]

That being said, I find all of the following problematic:

Two of your problems, I will address.

1. strict seperation of men and women. Why is Opus Dei singled out for this criticism? Every Catholic religious order is segregated by sex. There are Dominican friars and Dominican nuns, I doubt you find that problematic. Although not a religious order, Opus Dei works along those same lines: for all practical purposes the men’s Opus Dei and the women’s Opus Dei are 2 different organizations. They recognize spirituality is different between men and women, the obviously do not want scandals among their celibate members, and they respect women enough to let them manage there own affairs. All of this is inline with 100s of years of Catholic practices. Why the problem?

As the their dress and good being elitist, that is certainly a misrepresentation of what is going on. The believe in sanctifying daily life, and that means everything has dignity and goodness. Sloppiness in dress or eating would go directly against their ideals.

 

[Edward_H]

A few months ago I got interested in The Work and started reading & inquiring. The more I read the more I could hear God’s call. I had been saved from really evil things in my life previously by the Lord’s grace I believe, so when I sensed this call I felt I was summoned to pay back for whatever good I had received.

Does anybody have any experience in these matters?

God bless!

(I’m sorry for possible errors, my first language isn’t English)

Hi. You’ve given a good recap of your searching and experiences. Well done so far. There tends to be sort of an operating bias toward letting the searcher initiate, and continue to initiate This myth in the press about “heavy recruiting”, “pressure to join” is just that, a myth. There may be some exceptions but for the most part the Work sets up sort of a “don’t make it too easy” on anyone tone; it’s just part of the spirituality. The Work requires struggling and “beginning again”. This means that you will need to initiate the next steps. Most priests don’t have the dominant role in formation or in giving personal direction in Opus Dei. They are there for the sacraments, and to teach classes on doctrine. The doctrinal classes in Opus Dei are very substantial…and are taught by priests. The other classes on virtues, aspects of Christian living, are taught by mostly Numerary members, or experienced supernumerary members.

I would go back to Jim, and ask for a schedule of recollections going forward. In most recollections there are 2 meditations given by a priest and a practical talk given by a Numerary. Formation is given in “little” amounts, gently, naturally, slowly. Over time you will be given classes on a large number of topics, and you will hear them repeated, though in never the same way. And this sort of builds up a more steady sort of knowledge and skills on a wide range of topics.

So consider attending recollections once a month. Ask Jim about “cooperators’ circles” that may be set up in your area. These can be run by supernumerary members (mostly) or numerary members. This is another “means of formation”. A circle consists of an opening prayer, a reading of that day’s Gospel, short commentary on the passage, often from a “pastoral” or practical point of view, a short talk or class on some topic…e.g., cheerfulness, joy, generosity, fortitude, the Holy Mass, sacrifice, mortification, Confession, a short examination of conscience, closing prayers. 30 minutes!

There are also retreats available. These are rock solid. At a center there are often doctrine classes as well.

So first step would be to get back with Jim.

 

[Marcin_L]

Hi. You’ve given a good recap of your searching and experiences. Well done so far. There tends to be sort of an operating bias toward letting the searcher initiate, and continue to initiate This myth in the press about “heavy recruiting”, “pressure to join” is just that, a myth. There may be some exceptions but for the most part the Work sets up sort of a “don’t make it too easy” on anyone tone; it’s just part of the spirituality. The Work requires struggling and “beginning again”. This means that you will need to initiate the next steps. Most priests don’t have the dominant role in formation or in giving personal direction in Opus Dei. They are there for the sacraments, and to teach classes on doctrine. The doctrinal classes in Opus Dei are very substantial…and are taught by priests. The other classes on virtues, aspects of Christian living, are taught by mostly Numerary members, or experienced supernumerary members.

I would go back to Jim, and ask for a schedule of recollections going forward. In most recollections there are 2 meditations given by a priest and a practical talk given by a Numerary. Formation is given in “little” amounts, gently, naturally, slowly. Over time you will be given classes on a large number of topics, and you will hear them repeated, though in never the same way. And this sort of builds up a more steady sort of knowledge and skills on a wide range of topics.

So consider attending recollections once a month. Ask Jim about “cooperators’ circles” that may be set up in your area. These can be run by supernumerary members (mostly) or numerary members. This is another “means of formation”. A circle consists of an opening prayer, a reading of that day’s Gospel, short commentary on the passage, often from a “pastoral” or practical point of view, a short talk or class on some topic…e.g., cheerfulness, joy, generosity, fortitude, the Holy Mass, sacrifice, mortification, Confession, a short examination of conscience, closing prayers. 30 minutes!

There are also retreats available. These are rock solid. At a center there are often doctrine classes as well.

So first step would be to get back with Jim.

Many thanks for your reply Edward,
I will certainly continue to attend monthly recollections. They appear to be really inspirational and give good focus on things.
I have already emailed Jim to get advice on further steps but I will ask him about cooperators circles in my area as well. These seem to be a good idea as groups are smaller and meetings more frequent. And I imagine you get can in touch with like minded people.

Thank you again for encouragement and practical information.

God bless

Marcin