Opus Dei- opinions

[Baelor]

1. strict seperation of men and women. Why is Opus Dei singled out for this criticism?

My problem is that the numerary assistant position is bafflingly reserved for females. Is that not the case?

As the their dress and good being elitist, that is certainly a misrepresentation of what is going on. The believe in sanctifying daily life, and that means everything has dignity and goodness. Sloppiness in dress or eating would go directly against their ideals.

Then they are elitist. I fail to see how wearing sweatpants inside my own home is “sloppy.”

 

[tafan]

My problem is that the numerary assistant position is bafflingly reserved for females. Is that not the case?

Then they are elitist. I fail to see how wearing sweatpants inside my own home is “sloppy.”

I was responding to two of the three problems you referred to in post 35. The problem you have with auxiliary numeraies was not on the list. I can only say that these women freely choose that life of service and that they receive quite extensive spiritual and theological formation beyond their domestic duties. Who are we to judge them?

As to not wearing sweatpants inside your home, I cannot say I am familiar with that aspect of their teachings. As I said before, teaching people to look nice is not elitist. Making oneself pleasant to others, including one’s own family, seems quite virtuous to me.

 

[Edward_H]

My problem is that the numerary assistant position is bafflingly reserved for females. Is that not the case?

Then they are elitist. I fail to see how wearing sweatpants inside my own home is “sloppy.”

Oh, sorry, I was under the impression that you were not a member of Opus Dei, and were instead staying in an Opus Dei student center as a guest student. Guests aren’t by definition in their own home, yes?

When you visit others, when you stay with others as a guest, under your own free choice, don’t you try to give a little bit of effort to look pleasant, to put some love into your visit, or do you instead treat every place as if it’s yours? Do you try to add to the tone or do you just not care because you think you’re at home?

I am beginning to see why the spirituality of the Work didn’t fit well with you.

 

[Baelor]

I was responding to two of the three problems you referred to in post 35.

Correct. I quoted another poster who had concerns. Please see my earlier response:
"Myself:

The houses still involve strict separation. Also, numerary assistants may only be women.

This came almost immediately after post 35.

I can only say that these women freely choose that life of service and that they receive quite extensive spiritual and theological formation beyond their domestic duties. Who are we to judge them?

We are not to judge them, nor should we. I can, however, question why an organization reserves this role for women.

As to not wearing sweatpants inside your home, I cannot say I am familiar with that aspect of their teachings. As I said before, teaching people to look nice is not elitist. Making oneself pleasant to others, including one’s own family, seems quite virtuous to me.

Again, the notion that slacks and an Oxford = “looking nice” and “pleasant” and “virtuous” is problematic. If elitist is a confusing term, let us abandon it in favor of something clearer.

Oh, sorry, I was under the impression that you were not a member of Opus Dei, and were instead staying in an Opus Dei student center as a guest student. Guests aren’t by definition in their own home, yes?

I am not a member of Opus Dei and I was staying as a guest. How does that affect what I say in any way? The rules I describe are not limited to guests.

When you visit others, when you stay with others as a guest, under your own free choice, don’t you try to give a little bit of effort to look pleasant,

My hosts would never care about what I wear. I would never care about what my guests wear unless it were gravely immoral (blasphemous, profane shirt, etc.).

to put some love into your visit,

I find the association of a very particular and temporally constrained manner of dress with “putting some love into your visit” problematic. I consider my positive attitude, thankfulness, willingness to help and proactivity in asking to do so, and general courteousness toward my host in demeanor appropriate “love.”

or do you instead treat every place as if it’s yours?

A false dichotomy. If you have an opportunity, may I recommend a class in formal and Aristotelian logic so you can avoid insidious logical fallacies which are antithetical to rational inquiry and productive debate.

Do you try to add to the tone or do you just not care because you think you’re at home?

The charge I set was an inappropriate elevation of the importance of dress in the private sphere that I found ‘elitist’ and certainly not mandated by Catholic theology; my assertion was that dress is not inherently a moral issue and I had a problem with the association of dress with morality.

There was an easy way out for you – Opus Dei simply requires its members to dress in a particular way for whatever reason that is specific to Opus Dei (sacrifice, order, etc. – all good things). And yet you did not choose any of these reasons. Instead, you asserted that dressing casually is not “adding to the tone,” not “caring” about respect or the hosts, not “putting love into my visit,” thereby asserting a universal moral dimension to dress.

That is, you assert a moral dimension. By doing so, you are validating my charge that Opus Dei inappropriately elevates the importance of dress into the moral sphere, where it does not belong. Please think about this before responding.

I am beginning to see why the spirituality of the Work didn’t fit well with you.

Stay civil.

 

[Edward_H]

So you were a guest and it wasn’t “your home”.

Your ‘civil’ point is baseless… Making an assertion based on the accumulating facts that we have teased out about your experience (and your reactions to them) is not being uncivil. Go back and study the great philosophers more substantially.

 

[Baelor]

So you were a guest and it wasn’t “your home”.

Relevance? Is anything I have said factually inaccurate?

Making an assertion based on the accumulating facts that we have teased out about your experience (and your reactions to them) is not being uncivil. Go back and study the great philosophers more substantially.

I have, thank you. What have I said that is in conflict with Catholic morality? Anything? It is easy to make such assertions; it is more difficult to prove them. No wonder you have not.

 

[Anthony86]

I have friends who are in Opus Dei, and have participated in some of the prelature’s activities, such as lectures, retreats, study weekends, et cetera. While I do not feel called to join Opus Dei myself, they have greatly helped me to progress in the spiritual life.

The complaints about, for example, the role of women and decent clothing are, I think, beside the point. Feminism is un-Christian anyway, and there is a moral dimension to clothing.

I think highly of them.

 

[Edward_H]

Relevance? Is anything I have said factually inaccurate?

I have, thank you. What have I said that is in conflict with Catholic morality? Anything? It is easy to make such assertions; it is more difficult to prove them. No wonder you have not.

Yes. You used “own home” above wrongly…you’re now trying to hide behind some one else’s real or imagined feelings as a defense for your initial moan about your experiences in a residence.

 

[fatima12]

As to the notion that Opus Dei is elitist …I beg to differ, among many of my friends I have there are all stations of life , from maids, to university professors, usually with one thing in common: very devout.

As to work ethics, through Divine Providence I have worked with members, that is how I got to know the Obra, through them, and I can say they were and are exceptional friends and people who make a point of having “presencia de Dios” …everything one does one must remember that God is there with us and sees all, therefore one must behave accordingly to please God, in the work place, in our daily lives.

Saint Jose Maria Escriva was also known to live a very simple life and once was reproached affectionately because while praying kneeling other members noted the soles of his shoes were noticeably worn out, if I remember correctly.

I went to a spiritual retreat of the Opus Dei and it was there while speaking to a lady who had lost her only child, to witness her amazing testimony, I regained my faith.

 

[Baelor]

Yes. You used “own home” above wrongly…you’re now trying to hide behind some one else’s real or imagined feelings as a defense for your initial moan about your experiences in a residence.

“Own home” was used correctly because the dress code existed even for the members, who are in their own homes.

My experience in residence was absolutely wonderful; I had a very pleasant experience and I still attend Opus Dei events regularly. Perhaps you are a bit confused about what I am saying?

 

[Edward_H]

“Own home” was used correctly because the dress code existed even for the members, who are in their own homes.

My experience in residence was absolutely wonderful; I had a very pleasant experience and I still attend Opus Dei events regularly. Perhaps you are a bit confused about what I am saying?

Well then, let them speak for themselves as to their issue with the huge issue of “sweatpants” in THEIR home.

As part of the spirituality the Work there is an environment of sacrifice and detachment that is sought and coached. One such sacrifice might be having an ever ready hospitality for guests of Centers. “Being watchful” for “little” opportunities for loving sacrifice for others who may stop by. Making their home warm, “bright and cheerful”, and attractive.

Asking for order and refinement is a little thing, but it could be considered as part of the detachment to the love of comfort that Opus Dei encourages in its members. It has a spiritual dimension and purpose to it. Such a detachment is not often found in most college students.

This is how all residences and centers are set up.

 

[Baelor]

Well then, let them speak for themselves as to their issue with the huge issue of “sweatpants” in THEIR home.

I preempted this statement with post 64.

As part of the spirituality the Work there is an environment of sacrifice and detachment that is sought and coached. One such sacrifice might be having an ever ready hospitality for guests of Centers. “Being watchful” for “little” opportunities for loving sacrifice for others who may stop by. Making their home warm, “bright and cheerful”, and attractive.

Fine. See post 64.

Asking for order and refinement is a little thing, but it could be considered as part of the detachment to the love of comfort that Opus Dei encourages in its members. It has a spiritual dimension and purpose to it. Such a detachment is not often found in most college students.

This is how all residences and centers are set up.

See post 64.

 

[Edward_H]

I preempted this statement with post 64.

Fine. See post 64.

See post 64.

If you think post 32 (guardai in alto ) gives you any ground to moan on about sweatpants, and carry guardai in alto 's water, you’re mistaken. Go read the scant mention there. No handles for you. And in another post you even ceded that dress wasn’t an issue.

Your tactics of drive by, glancing remarks, water carrying for others who don’t ask you, are out of gas.

 

[Baelor]

If you think post 32 (guardai in alto ) gives you any ground to moan on about sweatpants, and carry guardai in alto 's water, you’re mistaken.

I posted what I wanted from his post and elaborated.

And in another post you even ceded that dress wasn’t an issue.

Really? Where did I cede that associating a particular formality of attire with morality is not an issue?

Your tactics of drive by, glancing remarks, water carrying for others who don’t ask you, are out of gas.

Why are you so defensive? It is rather bizarre. Why do you care so much what I think about Opus Dei?

 

[Edward_H]

I posted what I wanted from his post and elaborated.

Really? Where did I cede that associating a particular formality of attire with morality is not an issue?

In post 42 where you said

“I never said that the dress issue was a concern. I also never said that it was an important part of OD. I also never said that I considered it particularly important.”

I care how you misrepresent the truth. Everyone should care about faithful presentation.

You carry water for people who don’t ask you, you take a vague mention of “dress” from someone else and concoct a make believe story about sweatpants, and you run from your own earlier postings.

 

[Baelor]

I care how you misrepresent the truth. Everyone should care about faithful presentation.

Invalid charges against post 42 were responded to in post 48. I never misrepresented the truth.

You carry water for people who don’t ask you, you take a vague mention of “dress” from someone else

What? Someone else laid out their problems with OD and I quoted them and elaborated upon them. How is this an issue?

and concoct a make believe story about sweatpants,

I never concocted any story. What on earth are you talking about? In all seriousness, is English your first language? I feel like we are operating on different planes of understanding here. Can you explain the story I concocted? In what post?

and you run from your own earlier postings.

Namely?

 

[fatima12]

I hope you dont mind if I add something else from personal experience about dress code. When I first met members of the Opus Dei and went to their meetings my dresses were shorter than the norm there, its the way I dressed and I wont pretend that I wear very long dresses now because I dont, but they are longer. But I was never ever made to feel uncomfortable about it , or reprimanded, or told off. I gradually wore longer dresses because it felt appropriate.
Everyone was extremely kind and friendly and unjudgemental.

 

[Edward_H]

Invalid charges against post 42 were responded to in post 48. I never misrepresented the truth.

What? Someone else laid out their problems with OD and I quoted them and elaborated upon them. How is this an issue?

I never concocted any story. What on earth are you talking about? In all seriousness, is English your first language? I feel like we are operating on different planes of understanding here. Can you explain the story I concocted? In what post?

Namely?

Oh maybe I missed a post in all this…who was told they couldn’t wear sweatpants?

 

[Edward_H]

Invalid charges against post 42 were responded to in post 48. I never misrepresented the truth.

What? Someone else laid out their problems with OD and I quoted them and elaborated upon them. How is this an issue?

I never concocted any story. What on earth are you talking about? In all seriousness, is English your first language? I feel like we are operating on different planes of understanding here. Can you explain the story I concocted? In what post?

Namely?

So post 32, unless you’re carrying water for another post here, says only this about dress code.

“many things seem very elitist, e.g. the choice of dress, food, language, etc”

So from some other place you have to provide support for your sweatpants story. It’s somewhere else or a whosale fabrication of yours to buttress your assertions.

So buck up your source.

 

[Faithdancer]

For personal reasons (which I care not to go into detail of), I have done quite a lot of investigation into Opus Dei. Here are my answers to your questions. Only relative to Opus Dei, not other “like groups”. And BTW, there are no other “like groups”, i do believe it is rather unique in the Church (but it is not unique in being a unique group, so don’t hold that against it).

Likely not. It is a calling. I do not currently feel the call. At times I almost wish I did.

I am not for sure what you mean. I suppose an example for you would be the Legionaires of Christ. At one time, I certainly would have lumped these two groups together as being similiar. Having been close to both groups at different times of my life, I can tell you they are very different in character. I can simplify it best by saying, the Legionaires Of Christ seem to exist and focus mainly on the organization: Opus Dei exists and focuses on the individual member.

Would you send your child to one of their schools? QUOTE] In a heartbeat, if one was close by and available.