Opus Dei- opinions

[Faithdancer]

You will find scandals wherever you go. i am not a member of Opus Dei but I understand that they are orthodox. Their charism is for those who life in the world to sanctify their lives. I would recommend them. With respect to some their critics two things,

1. They might not be for everyone if you don’t feel comfortable about them, that is ok.
2. I understand that there are some who don’t like them for their orthodoxy and their success.

 

[Baelor]

So post 32, unless you’re carrying water for another post here, says only this about dress code.

Yes, but post 32 is an overview of the issues that I elaborated in subsequent posts.

So from some other place you have to provide support for your sweatpants story. It’s somewhere else or a whosale fabrication of yours to buttress your assertions.

So buck up your source.

What source? What story? What did I say about sweatpants that requires proof? What kind of proof do you want? What am I even proving? In what post did I “fabricate” a story about sweatpants?

 

[Edward_H]

Yes, but post 32 is an overview of the issues that I elaborated in subsequent posts.

What source? What story? What did I say about sweatpants that requires proof? What kind of proof do you want? What am I even proving? In what post did I “fabricate” a story about sweatpants?

You try to be artful but it merely comes across as embarrassingly dodgy.

You are the one who claimed sweatpants weren’t allowed (there is no other source), but when called on it, you try to wiggle out by saying you “elaborated”. No you didn’t “elaborate” you fabricated it all to try to make a point, and now you’re embarrassed and irritated. We’re done.

 

[Baelor]

You try to be artful but it merely comes across as embarrassingly dodgy.

What?

You are the one who claimed sweatpants weren’t allowed (there is no other source),

They were not. I was told explicitly by the members of the house that only dress pants and collared shirts were appropriate; every member of my local house abides by these rules. Do you doubt me? If so, I accept your doubt. I am not about to divulge my personal information to satisfy your unreasonable burden of proof.

but when called on it, you try to wiggle out by saying you “elaborated”.

Edward, please read through my posts more carefully. The elaboration was on the general “dress code” that I first mentioned. My position is clearly more nuanced than “dress code = elitist,” which is why I explained it in all posts subsequent to my original quotation of guardai’s post. This has nothing to do with sweatpants, which are an example to illustrate my larger position, which is both clearly explained and an elaboration of the skeletal original statement of “dress code.”

No you didn’t “elaborate” you fabricated it all to try to make a point, and now you’re embarrassed and irritated. We’re done.

No fabrication, no embarrassment, no irritation.

Edward, please read more carefully so you can avoid these instances of misunderstanding on your part that only bog down discussion, not that this one was very interesting to begin with.

 

[tafan]

We are not to judge them, nor should we. I can, however, question why an organization reserves this role for women.

Questioning why or questioning if it is morally ok for the organization to do so? It seems to me that Opus Dei is very sincere as to their teaching that all of our lives should be virtuous and all of our work is dignified. They provide a certain role for women, along with that they provide roles of leadership, and spiritual direction for women also. They coerce no one into taking on one of these roles. Anyone who chooses to do so is free to leave the life at any time. The women who choose the life are treated with dignity and are provided spiritual and intellectual formation that is quite extensive. What is the problem you have with it? As far as I can tell, you have stated it is a problem, but have not described why you have a problem with it in any real detail.

My hosts would never care about what I wear. I would never care about what my guests wear unless it were gravely immoral (blasphemous, profane shirt, etc.).

I find this quite unbelievable. I cannot image staying anywhere as a guest and not wanting to look at least as nice as my hosts. I would say that staying somewhere and being indifferent to their desires about how I look is immoral, most likely not grave matter, but certainly wrong. And I am sorry, if someone stays at my home, I may not be that picky, but there are limits that I would expect them to abide by: eg being clean, not smelling, not showing too much skin etc. And I would certainly expect a residence of any religious institute to have much higher standards than I. Looking nice and being pleasant is a virtue. There is absolutely nothing elitist about this, and there is certainly something virtuous about it. It fits in exactly with their desire to sanctify their whole life.

 

[JillianRose]

My opinion is I love Opus Dei. Thats all I got to say about that !!

 

[Baelor]

Questioning why or questioning if it is morally ok for the organization to do so?

Questioning why an organization reserves a particular role for women that does not appear to have any inherent association with women.

What is the problem you have with it?

Potentially none. But I do wonder why numerary assistants are only female. Do you know why? I may find the answer problematic.

I find this quite unbelievable.

I am fortunate that reality does not conform to your sense of the believable.

I cannot image staying anywhere as a guest and not wanting to look at least as nice as my hosts.

I am fortunate also that morality does not conform to your sense of the imaginable. Why can you not imagine that? Why do you imagine that dressing in sweatpants would not be similar to the dress of my hosts, most of whom (whether my friends or their parents) wear sweatpants, yoga pants, casual jeans, etc. in their own homes? Why do you imagine that it matters at all?

I would say that staying somewhere and being indifferent to their desires about how I look is immoral,

That is correct. Fortunately, since you have not justified that a particular attire indicates “indifference to their desires about how I look,” no immoral act is committed.

And I am sorry, if someone stays at my home, I may not be that picky, but there are limits that I would expect them to abide by: eg being clean, not smelling, not showing too much skin etc.

I would ask all of the same things because those actually make a difference.

Looking nice and being pleasant is a virtue. There is absolutely nothing elitist about this, and there is certainly something virtuous about it. It fits in exactly with their desire to sanctify their whole life.

Which is exactly what I claimed – that an inappropriate connection between type of dress and morality is established.

 

[Edward_H]

What can we conclude:

• Baelor says he/she spent some time in an Opus Dei center.
• We’ve seen enough here to conclude it was a mutual “bad fit” situation.
• Baelor doesn’t get the “smiling asceticism” of the Work. Too much I, me, mine. I have better ideas, why do you do things this way, and not how I think they should be done, etc."
• Sweatpants are important to Baelor.
• The good news for Baelor and all Catholics including those in the Work, is that the Catholic Church has many other fine spiritualities.

For others perhaps interested in less he said/she said, the simplest characterization of the Work is: Pray, Work, and Smile. It underlies so much of the Work.

 

[Baelor]

What can we conclude:

• Baelor says he/she spent some time in an Opus Dei center.
• We’ve seen enough here to conclude it was a mutual “bad fit” situation.
• Baelor doesn’t get the “smiling asceticism” of the Work. Too much I, me, mine. I have better ideas, why do you do things this way, and not how I think they should be done, etc."
• Sweatpants are important to Baelor.
• The good news for Baelor and all Catholics including those in the Work, is that the Catholic Church has many other fine spiritualities.

For others perhaps interested in less he said/she said, the simplest characterization of the Work is: Pray, Work, and Smile. It underlies so much of the Work.

My posts are visible to all. The readers can make up their own minds. I do fully understand the “smiling asceticism” of OD and I value and honor it greatly, as any Catholic should. I am not focused on myself and my posts have not reflected that. I do not think that I generally have better ideas than OD about what is necessary for its own members, but that does not mean that OD is infallible and incapable of error.

 

[Marcin_L]

Does anyone know what happens if a supernumenary member of Opus Dei wants to move, eg. to another city or country?
Does the Work limit its members in any way in pursuiting their professional development in this way? Or are they free do do so?

 

[tafan]

Does anyone know what happens if a supernumenary member of Opus Dei wants to move, eg. to another city or country?
Does the Work limit its members in any way in pursuiting their professional development in this way? Or are they free do do so?

I am not a member of Opus Dei, but I no people who are and have visited with them quite a bit about it all. Opus Dei does not, in any way, try to influence their professional career decisions. It does try to influence them to excel at their careers in a faithful and holy way.

 

[Boy_Wonder]

Opus Dei is a wonderful organization and, for the most part, scandal free.

Its spirituality is entirely centered on the laity in contrast to most other forms of spirituality which were designed for consecrated religious and adjusted for outreach to lay members.

They sponsor great events, their confessors are outstanding, and they offer their members a solid and extensive doctrinal and devotional formation.

They are orthodox but not traditional or even necessarily conservative (although many members and cooperators tend to be personally and politically conservative as well).

 

[guardai_in_alto]

to Marcin and other aspiring OD members I’d like to say that, if you know the organization well, and if contemplating a life in it fills you with joy, that may well be a sign that indeed you have a vocation to OD, and you could become very happy - and what is more important, HOLY - within OD.

But I would like to add two caveats:

• first, corporal mortification: as such, this is a good thing, upheld by the Christian tradition, which - used wisely - can help us to become more focused, and to atone for our sins and those of others. However, from reading J. Allen’s book, I remember that the rule at OD is to wear a cilice for two hours a day (or more, if you wish). Isn’t this rather exaggerated and undifferentiated? There are times when it is good to keep the flesh at bay and do penance. But there are other times when the hardships of daily life and work are a cross which is heavy enough by itself. I see the merit of taking up the cross joyfully, but I don’t see why we should add unnecessary weight. People entering OD commit themselves to this type of mortification on a 2h per day basis for the rest of their lives. But we cannot know in advance what other hardships the next few decades of our lives will bring, and whether it is wise to submit to this kind of one-size-fits all programme. No, mortification should be planned individually with your spiritual director - and you are not obliged to choose a spiritual director from the institute you belong to, as the Holy See clearly emphasized in the decree “Quemadmodum” from 1980. Although, as “Boy Wonder” said, OD’s spiritual directors are often outstanding.
• as I’ve indicated before, experience shows that the majority of OD members will tend to have very conservative, even right-wing views. It is true, as far as I know, that OD members are free in their political choices, but it is also true that, as Hans Urs von Balthasar said, OD “undeniably bears the seal of franco-ism”. I would recommend reading von Balthasar’s very clear analysis “l’opus Dei - un intégrisme catholique” (available in French, Spanish and Polish here: opus-info.org/index.php?title=L%E2%80%99Opus_Dei:_un_int%C3%A9grisme_catholique ). The troublesome aspect of this very conservative orientation is that it is often associated with an excessive economic liberalism, which tends to brush aside the fact that the economy is not ethically neutral: our decisions as entrepreneurs, consumers, investors… have social and environmental consequences and therefore must be informed by ethical choices. The same goes for the rules which society is entitled to enjoin upon the economy for the sake of the common good. In my experience, OD members will often all too easily brush aside such considerations as somehow associated with “left-wing ideology”. Catholic social teaching gives us invaluable indications about pressing contemporary issues: the environment, unleashed finance markets, the plight of migrants, the necessity of establishing fair rules of trade, etc. These teachings are often at odds with the preferences of economic liberalists. In conservative circles, there is often a tendency to take catholic social teaching too lightly, emphasizing that “as a catholic, I’m free to disagree with the detailed content of the Caritas in Veritate”. This is too easy. I even once heard a talk given by an OD professor, who suggested that the Church’s condemnation of usury in the middle ages was merely due to a faulty translation of St. John Chrysostomos’ teaching on usury! No, the Church can be trusted in its teaching on socio-economic affairs.

I’ve therefore made a habit of challenging OD members to read up on catholic social teaching, especially the encyclical “Caritas in Veritate” and the “Compendium of the social doctrine of the catholic Church”. This is all the more necessary as OD members often have political ambitions.

In my view, OD could become more of a force for good, and indeed more catholic, by taking criticism seriously, but it often tends to brush it aside. OD may well be a good path for many people, but I think the criticism is worth listening to before entering.

 

[Mark12]

My problem is that the numerary assistant position is bafflingly reserved for females. Is that not the case?

My problem with numerary assistants is not that they’re only females… is that with the excuse that their service is a “spiritual calling” they pay them minimum wage, when their work is worth much more than that.

 

[Mark12]

Does anyone know what happens if a supernumenary member of Opus Dei wants to move, eg. to another city or country?
Does the Work limit its members in any way in pursuiting their professional development in this way? Or are they free do do so?

Supernumeraries are free to do whatever they want. As they need to provide for their families, they can work wherever they want.
Different is with numeraries. They can not move to another city or country without the express authorization of his/her directors. We can say that this is a limitation to their professional development because they can not apply nor accept the job without prior approval.

 

[tafan]

Baelor;10400566:

My problem is that the numerary assistant position is bafflingly reserved for females. Is that not the case?

My problem with numerary assistants is not that they’re only females… is that with the excuse that their service is a “spiritual calling” they pay them minimum wage, when their work is worth much more than that.

I cannot speak for how much they are paid, but I would not be surprised if it was low. However, it is my understanding that they live at the women centers, so their cost of living would be very low. I know what the pay scale is for diocesan priests in the Diocese. Of course they are salaried, but nevertheless the salaries are very small. I also know the pay scales of teachers in the Catholic schools and the comparative pay scales in the public schools around here. Again, Catholic school teachers are paid substantially less.

Most people who work for the Catholic Church receive very low wages relative to what they could earn doing the same thing outside the Church. Why are you singling out Opus Dei for criticism? And if you have a problem with the Catholic Church in general paying such low wages, are you willing to double your sunday contribution to resolve the problem?

 

[Edward_H]

Does anyone know what happens if a supernumenary member of Opus Dei wants to move, eg. to another city or country?
Does the Work limit its members in any way in pursuiting their professional development in this way? Or are they free do do so?

No restrictions…a priest or director may help examine ones motives…how does the choice affect the family…is the change done for superficial reasons…are you bringing your decision to your prayer in a substantial way, are you talking with your spouse about this, where will you receive formation, etc.

And on profession…no pressure…but again there may be some useful points to raise in direction…purity of intention, pursuit of the good, etc.