Opus Dei Saints or Sect

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Brother,

You stated that your order would not allow you to attend your own sister’s wedding because “there might be lay people there”, yet you correspond with countless laypeople on this forum every day. How many hours a day does your order allow internet usage?

Should religious be afraid to be around lay people? I know Fransciscan friars of conservative orders who have attended wedding receptions and had drinks with lay Catholics in bars after pro-life marches. Are you saying they were disobeying the rule of St. Francis?

Thanks.
 
Thanks again for your reply. Please understand that I am trying to learn here. I hope you have the patience to continue our conversation.

I don’t see how it is Christ-like to be obedient. Jesus didn’t really obey the pharasees or the rules of sabath. I mean, I’d definitely choose His side on the matter, but especially because His arguments were better, which I believe is obviously because He is God.
I am enjoying reading the discussion. I had to jump in on this comment, which is a common misconception, in my opinion. The Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking rules, it doesn’t mean he did. Think about this for a moment. They accused him of breaking the Sabbath when he healed people. :rolleyes: If any day of the week was the best to heal someone of their affliction, that they may praise and glorify God, it would be on the Sabbath. Jesus desires works of mercy, which he did every day of the week. The accusation is ludicrous. Yet somehow there is the idea floating around that Jesus broke the Sabbath, when He is the Author of Life and the giver of the Commandments.

We have a lovely book, the Little Flowers of St Francis. Many wonderful stories. I found some on line if you wish to read some when you have a few minutes…What care St Francis took to have his brothers increase in virtue…

ewtn.com/library/mary/flowers1.htm
 
St. Francis of Assisi taught that we, as Catholics, must obey error? To the contrary we must oppose error because it is the enemy of truth.
Did you read above?
Also, what if the Pope says one thing and your Bishop or superior says to do the opposite? Then you follow the Pope and get suspended, yet Rome refuses to hear your appeal, deferring to the Bishop.
You always apply the principle of subsidiarity. You obey your immediate superior.
This is completely untrue. These men have absolutely no guaranteed right to the sacraments and can indeed be excommunicated. Catholics who divorce and remarry are not even allowed to receive the sacraments much less child molesters.
Actually, you’re mistaken. This is not an excommunicable offense. The law is very specific. You are to be dismissed from the clerical state and the religious state. It stops there. The reason is simple. If you go to confession and you receive absolution, the Church cannot deny you the sacraments.

Catholics who divorce and remarry while validly marry may not receive the sacraments, because they are living in sin.

The priest who molested the child and confessed the sin, has received absolution. He is not living in sin; therefore, he cannot be denied the sacraments. As a baptized Catholic he has the right to receive the sacraments.

Excommunication is reserved only for those who are living in sin or who have committed a crime that is identified in canon law as a derelict offense. If you punch the pope in the nose, you’re excommunicated and only the pope can lift it. If you commit an abortion, you may be excommunicated, if you knew that it was an excommunicable offense, otherwise, you’re not excommunicated. Let’s say you knew. Then you’re excommunicated and the bishop or any priest whom he delegates an lift the excommunication.

If you sexually molest an vulnerable person, you are not excommunicated. You are in a grave state of sin and you may not receive the Eucharist until you are absolved. Any priest has to absolve you, if you express sorrow for your sin. Priests may not deny absolution if the person expresses contrition, is not living in sin and if the sin is one that he has faculties to absolve… If you walked in and confessed a murder and expressed contrition, the priest must absolve you and he may not demand that you turn yourself in to the police. The priest may never ask you to do something that is contrary to your welfare.

If you don’t believe it, post it in Ask an Apologist and you’ll find out or call your chancery and ask the chancellor if a priest who is a sexual abuser is automatically excommunicated? He will tell you that if he goes to confession, he is absolved and he can receive the sacraments.
As for OD, even if one “knows” what they are getting into coming in, it still doesn’t make the practices of the organization necessarily good.
If it is approved by the Church, you either comply or you don’t enter their society.
As a previous poster pointed out, the Legionaries had insane rules dictating how their female lay members must peel and orange and other such nonsense. It was downright cult-like and the Vatican had to do a thorough investigation to weed out such odd overly controlling behaviors.
That’s right. Because only the Holy See can change the statutes of an institute of Pontifical Right. No individual can do that, nor can an individual refuse to comply unless he or she is asked to sin.
If you realize in conscience that any organization is violating your basic human rights and dignity, you shouldn’t simply leave the organization and let them harm others. You should completely refuse to obey the unjust orders and then work to spread the stories of abuse so that the organization changes its practices or is forced to change them.
That’s not the way that the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life has handed down the rules to us. Their policy is that if you believe that your rights are being transgressed, you write to the superior on the next rung in the chain of command, but you avoid causing a scandal and attracting attention to the matter. You must also wait for the response to come back to you. Everything is on hold until the higher authority rules. You do not have to comply, unless the higher authority says you do.
 
Evil is evil. One should never “blindly” obey authority especially when they order things that would harm your faith. We don’t check our brains at the door as Catholics, even Catholics who join religious orders or lay institutes.
Obviously, you did not read what St. Francis wrote or you would not be saying this.
If a priest commands you to stop saying your rosary, you disobey. This would be deleterious to your spiritual life. One could never morally obey such an order. Our Lady told us to say it daily.
It depends on the relationship between you and the priest. If he’s your confessor and believes that it’s better for you to stop this practice for your own spiritual good, Our Lady does not trump a Father Confessor or a religious superior. That’s not part of Church doctrine. It has never been. That kind of thinking borders almost on idolatry. Our Lady would never engage in a conflict with the legitimate authorities in the Church. That’s not how she operates. Human beings have created this antagonistic relationship between Our Lady and the clergy and religious superiors. Our Lady has always encouraged men to go to their priests, their bishops or their superiors. She has never encouraged them to disobey.
If a priest orders you to peel your orange using 5 pages of detailed directions, you disobey. His authority is limited to improving your spiritual life and has nothing to do with culinary practices.
Again, it depends on your relationship with the priest. If he’s your superior, you do what he tells you. If he’s just the parish priest, you can peal your orange as your please. If he’s your pastor and he wants you to do something in his parish his way, you must comply. There you have a superior and subordiante relationship. That’s why I keep saying, it all depends on your relationship with the priest. If the relationship is one of superior and subordinate, you must comply in everything but sin. Asking you not to pray a rosary, may be a strange thing to ask, but it’s not a sin. No one is morally bound, under pain of sin, to pray the rosary. If he told you to stop going to Sunday mass, then you have a problem and you do not comply with that. You report it to the next person in the chain of command.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Brother,

You stated that your order would not allow you to attend your own sister’s wedding because “there might be lay people there”, yet you correspond with countless laypeople on this forum every day. How many hours a day does your order allow internet usage?

Should religious be afraid to be around lay people? I know Fransciscan friars of conservative orders who have attended wedding receptions and had drinks with lay Catholics in bars after pro-life marches. Are you saying they were disobeying the rule of St. Francis?

Thanks.
During our formation period, we have three years of enclosure during which we have little or no contact with the laity.

Other than that, it is up to your superior how much or how little contact you have with the laity. Actually, it will depend on your assignment. Some assignments are completely internal and you never see a lay person. Other assignments, such as parishes, shelters, soup kitchens, teaching are very external. Outside of the ordinary contact that you would have with people, such as at parish functions or in the classroom, all of your other contacts with the laity are regulated and controlled by the superior. That’s what Francis ruled. Some superiors have an open door policy, meaning, if you have to go out, you have to go out and you don’t need to ask. Others have a tighter policy. You may go out for scheduled work. Other than that, you must ask for permission. The Rule of St. Francis stays intact. It says “the brothers are bound to obey Brother Francis and his canonically elected successors.” This was the way that the Church approved it. It was sealed with a Bull so that it cannot be changed except by a pope.

I’m allowed to use the internet as much as I can. This and the protection of the unborn are my ministry. I have bone cancer. There is very little phyiscal activity that I can do. However, since I was always either a formator or a professor of theology, and Popes John Paul and Benedict XVI have both been very supportive of using modern teachnology for evangelization, I was given permission to teach online. I do this here and I also write a blog and I keep up a pro-life site for the diocese.

I’ll be starting a new pro-life blog for the dioceses soon. I’m also working on book with all of my essays and lecture. But don’t hold your breadth for that one. It’s taking me longer than I though to read through all that stuff and edit it. We’ll see how long the Lord plans for me to be around.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
.

It was nowhere in the article.

It is also nowhere in the rule of St. Francis

db.ofmcap.org/pls/ofmcap/consultazione.mostra_pagina?id_pagina=1919
I see what you did. There are three parts that govern the friars:

The Regula Bullata, The Testament, and the Admonitions. Francis wrote the Testament and Admonitions as a commentary to the rule in response to questions that came up at the Chapter of Mats.

Admonition Number Three

It’s quite beautiful.

You also missed another beautiful part from the constitutions of the rule

By virtue of our commitment to live in obedience, without regard to distinction of office, let us strive for the last place in the community of Christ’s disciples, serving one another in a spirit of charity and remaining subject to every human creature for God’s sake.

If you want, I would be happy to teach you how to read the Franciscan archives, what is to be read first and what goes with which document or letter and which papal encyclical adds to this or that. I taught this for years.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I am enjoying reading the discussion. I had to jump in on this comment, which is a common misconception, in my opinion. The Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking rules, it doesn’t mean he did. Think about this for a moment. They accused him of breaking the Sabbath when he healed people. :rolleyes: If any day of the week was the best to heal someone of their affliction, that they may praise and glorify God, it would be on the Sabbath. Jesus desires works of mercy, which he did every day of the week. The accusation is ludicrous. Yet somehow there is the idea floating around that Jesus broke the Sabbath, when He is the Author of Life and the giver of the Commandments.

We have a lovely book, the Little Flowers of St Francis. Many wonderful stories. I found some on line if you wish to read some when you have a few minutes…What care St Francis took to have his brothers increase in virtue…

ewtn.com/library/mary/flowers1.htm
This is very well said. The Shabbat was the Lord’s Day. It was a day to worship God and to spend it doing God’s work. This is the point of conflict between Jesus and this little group of Pharisees. Let’s not blow this out of proportion. There were hundreds of Pharisees and it is believed by some scholars that Jesus and some of his apostles may have also been Pharisees.

These were not evil people. This was a little group of right wing radicals who focused so much on the rule that they forget why the rule existed. The rule existed to preserve the day for the Lord and the Lord’s work. So Jesus does not break the law of the Shabbat if he’s doing the Father’s work.

The Commandment said, “Keep holy the Lord’s day.” It did not say, “Sit around and do nothing on the Lord’s day.” Jesus keep sit holy by doing the Lord’s work. The scriptures do not tell us that he did anything other than the Lord’s work on that day. He did not go out with Joseph and build new kitchen cabinets for Mrs. Jones. They didn’t even go fishing that day. He actually refrained from any labor that was not the Lord’s work.

You are right, 100%. By the way, the Little Flowers are great spiritual reading. If you want to read more on Franciscan mysticism, let me know. There are some really cool sites on Francis and Franciscan theology.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Great stuff Brother JR. Thanks for your contributions here and elsewhere on the forum!

Peace of Christ,

Jason
 
Well, as someone who was formerly spiritually lazy, I would like to say that there is nothing wrong with forcing members of an association to practice what they have voluntarily committed to practice 😉 .

Spirituality can be all about self-actualizing this or that, pondering the life-transforming experiences of all sorts of ethereal, abstract things that make not a wit of difference in our spiritual lives.

What struck me most about St Benedict’s Rule is its simplicity and practicality. I wanted to know what Benedict had to say about prayer and what experiences he had to share. But he basically indicated a plan to pray the Psalms over a one-week period, seven times a day etc.

As for the Opus Dei founder, I find his writings to be very practical as well. I was “gob-smacked” when I read his statement to students that “an hour of study is an hour of prayer.”

No division between religion and daily life for that man of God!

Undertaking a Rule of life, Benedictine, Opus Dei or what have you, is a commitment that should be undertaken seriously.

Several months ago at work, I was about to have a meeting with some people promoting organ donation.

Before the meeting, I prayed one of the Hours of the Liturgy of the Hours, and read and pondered a portion of the Gospel.

After the meeting, one of the participants spoke out loud to say, “You really do reflect the grace of the Gospel, you know? I really feel the Gospel coming out of you . . .” 🙂

And I just sat there listening to them . . .

We are meant to reflect the Light of Christ and such religious rules of devotion are intended to “flick on” our spiritual switches.

There is a great Anglican book on praying the Daily Hours by one William Law “A serious call to a devout and holy life” published by Paulist Press.

William Law knew what Christianity and Christian devotion are all about.

Alex
 
You are right, 100%. By the way, the Little Flowers are great spiritual reading. If you want to read more on Franciscan mysticism, let me know. There are some really cool sites on Francis and Franciscan theology.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I would like to read more on Franciscan mysticism. Please share the sites you have in mind. I very much appreciate your posts! 🙂

Peace,
FM
 
I’m allowed to use the internet as much as I can. This and the protection of the unborn are my ministry. I have bone cancer. There is very little phyiscal activity that I can do. However, since I was always either a formator or a professor of theology, and Popes John Paul and Benedict XVI have both been very supportive of using modern teachnology for evangelization, I was given permission to teach online. I do this here and I also write a blog and I keep up a pro-life site for the diocese.
I also thank you very much for this aspect of your ministry. Can you send me a link to your blog? I get more information from your posts on here then I get from ongoing formation from my SFO fraternity. Thanks again Brother,

Pax et bonum,
Jim
 
We have a lovely book, the Little Flowers of St Francis. Many wonderful stories. I found some on line if you wish to read some when you have a few minutes…What care St Francis took to have his brothers increase in virtue…

ewtn.com/library/mary/flowers1.htm
PennyinCanada,
Just as an FYI if you would like a copy of the complete book online with chapter links and things like that the following link will help.

Little Flowers of St. Francis

It is a little easier to follow then the EWTN link.
 
I don’t see how it is Christ-like to be obedient. Jesus didn’t really obey the pharasees or the rules of sabath. I mean, I’d definitely choose His side on the matter, but especially because His arguments were better, which I believe is obviously because He is God.
Christ was definitely obedient. He obeyed the Law so as to remain a spotless lamb for the sacrifice of the Cross. He humbled Himself, as God, to obey Mary and Joseph who were His earthly parents. Above all, He obeyed God and willingly went to Calvary, despite His prayer in the garden that the “cup” be taken from Him. He asked for God’s will to be done. That is the single best example we humans have of faithful obedience.

God bless,
cecilia
 
Hi there,

I’ve been reading some books of Josemaria Escivá and reading some stuff about the Opus Dei of people both for and against. My personal impression is that the guys of the Opus are incredibly divoted Catholics that seek saintity through their daily jobs and actions. On the other hand, there are rumers and testemonies of ex-members that kind of give the idea that the Opus Dei is a sect. Also some texts of Josemaria seem to indicate blind obedience towards superiors and supression of women. What do you think or know?
I think that Opus Dei is a good thing, but just like anything and anywhere else, there can be a few bad apples mixed in with it. A founder can be a Saint, and the members can mostly be devout, but still abuses etc. can happen. That happens everywhere on this side of heaven.

Just by its very nature, it could attract unstable people . For instance, at one time I belonged to a very ancient and stable Third Order for lay people, but my particular local group had practically turned into a cult, and the leader and cohorts were somewhat bonkers. The Bishop and the Order was notified by a group of us, and eventually the whole thing was renewed, and the bad apples were ejected.

The moral of the story is: don’t judge an entire Order or Prelature on one person or a small group of people.

Personally, I found that it was better for me, at least during this stage of my life, to have the freedom to serve God as a regular lay person. I did not renew my temporary promises, as my spiritual director told me not to join anything in which I would be held responsible for anything under pain of sin (such as daily Lit. of the Hours, and other practices which can be very hard for me to fit in on some days). He wanted me to have the freedom to do these things voluntarily. The Church already has things set up for us anyway: we can go to daily Mass, pray the Lit. of the Hours, etc., visit the sick, and so on, and join groups that do not require things that we will ultimately be judged upon. Being a single lay Catholic is great! I recommend it to anyone! 😉
 
Actually, he did. Be very careful not to fall into a Protestant mode of reading scripture. Jesus observed all of the Jewish prescriptions. That’s why he goes to Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover. That’s why he tells the Jews to “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s”. Not all of the Pharisees were evil. Jesus himself may have been a Pharisee and so may have some of his Apostles.

Jesus opposed the abuse of the people. That’s why he tells them “The Shabbat was made for man, not man for the Shabbat.” In other words, the Shabbat was a means to holiness. Jesus gets into an argument with them, precisely because they want to command sin. The Shabbat was not to be used to sin. They wanted to deny food to the hungry. That is a grave sin. He never opposed the legitimate exercise of authority, be it by Rome or by the Jewish authorities.

For starters, you can be excommunicated at best. Worse case scenario, you can be committing a mortal sin and end up in hell.

Again, steer clear of Protestant spirituality. They don’t understand the spiritual life the way that the Masters taught it. I love them dearly, but they are mistaken on this one. They confuse mistake with moral error. They are not the same. If my superior tells me to do something a certain way and I believe that there is a better way to do it, I still have to do it his way. He has the right to command and I have the obligation to obey. This is a legitimate exercise of authority. He is not commanding something sinful. He is commanding what he believes to be the best course of action. If there is a mistake, it’s a human mistake. It has nothing to do with Satan. Satan is not interested in the neutral. He goes for the jugular. He wants you to disobey. He wants you to challenge your superior and how much more you know. He wants you to nurture your pride. He wants you to enter into a conflict with your brother. This agrees with him.

That’s why the masters tell us that obedience is pleasing to God and man, because obedience is an act of love. It has nothing to do with getting it right. Pilate was wrong. Caiaphas was also wrong. But Jesus and Mary submitted to their legitimate authority. To make sure that we understood that Pilate was exercising legitimate authority, Christ says to him, “You would have no power over me, had it not been given to you from above.” Pilate had the authority to put Jesus to death. What he could not do was make Jesus commit a sin by avoiding the cross.

There are many things that are neutral, even if they are mistaken.

Moral law does not allow the Church to expel these men from the Church. They can be dismissed from the clerical state or from religious life; but they must be allowed to remain Catholic and to receive the Sacraments. Canon Lawyers are wondering if dismissing is such a good idea. It rids the Church of a problem, but it releases a person to do damage outside. Dismissal does not protect the innocent. There is a question on the table, “is there another alternative, such as confinement to a house?” The Church has never had a formal policy that promotes or defends such sins as you posted above. It’s unfair to say that. There have been and always will be individuals in authority who will make these mistakes. Do not confuse them with the Church.

Just because they’re red, does not make apples and tomatoes the same thing. The Legionnaires were bound to obey Fr. Marciel as their founder and superior on all matters where he exercised legitimate authority, even if he was mistaken. They were never bound to obey him in sinful matters. That is not the meaning of absolute obedience. Absolute obedience sorts out the sinful from the non-sinful. It complies with the non-sinful without complaining, questioning, or murmuring. It refuses to do the sinful.

Fr. Marciel was not the only sinful founder. Do you think that every founder of a religious community was a saint?

As to the current state of his soul, that’s not up to us to speculate. We would be committing a sin to do so.

One may never comply with sin. One must always submit to legitimate authority, because it is pleasing to God and man.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Brother, may I share this explanation with some non-Catholic friends on Facebook? I think it is excellent.
 
Again, it depends on your relationship with the priest. If he’s your superior, you do what he tells you. If he’s just the parish priest, you can peal your orange as your please. If he’s your pastor and he wants you to do something in his parish his way, you must comply. There you have a superior and subordiante relationship. That’s why I keep saying, it all depends on your relationship with the priest. If the relationship is one of superior and subordinate, you must comply in everything but sin. Asking you not to pray a rosary, may be a strange thing to ask, but it’s not a sin. No one is morally bound, under pain of sin, to pray the rosary. If he told you to stop going to Sunday mass, then you have a problem and you do not comply with that. You report it to the next person in the chain of command.
1.) So, if I am to understand correctly, if your superior instructs you to stop assisting at the Novus Ordo Mass and exclusively assist at the Tridentine Mass, and there is a Tridentine Sunday Mass you can make every Sunday, you are to obey?

2.) Are lay Catholics not subject to their Pastors? Why then can they disobey orders from their Pastor.

3.) Am I to understand correctly that you are saying one should obey one’s bishop in contradiction to orders from the Pope?
 
PennyinCanada,
Just as an FYI if you would like a copy of the complete book online with chapter links and things like that the following link will help.

Little Flowers of St. Francis

It is a little easier to follow then the EWTN link.
Thanks so much for that!
I love sharing St Francis stories, especially with families with children.
My hubby and I have borrowed St Francis’ line of ‘perfect joy’ at the appropriate moments. It makes us smile when things are going badly. 😛
 
I see what you did. There are three parts that govern the friars:

The Regula Bullata, The Testament, and the Admonitions. Francis wrote the Testament and Admonitions as a commentary to the rule in response to questions that came up at the Chapter of Mats.

Admonition Number Three
Indeed. So the Admonitions are not part of the rule itself, but serve to explain Q&A’s from it, which was my point. You stated the quoted portion came from “The Rule of St. Francis” in your previous post and that was what I was responding to.
You also missed another beautiful part from the constitutions of the rule
It seems you forgot to include this portion of the admonition you quoted from on obedience:
If, however, a superior command anything to a subject that is against his soul it is permissible for him to disobey…
 
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JReducation:
Actually, you’re mistaken. This is not an excommunicable offense. The law is very specific. You are to be dismissed from the clerical state and the religious state. It stops there. The reason is simple. If you go to confession and you receive absolution, the Church cannot deny you the sacraments.
Serial child-molestation may not have an automatic excommunication in Canon Law tied to it. However, Church authority can always utilize a ferendae sententiae excommunication wherever they think it is prudent. The Church could certainly excommunicate a serial child-molesting priest if they think the situation warrants it.
 
It’s funny that you mention that the left objects to Opus Dei. Guess what? So does the right. The SSPX does not appreciate them at all, nor do they appreciate the Jesuits either. I had to chuckle because two of the several theologians that the Holy See assigned to the dioalogue between the SSPX and the Vatican, one is from the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross (Opus Dei) and the other is from the Society of Jesus (Jesuit). Then they threw a Dominican in the middle to strike a blance. 😃

I’m just kidding, there are other theologians in there too. I believe they are diocesan priests.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
LOL - I almost spilled my coffee over this!!!

Thank You. 👍
 
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