Opus Dei

[AveSantaMaria]

Anyone in it? Thoughts on this order as a lay member? Advice for someone curious and contemplating membership… or comparisons between this order and the others: Carmelites, Dominicans, Franciscans?

 

[Shlomey]

Opus Dei is for those who seek holiness in a secular life, not an ordained life.

I personally do find it very interesting considering how happy Opus Dei members seem to be.

However, I don’t feel a vocation to it.

You should just contact the Opus Dei: they reply quite fast.

 

[Maso]

Does anybody here know anything about the Opus Dei facility in East Pembroke Massachusetts…? It was the “Arnold School” before the Catholics bought it and I went to school there for two winters and one summer. One of my dorm mates was a direct descendant of the most important Plymouth Mayflower pilgmim. The Howland had me over to Plymouth once as a guest and we went on board the Mayflower replica. That was in 1960.

 

[Red_Meg]

My toddler is super-cranky so I can’t type long—

I’m a supernumerary of Opus Dei, there are others on CAF as well. Be happy to answer any questions you have.

Arnold Hall is a retreat center now, and the website has tons of photos.

Margaret

 

[Maso]

My toddler is super-cranky so I can’t type long—

I’m a supernumerary of Opus Dei, there are others on CAF as well. Be happy to answer any questions you have.

Arnold Hall is a retreat center now, and the website has tons of photos.

Margaret

Thanx… Margaret,

They sure built the place up a lot since 1960…! I dormed in Greenwood and so did Bobby Howland the Mayflower descendant. I got memories of that place, are you there…? I also remember seeing the old black and white live TV broadcast from Mercury 1 of Alan Shepard from 'outer space"…!!! in the Main House living room…!

Gene Floorsheim, the daughter of the shoe manufacturer was there too. They had just sold the family name to investors.

There are some new buildings there where old buildings were. There was a very fine old church organ there once that belonged to one of the staff who dismantled it and took it with him in 1960. He also had a wall to wall vinyl record collection of clasical music.

They never allowed us to swim in that lake for some reason.

The circle was there then and Nathan P. Arnold owned a beautiful black '55 Loncoln Continental that would be worth a fortune now. His daughter was a part of early computer development.

“Court House” was where the science teacher, Paul Leiberman stayed with his wife and daughter then.

The “Main House” looks the same as it should. You don’t want to mess with classic colonial architecture.

It is interesting that they retained the old names of those buildings.

I would love to visit there again but I’m way too far in Florida. They get cold winters…?

We used to walk the back trail all the way to Marshfield on Sundays. There was an old junk yard with old rotting wooden spoke wheels from cars of the 1920’s out that way.

There were cows in the barn down the hill by that pond and two pastures.

I don’t have any pictures from then.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

What is a supernumerary?

 

[Paenitens]

Anyone in it? Thoughts on this order as a lay member? Advice for someone curious and contemplating membership… or comparisons between this order and the others: Carmelites, Dominicans, Franciscans?

I’ve had the same question for the last several weeks. Others will be able to answer this better than I (there are descriptions that are rather particular to Opus Dei since it is not an Order, but rather a Personal Prelature which is a bit like a distinct ‘practice’ but fully and completely within the Roman Catholic Church) BUT I would like to say that my experience thus far has been very positive. I am looking for a faithful and energetic group to join for many reasons, but primarily to get more engaged in my faith. I have contacted the Domincans and Carmelites here in Singapore and have been rather disappointed in their lack of interest in me as a potential future member. With the Carmelites here in particular (and again I’m speaking of Lay or Third Order) I have called innumerable times, left messages, and corresponded via e-mail but always no resolution as to how I can get more information. It’s as if they simply don’t want, or know how, to get their message out. AND FOLKS, ISN’T IT OUR DUTY TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL, PARTICULARLY TO THOSE WHO SHOW INTEREST??

Opus Dei responded to my first e-mail within 24 hours (and apologized “for the delay”) and agreed to meet with me at my convenience immediately. Their website is clear, and the writings of its founder, St. Josemaria Escriva, are readily available online, on Amazon.com, etc.

I realize this can all come across as “Vocation Shopping” and overly reliant on an Orders PR mechanism and, frankly, that’s true to some extent. But given how the West (I’m lumping Singapore in there) is structured today, I fail to see how even a contemplative group like the Carmelites can survive without the ability to communicate their message in the modern marketplace. It’s not like most of us are accustomed to seeing habited Domincan nuns, Jesuit priests, or Carthusian monks in our daily life and therefore are being presented with first-hand experience of what these folks do, as well as the ability to correspond with them directly.

 

[Rafaela]

Hi,

I am currently based in Europe. :winter: At any case I have been near OD for almost 2years now. I have some concerns though. Though I have not experienced anything negative, and I sort of buy into their message, I still wonder why they need to be in front line of marketing their group in internet etc. Really, Franciscans, Dominicans, Carmelites etc orders, have not needed to do that. Good message seems to speak for itself. Another fact I am concerned with is, why there seems to be relative amount of people online, with their web pages, whom seem to be totally normal, and they are very radically against OD, some calling it even ‘cult’. Can somebody answer these, for I am Mainly the people I have met have been really nice, and appeared to be happy with their lives, that includes numeraries, supernumeraries, and priests…

 

[Red_Meg]

Hello again,

The toddler is currently not cranky, so we’ll see how much I can get through here…

AveSantaMaria:

What is a supernumerary?

A supernumerary is a member of Opus Dei who has a vocation to marriage and raising a family of their own. We keep to the same “plan of life” as other members (numeraries and associates) like Mass, prayer, Rosary, etc. but we live in our own homes to take care of our families. Numeraries, on the other hand, remain single and normally live together in a center. They do this so they have the time & energy needed to give formation & spiritual direction.

Rafaela:

Though I have not experienced anything negative, and I sort of buy into their message, I still wonder why they need to be in front line of marketing their group in internet etc.

Opus Dei has one major website dedicated to explaining the organization, another one dedicated to sharing the writings of St. Josemaria, and I think there’s one more, not nearly as extensive, that is “about” St. Josemaria. I’m not too sure what their goal is, exactly, except maybe for historical or scholarly use?

Anyway, I guess I don’t see a problem with using the modern means of communication to explain who we are. Some people feel much more comfortable accessing information that way, while others (who would rather watch paint dry than spend time on the internet) would probably do better to just knock on the door of a center, sit down and have a cup of tea with someone and discuss things. I don’t see the issue with either approach-- the goal is to help people see that God calls everyone to be a saint, and if using a variety of means to communicate that is what works, than go for it…

Another fact I am concerned with is, why there seems to be relative amount of people online, with their web pages, whom seem to be totally normal, and they are very radically against OD, some calling it even ‘cult’.

I can’t speak to everyone’s experience with the Work-- I can certainly say, though, that it isn’t for everybody, just as everybody isn’t called to the cloister or a third order or whatever. I can say, however, that I have encountered nothing ‘culty’ in my dealings with people in Opus Dei. Nothing. We place a huge, huge emphasis on freedom, because we are children of God, not slaves. Anything done in the Work needs to be done freely, as an adult.

That being said, I have encountered one person in the Work who is by nature an incredibly pushy woman who will not take no for an answer. I have to imagine she has rubbed some people the wrong way over the years. But that is quite clearly her own defect that she needs to work on, not something to be attributed to Opus Dei, any more than my horrible sloppiness and poor housekeeping should be…

I would definitely encourage you to poke around the www.opusdei.org site further if you are interested-- a lot of material is covered, and explained with more writing skill than I possess. You can, of course, ask me, too, but I am subject to family demands.

Also, there were two books published recently that present an interesting look-- one is from an “insider,” the apologist Scott Hahn, called “Ordinary Work, Extraordinary Grace;” the other is from an outside perspective, by the journalist John Allen, called “Opus Dei.” They are both from Doubleday, which is apparently seeking to cash in on all aspects of contraversy, since they also published “The Da Vinci Code” and St. Josemaria’s “The Way.”

Hope this helps,

Margaret

 

[ack]

I can’t speak to everyone’s experience with the Work-- I can certainly say, though, that it isn’t for everybody, just as everybody isn’t called to the cloister or a third order or whatever. I can say, however, that I have encountered nothing ‘culty’ in my dealings with people in Opus Dei. Nothing. We place a huge, huge emphasis on freedom, because we are children of God, not slaves. Anything done in the Work needs to be done freely, as an adult.

That being said, I have encountered one person in the Work who is by nature an incredibly pushy woman who will not take no for an answer. I have to imagine she has rubbed some people the wrong way over the years. But that is quite clearly her own defect that she needs to work on, not something to be attributed to Opus Dei, any more than my horrible sloppiness and poor housekeeping should be…

Hello Meg,

I’m wondering if you have any other insights on the criticism against Opus Dei. I have noticed many people online calling Opus Dei a “cult”, but they all seem to be from Europe. The attitudes towards Opus Dei in America seem to be more positive. My dealings with Opus Dei members here (in America) have all been very positive, and I’m wondering if Opus Dei members and organizations in Europe are somehow different in attitude or personality.

Note that the member that you replied to is from Europe.

In contrast to Opus Dei, there is another contraversial religious organization which has received a lot of criticsm in America, and my interactions with its members in America have been somewhat troubling. But my interactions with Opus Dei members here have been positive, and I see less criticsm of Opus Dei here.

 

[Rafaela]

I would definitely encourage you to poke around the www.opusdei.org site further if you are interested–

the other is from an outside perspective, by the journalist John Allen, called “Opus Dei.” and St. Josemaria’s “The Way.”

Hello Red Meg,

I have read the books u suggest and seen the web page. You see, I am the one responsible for translating the letter of Prelate each month to one of the smaller European languages. I also had the luck of having as my confessor for about a year an OD priest, a truly remarkable man. (We moved since.) As I said before I find what the people there do, really good. It is just that as an academic, I feel my intellect is being neglected in some elements of the Work. For instance, why does OD center never call it self one? The name is always something like
‘‘Maple woods cultural center for women’’ (made it up) but that is the way. Now u may say that it has to do with privacy of people who live there. My question is though why is it needed there in comparison to saying this is ‘‘Monastery of the order of Dominicans’’. Another point that there is, is that when ever I mention ‘‘cult’’ everybody in the Work seem to get unreasonably irritated. Why is that, unless if what I say has some sort of tiny part of truth? You know, originally sociologists, used word ‘‘cult’’ to refer to any relatively small religious group. :curtsey:

 

[Red_Meg]

I am the one responsible for translating the letter of Prelate each month to one of the smaller European languages.

Thank you!!! As one who reads the letter in translation to English every month, I know how appreciated that kind of help is.

It is just that as an academic, I feel my intellect is being neglected in some elements of the Work. For instance, why does OD center never call it self one? The name is always something like ‘‘Maple woods cultural center for women’’ (made it up) but that is the way. Now u may say that it has to do with privacy of people who live there. My question is though why is it needed there in comparison to saying this is ‘‘Monastery of the order of Dominicans’’.

I guess the way I’ve always thought about it is this: a center is, first and foremost, a home. We don’t have the custom here in the US of assigning names to individual houses, but my impression is that some parts of Europe do, which is rather charming. But even if we did name our homes here, I don’t think my family, Catholic though we may be, would call it something like “St. Gemma” or “A Little Piece of Opus Dei” or anything like that. It would be kind of weird, don’t you think? It would strike me as equally weird for a center to be named like that. Particularly when the center is a large residence (I’m thinking of the college kids’ place in Boston, now) there will be many residents who are not practicing, or are not Catholic, or are not even Christian. Tacking on some kind of “churchy” name would be off-putting, and could potentially deprive them of what could otherwise be a truly wonderful living experience. Many people think they cannot stand Christianity, yet when they see it lived out, simply, day by day, they understand the appeal.

Does that make any sense?

Another point that there is, is that when ever I mention ‘‘cult’’ everybody in the Work seem to get unreasonably irritated. Why is that, unless if what I say has some sort of tiny part of truth? You know, originally sociologists, used word ‘‘cult’’ to refer to any relatively small religious group. :curtsey:

Last things first-- in English, at least here in the US, cult has taken on an exclusively perjorative meaning. It implies you have “checked your brains at the front door,” so to speak, and decided to abandon all pretense of independent thought and freedom.

This whole notion of abandoning freedom is completely inimical to our spirit. St. Josemaria insisted time and time again that we needed to be living out our vocations with total freedom.

Many of us have simply had our patience tested over the last few years with all the Da Vinci Code nonsense. People that, for years, couldn’t give a hoot that someone belonged to Opus Dei, suddenly became deeply interested, but not for any spiritual reason, but because of the potential for a freak show. KWIM? I hope you can understand that it can all get a bit tiresome at some point.

This might be a rather silly example, but suppose the notion that a mother couldn’t properly care for more than two or three children became widespread and fixed in popular culture. If that happened, I, as the mother of eight, would probably start to get a bit exasperated at some point if many of my acquaintances, even without malice, kept innocently saying, “But surely you can’t take care of that many! Some of them must be neglected/underfed/whatever.” Yes?

I hope this makes some sense, at least??

Best,

Margaret

 

[Red_Meg]

In contrast to Opus Dei, there is another contraversial religious organization which has received a lot of criticsm in America, and my interactions with its members in America have been somewhat troubling. But my interactions with Opus Dei members here have been positive, and I see less criticsm of Opus Dei here.

I know the organization of which you speak. It is so sad to watch-- many people have had their faith deeply shaken by all of this, and it’s important we pray for them a lot.

One thing I have picked up, though, from reading over the last few days, is that this other organization seems to have a policy of complete, absolute non-criticism woven into its very fabric. I could see how that could lead to very unhealthy behaviors being left unchecked.

Opus Dei does not have that same kind of policy. We have a process for fraternal correction, and we are reminded from time to time of our duty to love our sisters in the Work enough to speak up when something appears amiss.

Margaret

 

[ack]

One thing I have picked up, though, from reading over the last few days, is that this other organization seems to have a policy of complete, absolute non-criticism woven into its very fabric. I could see how that could lead to very unhealthy behaviors being left unchecked.

Opus Dei does not have that same kind of policy. We have a process for fraternal correction, and we are reminded from time to time of our duty to love our sisters in the Work enough to speak up when something appears amiss.

Margaret

Going back to my original question – why do you think Opus Dei has picked up this reputation for being cult-like? Most of the criticism seems to be allegations that Opus Dei excessively controls the lives of its members, but I have not seen these alligations substantiated in a concrete or systematic way.

(I brought up the other organization in contrast, because I have seen many concrete examples of odd behavior in their organization, and the few personal experiences that I’ve had with them confirm the criticism coming from others.)

 

[Rafaela]

Hello Margaret,

Yes, I suppose you make sense with your statement about the name of the center. However, your last point about my last question, I think you misunderstood me partly, I do not say that OD is a cult, I merely say it has some of the ‘‘cult-like’’ features, in deeply sociological meaning. I am happy for all those people whom can find their vocation in what ever religious organization and live it happily. For me that kind of Kierkegaardian ‘leap of faith’ is too much. However there is another thing, and I hope you do not take this bad way, my subjective experience is that I thought I had good friend who was a numerary, but immediately when I said to her that unfortunately for me at the moment it is too hard living so far of center, (and yes being poor and not owning a car) to come and visit all your functions at the moment. (Train tickets are expensive.) She has not been in touch with me since, I thought we were friends, but I thought, being a little that perhaps she just wanted that I could have done something for the center or her. Anyway, the entire ordeal left me very unhappy, and a bit There is couple other things that I have encountered that have left me confused too. My former confessor used to say: perhaps u find one day urself in OD, I think it might be your way. But contrasting to that once my Godmother then said, and she is a member too as well as the priest: How can u ever think of being a member? Nobody like u can ever be one. I was so appaled at first, then I thought fine, I do not need organization that does so obviously not need me. I have the feeling that even if I would become the President of Europe I could never be good enough for these people, so forgive me for saying, but I do think it has a bit ‘elitistic’ feature. Another thing I was left wondering is: Does a human ever actually ‘earn’ vocation to something. My answer for that is NO, human can never earn anything from God. Perhaps for some organizations, u have to really earn it though. Right now I have decided to consider that my family goes first, and I am not going to think about more of this, what is not to be, is not to be. All of this has left me sad though, because the centers are the only places where I have felt spiritually like home :bighanky:

 

[Red_Meg]

Going back to my original question – why do you think Opus Dei has picked up this reputation for being cult-like? Most of the criticism seems to be allegations that Opus Dei excessively controls the lives of its members, but I have not seen these alligations substantiated in a concrete or systematic way.

(I brought up the other organization in contrast, because I have seen many concrete examples of odd behavior in their organization, and the few personal experiences that I’ve had with them confirm the criticism coming from others.)

Honestly, this is the part I don’t get. I mean, obviously, there will be some folks who see any type of life-changing religious devotion to be “cult-like”-- suddenly a son or daughter is going to daily Mass & saying the Rosary-- but I don’t really concern myself with those type of allegations, because they just misidentify normal, healthy piety with excess.

But for the normal, healthy, practicing Catholics who see a “problem,” rather than something they just don’t personally feel drawn to-- again, this is what leaves me a bit baffled.

Margaret

 

[Red_Meg]

However there is another thing, and I hope you do not take this bad way, my subjective experience is that I thought I had good friend who was a numerary, but immediately when I said to her that unfortunately for me at the moment it is too hard living so far of center, (and yes being poor and not owning a car) to come and visit all your functions at the moment. (Train tickets are expensive.) She has not been in touch with me since, I thought we were friends, but I thought, being a little that perhaps she just wanted that I could have done something for the center or her. Anyway, the entire ordeal left me very unhappy, and a bit There is couple other things that I have encountered that have left me confused too. My former confessor used to say: perhaps u find one day urself in OD, I think it might be your way. But contrasting to that once my Godmother then said, and she is a member too as well as the priest: How can u ever think of being a member? Nobody like u can ever be one. I was so appaled at first, then I thought fine, I do not need organization that does so obviously not need me. I have the feeling that even if I would become the President of Europe I could never be good enough for these people, so forgive me for saying, but I do think it has a bit ‘elitistic’ feature. Another thing I was left wondering is: Does a human ever actually ‘earn’ vocation to something. My answer for that is NO, human can never earn anything from God. Perhaps for some organizations, u have to really earn it though. Right now I have decided to consider that my family goes first, and I am not going to think about more of this, what is not to be, is not to be. All of this has left me sad though, because the centers are the only places where I have felt spiritually like home :bighanky:

Rafaela, I’m terribly sorry if any of your dealings with people in the Work have left you hurt. I really am. :hug1:

I can’t speak to your particular situation, obviously, because I don’t know any of the people or circumstances. Now, perhaps this is too much of a “tactless American” solution, but personally, I would pick up the phone and have an honest and charitable conversation with your numerary friend and share how you feel. If nothing else, 1) most of us can use all the good friends we can find, and hopefully the friendship is still there, just dormant; and 2) the Work obviously has a special place in your heart (vocation or not) and it would be a shame for you to be left with this sour taste in your mouth.

As to the whole earning a vocation and elitism question-- obviously nobody “deserves” a vocation. I certainly don’t. I have to kind of laugh, actually, thinking about this whole thing, because I don’t fit the stereotype of a supernumerary at all. I am a terribly disorganized, sloppy person by nature. It’s awful. I struggle with it every day, and you can tell by the state of my house that’s it’s a losing battle. I am thankful that I didn’t have to “match up” to some textbook standard to be admitted to the Work. I’m not quite sure what you had in mind with this issue, but it’s the first thing that jumps into my head when someone asks if Opus Dei is “elitist.”

Margaret

 

[Rafaela]

Thanks Margaret! :hug1:

I do not know about calling, but perhaps I could indeed touch base with email. Nobody has ever known me better than the father I was lucky to meet and confess to every week for over a year. I still miss him, and his advices, we used to meet every 2-3 months to talk about my spiritual life.
OD will indeed always have special place in my heart, whether or not I ever become part of it. I am so sloppy too! Sometimes I think based on that, or how often I fall for chocolate despite fighting against :knight2: that I can not be good enough to make it to a member, I fall for even small things :imsorry: . Anyway I am just starting my MA studies, got married (9th Jan.), and it looks like our family is about to start too :heaven:, so I have many things to keep me busy these couple of years in here, and I hope the place where we next move into has center nearby . I just try to think that God must have some reason to send me here, so far from the center, but sometimes it is hard.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I realize this can all come across as “Vocation Shopping” and overly reliant on an Orders PR mechanism and, frankly, that’s true to some extent. But given how the West (I’m lumping Singapore in there) is structured today, I fail to see how even a contemplative group like the Carmelites can survive without the ability to communicate their message in the modern marketplace. It’s not like most of us are accustomed to seeing habited Domincan nuns, Jesuit priests, or Carthusian monks in our daily life and therefore are being presented with first-hand experience of what these folks do, as well as the ability to correspond with them directly.

Almost nobody is accustomed to seeing Carthusian monks in one’s daily life, being hermits in community they only come out of enclosure on Sundays and Solemnities. If you haven’t seen the dvd “Into Great Silence” you need to. It is a silent documentary for lack of a better word on the Carthusians in Chartreuss France. I highly recommend it. (For those who may not know, the Carthusians (men and women) are the most ascetical of all orders. In the movie they receive two new novices.)

As for contemplative nuns/monks and vocation shopping, you would be amazed how many of them have web sites now, complete with photographs. The various groups of Discalced Carmelites, Poor Clares, Dominicans, and Cistercians all have wonderful web sites - I visit them often. Now, I cannot speak to the Poor Clares, but the other three orders of enclosed nuns have lay orders attached to them. Personally, I have been trying to discern whether or not I have a vocation to the Benedictine Oblates or the Cistercian Lay Associates.

Here is a link to the website for the Discalced Carmelite Lay Order. secularcarmelite.com/OCDS_Formation.html

 

[Paenitens]

Almost nobody is accustomed to seeing Carthusian monks in one’s daily life, being hermits in community they only come out of enclosure on Sundays and Solemnities. If you haven’t seen the dvd “Into Great Silence” you need to. It is a silent documentary for lack of a better word on the Carthusians in Chartreuss France. I highly recommend it. (For those who may not know, the Carthusians (men and women) are the most ascetical of all orders. In the movie they receive two new novices.)

As for contemplative nuns/monks and vocation shopping, you would be amazed how many of them have web sites now, complete with photographs. The various groups of Discalced Carmelites, Poor Clares, Dominicans, and Cistercians all have wonderful web sites - I visit them often. Now, I cannot speak to the Poor Clares, but the other three orders of enclosed nuns have lay orders attached to them. Personally, I have been trying to discern whether or not I have a vocation to the Benedictine Oblates or the Cistercian Lay Associates.

Here is a link to the website for the Discalced Carmelite Lay Order. secularcarmelite.com/OCDS_Formation.html

Yes, indeed, you are correct many/most have websites; I suppose I should have expanded a little on my frustration. The problem is then making contact with the orders. I have left messages, sent e-mails, etc. with little to no success. IN ANY EVENT just a little venting from someone who very much wants these orders to flourish. Perhaps my calling is to be an itinerant PR consultant for Roman Catholic religious orders. As I said before, Opus Dei responded practically immediately and offered to meet me anywhere in town…can we imply that OD has a bit extra of that Holy Spirit running through their veins?