Oral Sex and Mortal Sin

[setter]

Wow, it is interesting to see that this thread has been revived. My husband and I took a lot of what was said in this thread into consideration back in April and have come to a decision that has been really enriching for us. I know it doesn’t agree with the church and what many of you have been saying but ultimately, our bedroom antics are between us and God.

We still engage in oral sex but only when it is not being used with a contraceptive mentality. For example, I will finish him off so to speak and then we will proceed to have full intercourse later the same evening. I can always count on my husband to rise to the occasion several times in a short time span so I don’t see why there is any harm in it. I personally love to give my husband that type of pleasure. There are times that I would rather pleasure him in that fashion then to have full blown intercourse.

It is really funny that you guys talk about the fact that OS prohibits procreation and all of that but once my husband and I took our sex lives away from the church and began enjoying each other without the constant worry of being in mortal sin we got pregnant. I enjoy giving him OS to completion and he enjoys receiving it. Guess what, we got pregnant the first month we resorted to our “old and sinful” ways.

The voice of dissent, and proud none the less.

BTW – What does it mean for you to CA profile yourself as a “Catholic”, if in name only?

 

[fix]

One of the things I really struggle with is the fact that no distinction is made between putting chemicals in your body that can kill a fertilized egg and wanting to share some sexual intimacy with your spouse during a time when you know that bringing another child into the world is not what is bnest for your family.

I was particularly angry a couple who could not have intercourse because of a physical disability that they could also not have oral sex because they could not have intercourse. It just seemed really insensitive to deny this couple their only means of sexual affection. And it certainly made me wonder how well does this celibate clergy understands the issues of married life.

I have come to love the church more than I imagine in the past year, and I would never dream of leaving. However, these things really sadden me. I am especially saddened by the fact that wives like gogogirl feel like they have to function outside the bounds of the church.

Kendy

In recent months the Pope has said, what has always been known, that the Church and Christ cannot be separated. Christ speaks to us through His Church. To arrive at a conclusion that is at odds with the Church is to be be at odds with Christ.
There is no way around it.

It seems we often have an imperfect understanding of the the gift of sexual powers. The celibate clergy is transmitting the will of God, not some flawed personal opinion.

It is as if we each want to define what sexual union is and what its ends are instead of understanding how it is ordained by God.

 

[gogogirl]

The voice of dissent, and proud none the less.

BTW – What does it mean for you to CA profile yourself as a “Catholic”, if in name only?

Thank you for calling that to my attention. I went in and changed my profile since you have so eloquently pointed out that I can no longer call myself Catholic.

 

[Lorarose]

What factors motivate mu desired family size? What are my current circumstances and what would wisdom dictate in this situation? Etc.

My current circumstances are that it would be very unwise to continue in this present course of action - unless I want to end up medicated everyday with children who are being neglected because I cannot meet their needs.

 

[setter]

Thank you for calling that to my attention. I went in and changed my profile since you have so eloquently pointed out that I can no longer call myself Catholic.

I hope and pray that this is a consequence of grace and realization that you cannot hold the untenable position of openly rejecting authoritative Church teaching in a public Catholic forum and in integrity consider yourself a good and faithful Catholic.

 

[gogogirl]

I hope and pray that this is a consequence of grace and realization that you cannot hold the untenable position of openly rejecting authoritative Church teaching in a public Catholic forum and in integrity consider yourself a good and faithful Catholic.

You are absolutely right I am not good nor am I faithful. I guess I should resign myself to burning in hell for thinking for myself. OMG, that is not allowed at all. It is quite obvious that I am not welcome on these boards so I will bow out of this conversation and thread and wish you all the best.

 

[fix]

You are absolutely right I am not good nor am I faithful. I guess I should resign myself to burning in hell for thinking for myself. OMG, that is not allowed at all. It is quite obvious that I am not welcome on these boards so I will bow out of this conversation and thread and wish you all the best.

I hope you do not reject the faith or leave the Church. I am just curious as to why not accepting this teaching on a sexual matter is called thinking for yourself? I would ask how we are to know what is true and what is false?

 

[tjm8]

Larosse,

I think first you should consider the possibility that seven children is the number of children that God wants you to have.

The right attitude is what is God’s will for my life, my marriage, and my family. Am I surrending it all to Him, including my body?
Kendy

That would be the real Catholic thing to do, but it makes the poor lady little more than a baby factory. Why should she subject herself to that ? Do you really think that would be God’s will? I doubt it! Maybe I’m not a good catholic but I’m not stupid either and neither are >50% of catholic husbands and wives. I won’t argue that Popes is infallible in most things but they are infallibly wrong on birth control! Maybe it is just their maleness comming through.

 

[setter]

You are absolutely right I am not good nor am I faithful. I guess I should resign myself to burning in hell for thinking for myself. OMG, that is not allowed at all. It is quite obvious that I am not welcome on these boards so I will bow out of this conversation and thread and wish you all the best.

Dodging your heavy sarcasm, I truly hope that you will not simply disregard the warning that I extend your way that unrepentant mortal sin cuts one off from the life of grace (faith) needed to gain entry into heaven. Heaven and hell are real choices that each person must choose through their thoughts, words and actions.

Here is a related article by an astute and wholly orthodox moral theologian:

CONTRACEPTION: FATAL TO THE FAITH

                       by Fr. John Hardon

  This must seem like a strange title, "Contraception: Fatal to the faith." What does the title mean? Does it mean that to believe in contraception is contrary to the faith? Or does it mean that-Christian believers may not practice contraception? Or does it mean that those who practice contraception are in danger of losing their faith?

  Please be more clear on just what we mean when we say,

“contraception, fatal to the faith?”

  What do we mean by the title and what is the thesis of this

presentation? We mean that professed Catholics who practice contraception either give up the practice of contraception or they give up their
Catholic faith.

ewtn.com/library/CHRIST/CONFATAL.TXT

 

[Kendy]

My current circumstances are that it would be very unwise to continue in this present course of action - unless I want to end up medicated everyday with children who are being neglected because I cannot meet their needs.

I am not judging. I am only saying that these are the type of questions one should ask before saying, “I don’t want anymore children.”

 

[Kendy]

Thank you for calling that to my attention. I went in and changed my profile since you have so eloquently pointed out that I can no longer call myself Catholic.

You can call yourself catholic. You will find that many conservative catholic are not exactly in lock step with Rome when it comes to things like the Uraq war, the death penalty, and aid to the poor. We are all imperfect.

Kendy

 

[fix]

I won’t argue that Popes is infallible in most things but they are infallibly wrong on birth control! Maybe it is just their maleness comming through.

How can the Pope be infallible only in some aspects of faith and morals and not others? How is that determined?

 

[fix]

You can call yourself catholic. You will find that many conservative catholic are not exactly in lock step with Rome when it comes to things like the Uraq war, the death penalty, and aid to the poor. We are all imperfect.

Kendy

The items mentioned above do not bind all Catholics in the way the prohibition on contraception binds.

 

[Kendy]

That would be the real Catholic thing to do, but it makes the poor lady little more than a baby factory. Why should she subject herself to that ? Do you really think that would be God’s will? I doubt it! Maybe I’m not a good catholic but I’m not stupid either and neither are >50% of catholic husbands and wives. I won’t argue that Popes is infallible in most things but they are infallibly wrong on birth control! Maybe it is just their maleness comming through.

I am more sensitive to larosse position than that so don’t include me.

 

[setter]

You can call yourself catholic. You will find that many conservative catholic are not exactly in lock step with Rome when it comes to things like the Uraq war, the death penalty, and aid to the poor. We are all imperfect.

Kendy

Would you not agree that not all sins are equal, and that some sins/patterns of sins left unrepentant can very well be fatal to one’s faith to save? Please, do me a favor and point out to me if I as a Catholic publicly profess and adamantly hold a position which objectively places my soul in a precarious position.

 

[Kendy]

The items mentioned above do not bind all Catholics in the way the prohibition on contraception binds.

Of course, not! It’s all about sex. It’s always about sex. I grew up with the that the only sin is a sexual sin mentality; it des not suprised.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Would you not agree that not all sins are equal, and that some sins/patterns of sins left unrepentant can very well be fatal to one’s faith to save? Please, do me a favor and point out to me if I as a Catholic publicly profess and adamantly hold a position which objectively places my soul in a precarious position.

No, no not all. That’s exactly my point. Not all sins are equal. Supporting something that took away the lives of tons of innocent Iraqis (it would take the death of over 500,000 Americans to equal the Iraqi death toll) is a much more serious sin, a much greater pro-life issue than having oral sex with no intent to contracept.

Kendy

 

[Saint_Sinner]

If all of us were honest we would not throw verbal barbs at anyone. Can any one of us consider ourselves more rightous that Jesus who did not stone to woman in serious sin (adultery).

On the contrary we love you gogogirl and we want the best for you. The very best for you and yours is to follow the teachings of the church. The ‘rules’ are there to prevent us from hurting ourselves.

Please consider what beauty there is within this church, ponder the saints and the unbroken teachings. What may seem frustrating is just the church loving you. The church cannot change its teaching since this was received from Christ.

 

[setter]

No, no not all. That’s exactly my point. Not all sins are equal. Supporting something that took away the lives of tons of innocent Iraqis (it would take the death of over 500,000 Americans to equal the Iraqi death toll) is a much more serious sin, a much greater pro-life issue than having oral sex with no intent to contracept.

Kendy

One deliberate and willful sin choice in a grave matter left unrepentent can be just as toxic to the soul as the willful collaboration in the deaths of tens of thousands.

**1754 **The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil. (CCC)

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it. (CCC)

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin. (CCC)

 

[Kendy]

One deliberate and willful sin choice in a grave matter left unrepentent can be just as toxic to the soul as the willful collaboration in the deaths of tens of thousands.

**1754 **The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil. (CCC)

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it. (CCC)

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin. (CCC)

So, you are the one who thinks all sin is equal?

Kendy