Oral Tradition, is it infallible?

[lanman87]

If we really break down what you say here all I need to do is to go out get a bunch of my buddies. Fill out the correct government non-Profit paper work, start up our own Ecclesial community and I too, as the founder with the affirmation of my buddies, can claim to have been given the Authority of God.

Well, anyone can claim anything they want. That is why it is important for Pastors, Elders, Deacons to be affirmed, not just by their buddies but by the faith community. It gives credibility to someone if they were ordained by an established church as opposed to some random person with no church affiliation starting the Church of My Buddies on Elm Street. Where the worship service consist of watching football and drinking beer.

In my tradition. If someone feels called to be a minister of the Gospel they go their pastor and inform them of that they feel the Lord is calling them to preach, minister, or missions. They will then go through an ordination process. This includes being mentored by other ministers, getting instruction and teaching on what it means to be a minister of the Gospel, and finally an interview process with deacons and pastors. If the Deacons and Pastor(s) agree that all indications are the person is called to be a minister and is Biblical qualified to be a minister (Pastor, Evangelist, Deacon, Missionary…) then they will bring it before the church body. If the church body doesn’t offer up an objection then the person is affirmed by the church and an ordination service is scheduled. In the ordination service the person is seating in front of the church, The Pastor prays over him and then all ordained men present in the church will take turns laying hands and praying for him.

This, or something similar, is the process for most Evangelical churches. This is hardly getting a few of my buddies to agree that I’m a “minister”.

 

[AugustTherese]

not just by their buddies but by the faith community.

What’s the difference?

 

[lanman87]

What’s the difference?

The difference is the entire community/church is composed of pastors, teachers, deacons and laity.

 

[MT1926]

Well, anyone can claim anything they want.

Totally agree, this is the point I am trying to make.

That is why it is important for Pastors, Elders, Deacons to be affirmed, not just by their buddies but by the faith community.

Well my buddies are pastors and deacons of other churches. They just feel what I am saying is more Christian like than the communities they currently belong to.

It gives credibility to someone if they were ordained by an established church as opposed to some random person with no church affiliation starting the Church of My Buddies on Elm Street

So all I would need to do is pretend to agree with a certain established church affiliation. At which point I can claim to have authority, start my own church and hand on my authority to others?

I’m sure you see where I am going with this. This is the exact scenario of what Martin Luther did.

This, or something similar, is the process for most Evangelical churches. This is hardly getting a few of my buddies to agree that I’m a “minister”.

Yes this is the way you see it now, 400 years later. But I am referencing the origin of a church here. If I remember correctly you said you were Baptist. I don’t know much about Baptists other than the internet states they were founded in the 17th century. So were did said founders authority come from? An already established ecclesial community or from his buddies who broke away from another church?

I’m sure if me and my buddies are any good we can grow our church for years to come and pass it on to others who follow us. Why can’t my future members, 400 years from now, claim the same authority you claim to receive from their well established rather large faith community of pastors and deacons?

I don’t mean to be rude here but if one can’t trace the authority of their church back 2000 years I don’t see how their claim to authority is any greater than the Bible church that just opened up last year one town over.

The definition of authority is the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.

I do not see how this is humanly possible unless Christ left us a Church, with His authority here on earth to govern said authority.

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

So were did said founders authority come from? An already established ecclesial community or from his buddies who broke away from another church?

The first Baptist were Anglican not Ana-Baptist as is commonly thought. They were part of the Puritan movement which sought to rid corruption in the Church of England.

Anyway, what you are discounting is the fact the God calls and gifts people to leadership in the church. It is God who gives the authority and the church who recognizes the authority and calling given by God.

Do you want to say that a Baptist Evangelist isn’t called by God to preach the Gospel? Do you want to say that a Baptist Missionary risking their life in a Muslim country to bring the Gospel of Christ to the Muslim people are not gifted and called by God and empowered by the Holy Spirit? Do you want to say the Pastor of a Baptist church hasn’t been called by the Holy Spirit to be a Pastor? BTW-I using Baptist as an example. I could say the same thing about Methodist or Assembly of God.

No, it isn’t a person or institution that gives authority. It is God himself who calls, gifts, and equips His people to preach, teach and proclaim the Good News. Those people are located in various Christian Churches that are organized in various ways. But it is always God who does the calling and gives the Authority to preach and teach the Word.

The recognition of this authority is two fold. First, it is in the recognition in faith of the individual being called by God to be a minister that is “set apart” for the Gospel. Second, it is the Holy Spirit working in the church to agree with and affirm those called to be “set apart”.

 

[MT1926]

Anyway, what you are discounting is the fact the God calls and gifts people to leadership in the church. It is God who gives the authority and the church who recognizes the authority and calling given by God.

And what you are discounting is this is proven how? Because the one with authority says so? Because others in the church believe so?

Like you already stated anyone can claim to have authority. Since it is possible for this to happen shouldn’t there be a way to prove which claims are real and which ones are self proclaimed?

Do you want to say that a Baptist Evangelist isn’t called by God to preach the Gospel?

We are all called to preach the gospel, but not everyone who preaches is given the authority to lead.

Do you want to say that a Baptist Missionary risking their life in a Muslim country to bring the Gospel of Christ to the Muslim people are not gifted and called by God and empowered by the Holy Spirit?

Same answer, just because one is called or moved to preach does not automatically include a calling to authority.

Do you want to say the Pastor of a Baptist church hasn’t been called by the Holy Spirit to be a Pastor?

I don’t know the answer to this that is why I keep asking you the question. By who’s authority was said Pastor given the authority to preach the gospel according to the interpretation he agrees with? God being the answer is not sufficient because it is a claim that anyone can make to justify anything they feel is important to them.

No, it isn’t a person or institution that gives authority. It is God himself who calls, gifts, and equips His people to preach, teach and proclaim the Good News.

It seems like we are going around in circles.

Let’s try this from a different angle.

What is the evidence that God actually did the calling and gave the Authority to preach and the person did not just take that authority on his own.

Basically, how do you know God gave these puritans the authority to start a movement? Where is the evidence that the movement is what God wanted and wasn’t what man wanted?

The recognition of this authority is two fold. First, it is in the recognition in faith of the individual being called by God to be a minister that is “set apart” for the Gospel. Second, it is the Holy Spirit working in the church to agree with and affirm those called to be “set apart”.

Both of these are evidence of authority taken by man not given by God. Like I already said authority has to be handed on from somewhere. Where did this man’s and the churches authority originally come from for them to be able to affirm that God gave them authority?

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

Where did this man’s and the churches authority originally come from for them to be able to affirm that God gave them authority?

From the same place as everything else. By faith in Christ and that He calls and gifts some to be Elders/Pastors/Bishops and some to be teachers and evangelist/missionaries.

 

[MT1926]

From the same place as everything else. By faith in Christ and that He calls and gifts some to be Elders/Pastors/Bishops and some to be teachers and evangelist/missionaries.

I’m sorry but I am either talking past you or you refuse to admit the direct equality to your statement and my original comparison.

If the man and his buddies have faith in Christ and feel they are called and given a gift to be Pastor then they were given the same authority, to start their own church, as every other Evangelical pastor out their. Which is basically as much authority as they claim they have.

You have to admit their is no way what you claim can be used to disprove the authority of the pastor of a new Bible church who interprets the Bible contrary to what either of us believe. All he has to say is his authority come from his faith in Christ backed by the Holy Spirit working through his ecclesial community to validate his authority to preach the gospel that he is preaching.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

Historically speaking. The canon of the New Testament evolved into the 27 books that were finally universally accepted as Canon. There was no council or single bishop who created the canon. It was created by a consensus of the churches.

Can you show any evidence to support this claim? how was the “consensus” recorded or documented?

The vast majority of the New Testament canon was agreed upon very early on.

How can we know this?

The council of Hippo and the council of Florence didn’t set the canon. They simply verified what was already being used in the various churches and had been used for a long time.

What evidence do you have to support this assertion? How did the councils know this?

For me the opposite is true. God’s word did not come from tradition, as you say, God’s word came directly from his mouth into the hearts and minds of the Apostles who were inspired to write. Oral tradition is an elusive shadow of un-recorded rumors, in my view. It would be my last place to look for the truth.

One has to wonder how any accurate information got from Adam and Eve to Moses!! Clearly you do not believe that God is able to watch over His word to perform it.

By the Authority of God through the calling and gifting of the Holy Spirit on certain individuals to be pastors, evangelist, teachers, missionaries and so forth, and the affirmation of the church (Ecclesia), who recognizes and ordains those called and gifted by God to be Pastors, Evangelist, Teachers, and so forth.

The early church was organized around the authority of the Bishop, successor of the Apostle.

Anyway, what you are discounting is the fact the God calls and gifts people to leadership in the church. It is God who gives the authority and the church who recognizes the authority and calling given by God.

No one is discounting this. It is just that we see this process in paradosis from the successors of the Apostles. All authority was given to them, and they are the only ones who can validly ordain.

No, it isn’t a person or institution that gives authority.

It is the person of Christ, and the Church He founded that contains the authority He gave them.

It is God himself who calls, gifts, and equips His people to preach, teach and proclaim the Good News.

This is not entirely consistent with what Scripture states.

 

[guanophore]

From the same place as everything else. By faith in Christ and that He calls and gifts some to be Elders/Pastors/Bishops and some to be teachers and evangelist/missionaries.

So the authority is based upon your faith in Christ, and the faith of your community.

If the man and his buddies have faith in Christ and feel they are called and given a gift to be Pastor then they were given the same authority, to start their own church, as every other Evangelical pastor out there.

But the important thing is that they all AGREE together (consensus) and they believe God gives them the authority to ordain them from the Bible.

If the person that was ordained starts preaching something the community does not agree with they will get the boot!

 

[lanman87]

Can you show any evidence to support this claim? how was the “consensus” recorded or documented?

If you have a few hours to kill here is a series of three videos on how the New Testament was formed. It is in an informal environment and the speaker goes on a few rabbit trails. The teacher is the Pastor of an Assembly of God church and has a Ph.D in Ecclesiastical History with a focus on the pre-nicene church. IMO- he does a good job of describing how the New Testament was formed. He is also very fair and is in many cases Pro-Catholic.

How the New Testament was formed Part 1

How the New Testament was formed Part 2

How the New Testament was formed Part 3