Oral Tradition, is it infallible?

[MT1926]

We do not have the same understanding of sacraments that Catholics do.

Agreed.

While all of that may look different and not be understood the same ways as Catholics do we do what we do in Faith and Love.

I’m good with this also.

The reason I said what I said was because we were discussing “TRUST”. All I was getting at was I agreed with Clement, that our Faith and Trust in Christ should not be based on our understanding. Just because you understand it differently than Catholics does not mean you are not Christian. However, just because we are capable of understanding it differently does not mean that is the way Christ intended it. This is the whole point I am getting to is I believe Christ set up one way of doing what He wanted. A good example of this is

Matthew 19:8-9
8 He said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity,[a] and marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries a divorced woman, commits adultery.”

God sets things up one way. Sure He might give a little leeway because of the “Hardness of our hearts”. But this leeway does not negate the fact of Absolute Truth.

Now I am not saying I am right and you are wrong in our theology, the only point I am trying to make is Jesus had to of wanted us to know exactly what He wanted. We both agree with Clement that we can not come to this understanding on our own. If this is true wouldn’t Jesus have left us a way to find this truth?

 

[MT1926]

Often on this board I see something along the lines of “Those poor Protestants they struggle because they don’t have the sacraments” all the way to “Those evil protestants can’t be saved because they don’t hold to every belief in the CCC”.

I agree this is uncalled for. I believe you are a very faithful man with great Faith and Love of our Lord. No one here can judge you, that is for God and God alone. I’m sure there are many Catholics who won’t be saved, even with the Sacraments.

However, do you believe Jesus left us a “FULLNESS” of the Faith? or Did He say each church assembly can decide what they believe the “Fullness of Faith” is?

Do you believe Jesus left us with the possibility of becoming Full of Grace in this life and gaining fuller knowledge of Him? Seeing how we can’t trust our own understanding how do you think He did this?

For me personally I don’t believe in the Sacraments because the Church says so. I see the genius behind them. I see the Sacraments as an outward sign that Christ used to give us inward Grace. We are human beings for the beginning of our life to the end of our lives and we learn best by experience. Touching, feeling, tasting, etc…

Read about Jesus physical cures in the Bible. He used outwards signs to perform a deeper more lasting spiritual healing.

Notice he used physical means. Mud, spittle, spoken words, and eye contact…… Why didn’t he just wave His hand or snap His fingers?

Because he knows as human beings we learn through our senses. So he brought it down to our level. He set the sacraments up to appeal to our humanity.

The sacraments use physical matter but provide supernatural and natural benefits.

If you really sat down and took the time to study the Sacraments you would see that the Sacraments aren’t a “WORK” that we do for God. The Sacraments are God’s gift to us.

Jesus was only with humanity for 33 years. He left us the sacraments to allow us to experience His physical touch and presence now and in the generations to come.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

In fact, we poor Protestant have the ability to live joyful life, powered by the Holy Spirit, and with great Faith and Love of our Lord Jesus Christ, looking to bring Him Glory and Honor with our lives.

That being the case, what brings you here?

 

[lanman87]

That being the case, what brings you here?

The fact that my 20 year old son is about to get engaged to a Catholic girl. All indications are he will go through RCIA and become Catholic either just before or just after they are married. They are both juniors in College so they probably will not get married for a couple of years.

 

[lanman87]

Do you believe Jesus left us with the possibility of becoming Full of Grace in this life and gaining fuller knowledge of Him? Seeing how we can’t trust our own understanding how do you think He did this?

By the filling and prompting of the Spirit, the record of the Bible, and the example of others… Also by the spiritual gifts of evangelism, teaching and preaching and equipping that He gives to and uses to call certain individuals for leadership (Pastor, Elder, Deacon, Missionary, Teacher and so forth).

The early church fathers had the same problems we do. They had their own understandings and many times had conflicts in their understandings. We can only trust them as far as they are in agreement with the Biblical record.

We may not agree on what verse X means. But we at least know what verse X says. You can’t say that about “Sacred Tradition”. It is a nebulous entity that shifts based on the understanding/politics/culture/popularity of who is in the charge. Plus, not only do have have arguments about what verse X means you now add arguments about “is it part of Sacred Tradition and if so what does it mean”.

 

[MT1926]

You can’t say that about “Sacred Tradition”. It is a nebulous entity that shifts based on the understanding/politics/culture/popularity of who is in the charge.

This is news to me? Could you please point out a Dogma of the faith that has shifted based on popularity or who is in charge now?

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

The fact that my 20 year old son is about to get engaged to a Catholic girl. All indications are he will go through RCIA and become Catholic either just before or just after they are married. They are both juniors in College so they probably will not get married for a couple of years.

Congratulations. I would recommend picking up a Trent Horn’s book Why We’re Catholic. It’s an easy read took me like 5 days. I think it would give you some basics of the faith. So you guys can be on common ground when you talk.

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

This is news to me? Could you please point out a Dogma of the faith that has shifted based on popularity or who is in charge now?

Oh, it doesn’t shift once it is declared dogma. All the shifting is done beforehand. The politics of the church and how the dogmas came to being is an interesting subject on its own.

 

[MT1926]

Oh, it doesn’t shift once it is declared dogma. All the shifting is done beforehand. The politics of the church and how the dogmas came to being is an interesting subject on its own.

Just curious do you believe we should have Dogmas of the faith?

If not why not?

If so how would you think they would be developed?

The reason I ask is there really isn’t anything in scripture that comes right out ans says this is a Dogma of the Faith.

Take for instance Baptism.

Catholics believe it is a Dogma of the Faith that is Biblical based. Others say it isn’t. For instance TgG who says something has to be repeated like 3 times before it is essential. Not real sure where he got that dogma , but that is what he seems to base his theology on.

In my opinion this all ties back into the Trust and Absolute Truth we have been discussing.

In my opinion if there are no Dogmas then there are no truths? Would you agree with this statement?

One more question, why do you believe it took Christ so long to come to redeem us? Did anything seem to need to “shift” in the old testament before we could fully understand it?

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

The fact that my 20 year old son is about to get engaged to a Catholic girl.

Are you trying to brace yourself for the inevitable?

We can only trust them as far as they are in agreement with the Biblical record.

I does not seem like you really believe God’s Word remains where He placed it.

The reason there have been conflicts is that Scripture is ambiguous in some areas. The NT was never meant to be a full compendium of the faith, but what happens is that people read it and understand what it says through their own perceptions, colored by the lenses they are wearing when they read.

You can’t say that about “Sacred Tradition”.

Perhaps you cannot but those who have retained the Apostolic faith can.

It is a nebulous entity that shifts based on the understanding/politics/culture/popularity of who is in the charge.

This statement reflects a lack of understanding about Sacred Tradition. this is Aposotlic teaching that was delivered once for all to the Church. It cannot change, anymore than scripture can. Nothing can be added or subtracted. It was closed at the death of the last apostle.

What you are describing are canon laws, disciplines, and ordinary magesterial teaching, which shifts with the needs and culture.

Plus, not only do have have arguments about what verse X means you now add arguments about “is it part of Sacred Tradition and if so what does it mean”.

The function of the Apostolic teaching that was once for all deposited to the saints is to clarify what is written. We read the text through the faith they left to us.

 

[guanophore]

Oh, it doesn’t shift once it is declared dogma. All the shifting is done beforehand.

Teachings left to us by the Apostles cannot “shift” any more than the contents of Scripture does. The only “shift” is how those teachings may be applied. Again, if you think otherwise, perhaps you can give an example?

The politics of the church and how the dogmas came to being is an interesting subject on its own.

I quite agree, but neither the dogmas or the politics can "shift’ what was left for us by the Apostles. Practices may change, but the teaching of Jesus cannot be changed.

 

[lanman87]

Perhaps you cannot but those who have retained the Apostolic faith can.

Well, that’s the claim anyway.

 

[lanman87]

Just curious do you believe we should have Dogmas of the faith?

There is not much we humans like to do more than disagree. We are stubborn and opinionated. God knows that much better than we do. I read somewhere that there were more than 30 Sects of Jews in the 1st Century. Religious disagreements and denominations are not unique to Christianity. Anytime you get people together they are going to find something to disagree about. We all have prejudice for a variety of reasons.

Dogma or Orthodox belief is what the vast majority hold in common. If 90%+ of Christians understand things the same way then I’m happy to call it a Dogma. If a matter is in dispute then it is not dogma it is opinion. The opinion becomes dogma when it becomes accepted by Christianity as a whole.

However, it has to be a free belief and not a coerced or forced belief. Part of the problem with Catholicism is that from the early middle ages to the reformation to disagree with what you were told to believe by the church could get you killed. People weren’t free to believe what they wished and those that tried paid the price. The Waldensians come to mind. So while it may be true that 90%+ of people Christians believed in Catholic doctrine before the reformation, it was a skewed number due to the political and religious hold that the Catholic Church had on governments and Christianity alike.

The greatest legacy of the reformation is religious freedom. I would even argue that Constitution of the United States would have never existed if not for the Protestant Reformation. It is no coincidence that the USA is the birthplace of the vast majority of Christian denominations. However, one side effect of of having all these denominations is that is shows us true orthodox belief. Not by looking at what they disagree on but by looking at what they all agree on. If you look at the statement of faith or what we believe on a Baptist Website, a Methodist Website, a Presbyterian Website, a Assembly of God website and even a Church of Christ website you will see the vast majority of things are in agreement.

This is how the Christian community as a whole says that Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses are cults and not orthodox Christianity. It is not because one mans says so or because a council decides it is so. It is because the consensus of the church (God’s people) agree.

So while our disagreements create division and give us things to fuss and argue about, in a very real sense our agreements reveal the truth.

 

[guanophore]

Well, that’s the claim anyway.

Indeed! Catholics and Orthodox have kept the Apostolic command:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

The children of the Reformation were separated from these, so were unable to stand firm in them or hold to them.

Dogma or Orthodox belief is what the vast majority hold in common.

How did you decide on this rendering? For Orthodox and Catholics, the Doctrines of the faith are what was handed down to us from the Apostles, even if it is in the minority.

If 90%+ of Christians understand things the same way then I’m happy to call it a Dogma.

Wow. That means, instead of what we received from the Apostles, what is “true” is based on majority vote?!?!?

As shocking as this sounds, I do realize that this is, in fact, the case for all those communities that are separated from Sacred Tradition.

The opinion becomes dogma when it becomes accepted by Christianity as a whole.

Wow. I guess this means that Christianity can be molded to any current cultural values. I see how this has happened with women priests/clergy,abortion and birth control, divorce and some other practices, such as rejection of the Sacraments. I expect the same will occur with gay “marriage”.

You know, I used to be so frustrated with the CC because it was so slow to respond to modern culture, but in reading your post, it is so clear why this can’t happen. If majority “opinion” is what forms the Truth of the faith, it is better to be “old fashioned!”

However, it has to be a free belief and not a coerced or forced belief.

The CC cannot “force” or “coerce” an individual into believing anything.

Part of the problem with Catholicism is that from the early middle ages to the reformation to disagree with what you were told to believe by the church could get you killed.

I do agree that the conflation of Church and State was a problem. It was one that was solved both at the Council of Trent, and in the Constitution of the US. If you think this practice stopped at the Reformation, you still have more to learn about your family history, as Protestant rulers and clergy also killed Catholics who did not agree to Reformed doctrines.

At this point, though, you can no longer claim this is a problem, as Catholic clergy are no longer allowed to hold any political office. There is no coercion about the faith anymore, secular or ecclesial. So, let us move this discussion forward by dealing with what IS, rather than what WAS.

The greatest legacy of the reformation is religious freedom.

Clearly you are not aware that the Reformers continued the previous practices of coercion and capital punishment!
on.

 

[guanophore]

It is no coincidence that the USA is the birthplace of the vast majority of Christian denominations.

No. It is a direct reflection of Sola Scriptura. Division begats division.

However, one side effect of of having all these denominations is that is shows us true orthodox belief.

I do agree with you, but not for the reason you think. It is clear that there can be no unity within ecclesial communities that hold mutually exclusive doctrines.

1 Corinthians 11:18 For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it…19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

divisions = schismata
factions = schismata

1 Corinthians 1:10 [ Divisions in the Church ] I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

divisions = schismata

The apostle expressly forbids divisions, factions - schism. This is the fruit of Sola Scriptura, and what all this division/denominating has shown is that the CC is “true”. The CC receives her doctrines from the Apostles, and not majority vote/opini

 

[po18guy]

The bible is the product of the oral tradition. End of argument.

But, I suspect not…

 

[Benadam]

I think that many Catholics struggle with the term “infallability”. It is probably the main reason that so many Catholics leave the Church for other belief systems.

Not for me. If infallibility was not a characteristic of the teaching I would doubt it’s from God and go look for the infallible teaching. I thank God I don’t have to do that because if I didn’t find it I might doubt the Incarnation.

 

[lanman87]

Wow. That means, instead of what we received from the Apostles, what is “true” is based on majority vote?!?!?

Aren’t votes taken at the Councils?

The CC cannot “force” or “coerce” an individual into believing anything.

Then why where people punished for teaching/believing differently?

If you think this practice stopped at the Reformation, you still have more to learn about your family history, as Protestant rulers and clergy also killed Catholics who did not agree to Reformed doctrines.

I didn’t say it stopped at the reformation. I said it was the legacy of the reformation and (let me add) it is an ongoing struggle. It was the religious wars/struggles and the struggle for religious freedom in Europe to realize the need for freedom of religion in the USA. Parts of the rest of the Western World still have issues and part of the issues is that in parts of the western world religion and government are still intertwined. Sadly, Protestant and Catholic in some parts of the world are more like Democrat and Republican are to us in the USA only with much more hate and venom. It isn’t about what one believes, it is about who is in charge.

 

[lanman87]

How did you decide on this rendering? For Orthodox and Catholics, the Doctrines of the faith are what was handed down to us from the Apostles, even if it is in the minority.

That is what the real debate concerning Sola Scriptura and Sacred Tradition is about. Luther and the other reformers basically accused the Catholic church of adding to and/or creating new traditions that were never taught by the Apostles. They accused the Catholic church of being in error because they didn’t follow the teaching of the New Testament which is the God Breathed Word of God.

 

[lanman87]

Wow. I guess this means that Christianity can be molded to any current cultural values. I see how this has happened with women priests/clergy,abortion and birth control, divorce and some other practices, such as rejection of the Sacraments. I expect the same will occur with gay “marriage”.

No, Churches can be molded to any current cultural value. But true Christians will remain faithful to the historic teachings of Christianity that all of Christianity has held since the beginning. There may be fewer of us and others may try and speak for us. But God knows the heart and who are His and who are imposters.