Orans position

[Brain]

I like to make use of varing postures as I pray, they are always reverent and generally appropriate to the type of prayer i am saying. (eg if I am alone with the blessed sacament i spend at least a little time prostrate, or i kneel or genuiflect when i mention the incarnation or the eucharist in private prayer, like the fourth luminous mystery or the one line in the angelus and creeds)

anyway my question is that, i know i am a layman, but since i am saying private devtions, is it OK to use the orans position? I am aware that publicly ONLY an ordained person should be using this postion, but is it OK to do it privatly?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Brain:

I like to make use of varing postures as I pray, they are always reverent and generally appropriate to the type of prayer i am saying. (eg if I am alone with the blessed sacament i spend at least a little time prostrate, or i kneel or genuiflect when i mention the incarnation or the eucharist in private prayer, like the fourth luminous mystery or the one line in the angelus and creeds)

anyway my question is that, i know i am a layman, but since i am saying private devtions, is it OK to use the orans position? I am aware that publicly ONLY an ordained person should be using this postion, but is it OK to do it privatly?

Well, the orans position is one of the ancient positions of prayer and there is nothing that restricts it to the clergy. In fact, this is the posture used by Eastern Catholics who follow the Byzantine Rite when praying the Lord’s Prayer! Use it as you wish!

Deacon Ed

 

[netmilsmom]

Brain:

I like to make use of varing postures as I pray, they are always reverent and generally appropriate to the type of prayer i am saying. (eg if I am alone with the blessed sacament i spend at least a little time prostrate, or i kneel or genuiflect when i mention the incarnation or the eucharist in private prayer, like the fourth luminous mystery or the one line in the angelus and creeds)

anyway my question is that, i know i am a layman, but since i am saying private devtions, is it OK to use the orans position? I am aware that publicly ONLY an ordained person should be using this postion, but is it OK to do it privatly?

First of all, what a wonderful thing it is that you lay prostrate! You have a true understanding of the Blessed Sacrament!

Next, the Orans position is a prayer posture that is NOT for the clergy only. In private prayer, Orans is not a problem. In the Holy Mass it is reserved for the clergy.

Here is an answer for you…
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9903qq.asp

 

[mosher]

I remember getting into a discussion with a friend at the seminary about this. I was arguing pro-orans in the liturgy by the laity and I made the statement that it was a common posture in the early church and he retorted with “this isn’t the early Church.” Which while being curt there is a depth of liturgical understanding in his statement and I didn’t persue it further because he was right.

 

[Searching13]

Hi,
My understanding is that this was never specifically addressed in the GIRM and there are conflicting interpretations.

I believe in this type of situation it is best to go with the instructions of your Pastor or the majority of the community. (I would ask my Pastor, if I thought something was out of order.)

 

[Patchunky]

One of the people’s prayers from the Liturgy of Pre-Sanctified Gifts is: "Let my prayer ascend to You like incense, and the LIFTING UP OF MY HANDS, like an evening sacrifice."

Hope this helps…

 

[netmilsmom]

Patchunky:

One of the people’s prayers from the Liturgy of Pre-Sanctified Gifts is: “Let my prayer ascend to You like incense, and the LIFTING UP OF MY HANDS, like an evening sacrifice.”

Hope this helps…

Who ever said that it means palms up?
I have many times lifted my hand in a “Praying Hands” position.
To my lips, to my forehead, just up to Our Lord.
It doesn’t say, “Lift your palms.”

That being said, whatever makes one feel more holy, outside of the liturgy, is wonderful.

 

[JButky]

Brain:

anyway my question is that, i know i am a layman, but since i am saying private devtions, is it OK to use the orans position? I am aware that publicly ONLY an ordained person should be using this postion, but is it OK to do it privatly?

Private prayer is just that…private. I don’t know of any restrictions on how one should pray privately. (nor should there be for genuine prayer.)

As far as publicly in terms of the Mass, there is an interesting article here:

About the Orans Posture

Joe B

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

Hi,
My understanding is that this was never specifically addressed in the GIRM and there are conflicting interpretations.

It was not addressed in the GIRM because it was addressed in many other documents like the Code of Cannon Law 83CIC/83907

“In the celebration of the Eucharist, Deacons and lay persons are not permitted to say the prayers, especially the Eucharistic Prayer, nor to perform the actions which are proper to the celebrating Priest.”

Also Ceremonial of Bishops
“Customarily in the Church a bishop or presbyter addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched” (CB 104).

Also Book of Blessings
"…whenever there is a blessing which can be performed either by a member of the clergy or the laity, the rubrics invariably directs that “A minister who is a priest or deacon says the prayer of blessing with hands outstretched; a lay minister says the prayer with hands joined” (BB 1999).

Instruction on Collaboration (Nov. 13, 1997)
“Neither may . . . non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the . . . priest celebrant” (ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2).

Most of this is found right on CA.

This is for the liturgy.
For private prayer, whatever will bring you closer to God is wonderful.

 

[mosher]

Also, in the GIRM it states that innovations from the laiety or priest are prohibited. When the GIRM is silent that does not give license to do something where no provision exists to do something.

 

[netmilsmom]

mosher:

Also, in the GIRM it states that innovations from the laiety or priest are prohibited. When the GIRM is silent that does not give license to do something where no provision exists to do something.

Which means no BBQ, no juggling, no dogs and no Orans.
But MANY people here don’t see it that way…

 

[Searching13]

We are speaking of the liturgy. The liturgical committee has chosen to not address this situation, after much ado about it.

As I said, there are many interpretations—I would follow my Pastor

You do what you feel is the right thing for you.

If anyone reports this as an abuse, I would definitely want to know what response is given–both by the ordinary and the Vatican.

 

[Searching13]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Which means no BBQ, no juggling, no dogs and no Orans.
But MANY people here don’t see it that way…

So you are equating the Orans position with BBQing, dogs and juggling???–

This is worse form than pointing out a typo.

 

[mosher]

Searching13:

We are speaking of the liturgy. The liturgical committee has chosen to not address this situation, after much ado about it.

As I said, there are many interpretations—I would follow my Pastor

You do what you feel is the right thing for you.

If anyone reports this as an abuse, I would definitely want to know what response is given–both by the ordinary and the Vatican.

Unfortunally blind obedience is not a virtue and subjective selection of normative actions is not rational nor is it correct as a result. A pastor does not have competance to make a determination on the liturgy because the documents do not give him that right. This is a question that I have brought to my Archbishop and his comment to me was that it was an abuse and that it is a concern of the Bishops Conference as well as a concern of the Holy See. The tabula rasa on this issue is that if the rubrics are silent it does not imply that something that is novel is given license.

 

[Searching13]

mosher:

. A pastor does not have competance to make a determination on the liturgy because the documents do not give him that right. This is a question that I have brought to my Archbishop and his comment to me was that it was an abuse and that it is a concern of the Bishops Conference as well as a concern of the Holy See. The tabula rasa on this issue is that if the rubrics are silent it does not imply that something that is novel is given license.

This is his interpretation. The USCCB has said
*

Orans

Many Catholics are in the habit of holding their hands in the “Orans” posture during the Lord’s prayer along with the celebrant. Some do this on their own as a private devotional posture while some congregations make it a general practice for their communities.

Is this practice permissible under the current rubrics, either as a private practice not something adopted by a particular parish as a communal gesture? No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.

Email us at bcl@usccb.org
Committee on the Liturgy | 3211 4th Street, N.E., Washington DC 20017-1194 | (202) 541-3000 © USCCB. All rights reserved. *

A pastor does not have competance to make a determination on the liturgy because the documents do not give him that right

Perhaps his Bishop has given him authority in some matters of posture (which does fall under the authority of the Bishop.)

We are not speaking of major abuses—remember—Pick your battles

 

[mosher]

Searching13:

This is his interpretation. The USCCB has said
Perhaps his Bishop has given him authority in some matters of posture (which does fall under the authority of the Bishop.)

We are not speaking of major abuses—remember—Pick your battles

First, I don’t know how the quote gives any answer. Rather it just explains the practice. Also, the USCCB Liturgy Committee is a source that is not credable for an authentic interpretation on anything liturgical. It would be more credable to quote “Catholicism for Dummies” or some other banal resource.

Of course this is a minor abuse and these forums are for discussion on any topic. In practical application the more politically sensative approach you describe is waranted.

 

[Searching13]

mosher:

First, I don’t know how the quote gives any answer. Rather it just explains the practice. Also, the USCCB Liturgy Committee is a source that is not credable for an authentic interpretation on anything liturgical. It would be more credable to quote “Catholicism for Dummies” or some other banal resource.
.

, the USCCB Liturgy Committee is a source that is not credable for an authentic interpretation on anything liturgical

Are you serious??—Perhaps you should send that remark off to Rome. I think the GIRM does contradict you

(and I think I’ll go with the GIRM)

I am not going to waste my time and yours, quoting the GIRM, which does give much authority to the Bishop (posture is one area specifically mentioned)

Again, please let me know the response when you register your complaint with either the Bishop or the Vatican.

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

So you are equating the Orans position with BBQing, dogs and juggling???–

This is worse form than pointing out a typo.

I know you’re new so I’ll explain it.
Many of us were on a thread where the Orans Position was discussed. You weren’t here yet. The person I wrote to got what I was saying.

There was a thread stating that the priest was bringing a dog to Holy Mass. Because it was not specifically stated in the GIRM, it was questioned whether or not it was allowed. Just like the Orans.

BTW, the comment about typos was meant to be helpful. I tried to be nice about it. I have seen boards where people are blasted for making fun of other’s typos. Just thought I would help.
I’m sorry if I offended you stating

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

We are speaking of the liturgy. The liturgical committee has chosen to not address this situation, after much ado about it.

As I said, there are many interpretations—I would follow my Pastor

You do what you feel is the right thing for you.

If anyone reports this as an abuse, I would definitely want to know what response is given–both by the ordinary and the Vatican.

You are focusing on ONE document among many. Your pastor is not the final word on anything in your Diocese. That is your Bishop. Depending on where you are, depends on what the Bishops are saying.
In one of the most Charistmatic Diocese, Steubenville, the Bishop told me that the reason why this was not addressed is because it is made clear in the other documents. Anyone encouraging the Orans in the Liturgy is ignoring the other documents that already addressed it.

In private prayer, the Orans is wonderful.
In the liturgy, it is reserved for the priest.

 

[Searching13]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

You are focusing on ONE document among many. Your pastor is not the final word on anything in your Diocese. That is your Bishop. Depending on where you are, depends on what the Bishops are saying.
In one of the most Charistmatic Diocese, Steubenville, the Bishop told me that the reason why this was not addressed is because it is made clear in the other documents. Anyone encouraging the Orans in the Liturgy is ignoring the other documents that already addressed it.

In private prayer, the Orans is wonderful.
In the liturgy, it is reserved for the priest.

For the last time–(I promise ) this is one interpretation. Others disagree.

You follow what you choose, (and I certainly hope you understand the difference betwen Juggling, dogs, BBQing and the Orans position)