Orans position

[detoutcoeur]

No position is prescribed in the Roman Missal for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/order-of-mass/liturgy-of-the-eucharist/posture-during-the-eucharistic-prayer-and-our-father.cfm

YiSan,
The operative word in this sentence is “No”. It says that there is “No…assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer” (assembly=congregation). Thus the orans position is reserved for the priest alone.
So be at peace. Simply stand, focus on the altar, and immerse yourself in the prayer.

 

[goout]

YiSan,
The operative word in this sentence is “No”. It says that there is “No…assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer” (assembly=congregation). Thus the orans position is reserved for the priest alone.
So be at peace. Simply stand, focus on the altar, and immerse yourself in the prayer.

Stand as you are and be at peace. There are many more pressing concerns in your parish that can benefit from your attention

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Why I would do it is due to the slightly confusing document shown in the link below. It actually appears to waffle back and forth in my humble opinion.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

Additionally as I stated, I did NOT want to alienate anyone. I also stated that although I would not want to alienate anyone, IF I was correct, I would speak to them out of a desire to do what is right. I have no ego here, my effort to do the correct thing is completely altruistic and out of a growing love for the Catholic Church!

Additionally, I for one am not concerned whether or not the Roman Missal does or does not state if we should use that posture. It also does not tell me to stand on one foot and put my hands on top of my head either (if you see where I am going with that). The missal I use (Saint Joseph), only states to stand for the our father. It does NOT state that we should use the Orans position. I don’t want to add or take away from the “correct” instructions. I am only concerned as to the correct use of the Orans position. So, to make a long story short. After receiving several wonderful comments from the experienced Catholics here, I am going to take it up with my Deacon and my Priest and see if they can set me on the correct path. As we used to say in the Army, I am not interested in half stepping. I fervently want to do what is correct, not just what I THINK is correct.

Yisan,

I feel compelled to write a couple of things to you.

1. I am recently back at Mass. I am in Australia. My congregation is very multicultural, women in Saris, women with head coverings, people in thongs and boardshorts, people in Sunday best western style, people with hands out and open or in closed hands prayer position, religious in pews in uniform or non, depending on their order. People who kneel at the Agni Dei and not after. Its all good. The sea of people is there to Worship God.
2. Don Ruggero is a Priest. Don Ruggero also taught Theology as a Professor. Don Ruggero is well travelled and knows lots about different Catholic traditions. Going from Don Ruggero’s posts.
3. So it follows, if Don Ruggero gives advice on hand position for the Laity during The Lord’s Prayer, it would be the most non error advice we on the forum can have.

Did you realise Don Ruggero’s credentials?

God Bless Us on Our Journey Home.

 

[YiSan]

The reason it seems confused is because the document is an opinion piece, written by a lay person who has only a licentiate in theology; it is also not a licentiate in liturgy. He is trying to argue for a specific conclusion that he would like to advance but which cannot really be sustained liturgically.

If you are not concerned with what the Roman Missal says or does not say, your problem would be solved…since there is then no problem.

The rubrics do not say for the laity to extend hands or not extend hands. The rubrics do not say they can fold their hands or not fold their hands. Because that is a level of specificity beyond the concern of rubrics. Whether you pray with your hands extended, your palms flat against each other, your fingers interlaced or, for that matter, your hands stuck in your pockets, or holding the hand of the person next to you is the decision of the one praying. There are many things rubrics…for the presider, for the deacon, for the other ministers and for those assisting in the congregation…do not indicate.

The Americans, very memorably, needed the intervention of the Holy See a few years ago on the issue of rubrics because some Americans were overaggressive concerning them, trying to compel behaviour that was completely beyond the function of rubrics. At the time, I found it utterly remarkable that such could even happen…but I confess it is clearer to me, after time spent on this forum.

Yes, I would encourage you to speak to your parish priest so that he may explain the actual values involved when it comes to rubrics and their applications…which are not ends unto themselves.

Yes, Americans do indeed tend to be somewhat like a dog with a bone. Sometimes this is good and sometimes it is bad. Desiring to be specific on things isn’t a bad thing though. This question on Orans posture is a good example. I am concerned about doing specifically what is correct, if there is specifically a correct posture. If I was willing to just ignore the issue and do what is easy or comfortable, I might as well have stayed in the Episcopal Church (they have a concept of “via media” or of taking the middle of the road path). No offense meant to the Episcopal Church intended. I enjoyed my years there but I am drawn to they Catholic Church.

 

[YiSan]

Yisan,

I feel compelled to write a couple of things to you.

1. I am recently back at Mass. I am in Australia. My congregation is very multicultural, women in Saris, women with head coverings, people in thongs and boardshorts, people in Sunday best western style, people with hands out and open or in closed hands prayer position, religious in pews in uniform or non, depending on their order. People who kneel at the Agni Dei and not after. Its all good. The sea of people is there to Worship God.
2. Don Ruggero is a Priest. Don Ruggero also taught Theology as a Professor. Don Ruggero is well travelled and knows lots about different Catholic traditions. Going from Don Ruggero’s posts.
3. So it follows, if Don Ruggero gives advice on hand position for the Laity during The Lord’s Prayer, it would be the most non error advice we on the forum can have.

Did you realise Don Ruggero’s credentials?

God Bless Us on Our Journey Home.

I took his advice on this matter just as well as I would take anyone else’s post. If he is correct, then he is correct. Just like anyone else who took the time out of their busy day to post a message to assist me. If he is misguided then he would be misguided just like anyone else. We are all human. I received many opinions through these messages and I am grateful each and every one of them. The best thing for me to do now is to approach my priest and talk with him. I am sure that the Father will also be educated in the faith and a little face to face would work wonders to help me iron this out. Sooooooooo, I will just ask that this thread be closed and work things out Sunday after Mass.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Sooooooooo, I will just ask that this thread be closed and work things out Sunday after Mass.

That is not how this forum, and its associated sub-fora, works. In choosing to open a thread, a member has no control over its closure. That is purely at the discretion of the moderators.

 

[YiSan]

That is not how this forum, and its associated sub-fora, works. In choosing to open a thread, a member has no control over its closure. That is purely at the discretion of the moderators.

Please, feel free to keep posting then Don. I have my answer and will go on with it. Not too surprising, it doesn’t match yours. Go Figure. Have a nice day Don…

 

[po18guy]

IMO, the assumption of the orans position is a result of the blurring of the lines between clergy and laity over the past several decades. Since prayer emanates from our hearts, I scarcely think that we will ultimately be penalized because our hands or arms were held wrongly!

Having said that, I am immunosuppressed and the flu carries the potential to be a fatal illness for me. Thus, holding one’s hands outward may encourage others to grasp them as is seen in many parishes. I offer the Lord’s prayer with my palms together in the classic Albrecht Dürer “praying hands” position.

We all are members of the Body of Christ, but I am not, in any liturgical sense in persona Christi.

 

[LiamQ]

The rubrics do not say for the laity to extend hands or not extend hands. The rubrics do not say they can fold their hands or not fold their hands. Because that is a level of specificity beyond the concern of rubrics. Whether you pray with your hands extended, your palms flat against each other, your fingers interlaced or, for that matter, your hands stuck in your pockets, or holding the hand of the person next to you is the decision of the one praying.

Excuse me, Father, but even certain Bishops have written to the faithful in their Diocese stating that since “[n]o gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful” during the Our Father, then it is only sensible that “the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.”

I don’t know if this is an example of the overagression you mentioned later in this post, but I would consider this a fairly reliable piece of evidence that your opinion is one that is not shared by all of those who have authority in the Church.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Please, feel free to keep posting then Don. I have my answer and will go on with it. Not too surprising, it doesn’t match yours. Go Figure. Have a nice day Don…

No…it is hardly my intention to keep posting.

I note that you are a new member and the statement was simply a cautionary one. New members, not infrequently, will post something and then feel that their thread should be closed but the rules of the forum leave that decision with the moderators…who created various rules about at what point one was to not post on an inactive thread and so forth.

Rarely are threads here locked, which often causes much misunderstanding.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Excuse me, Father, but even certain Bishops have written to the faithful in their Diocese stating that since “[n]o gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful” during the Our Father, then it is only sensible that “the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.”

I don’t know if this is an example of the overagression you mentioned later in this post, but I would consider this a fairly reliable piece of evidence that your opinion is one that is not shared by all of those who have authority in the Church.

In fact, you cite the only American bishop that I am aware of who made this issue a matter of particular law in his diocese.

Yes, bishops are of varying minds…I remember the question was posed during the 2005 synod of bishops, which concerned the Eucharist. There were requests for clarification of the Holy See’s mind on the matter. The response, like that of a more recent query, was silence.

Actually, the over-aggression I had in mind as I wrote involved the posture of the lay faithful from the moment of the beginning of the Communion Procession until the moment of the Post Communion Prayer. Various quarters within the United States began a rigid approach that ultimately caused the President of the US Bishops Conference, the late Cardinal George, to appeal for help to the Cardinal Prefect of the CDWDS as the situation worsened.

The Cardinal Prefect said that the relevant norms were intended “to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture” but at the same time “to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.”

It was Cardinal Arinze’s remark of the rigidity being expressed…a rigidity that would even necessitate an intervention by his dicastery…that I was remarking. Even after all these years, that the Americans could become so fixated on such a matter as that really was – and remains – vividly astonishing.

 

[babochka]

1. I am recently back at Mass. I am in Australia. My congregation is very multicultural, women in Saris, women with head coverings, people in thongs and boardshorts, people in Sunday best western style, people with hands out and open or in closed hands prayer position, religious in pews in uniform or non, depending on their order. People who kneel at the Agni Dei and not after. Its all good. The sea of people is there to Worship God.

.

I don’t want to derail this thread, but this is beautiful.

It sounds like attending Mass at the Cathedral in my city. I’ve rarely been there on a Sunday, but on any given weekday, you’ll find a cross-section of humanity - state workers on their lunch break, homeless people who have wandered in to pray or just to stay warm, mothers with their children, tourists who have come to see the beauty of the Cathedral and stayed for Mass - all are welcome and all come as they are to worship and to pray. I live in one of the most diverse cities (and the most integrated city, according to one study) in the U.S. and it shows in the diversity people and cultural styles in the congregation.

The liturgy is always beautiful and impeccable, but nobody really cares if some people hold hands, others use the orans position and others stand quietly with hands folded. I’m a "stand-quietly-with-hands-folded sort of person (If I’m not tending to my children, which I usually am), but I really don’t pay that much attention to what everyone else is doing.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I don’t want to derail this thread, but this is beautiful.

It sounds like attending Mass at the Cathedral in my city. I’ve rarely been there on a Sunday, but on any given weekday, you’ll find a cross-section of humanity - state workers on their lunch break, homeless people who have wandered in to pray or just to stay warm, mothers with their children, tourists who have come to see the beauty of the Cathedral and stayed for Mass - all are welcome and all come as they are to worship and to pray. I live in one of the most diverse cities (and the most integrated city, according to one study) in the U.S. and it shows in the diversity people and cultural styles in the congregation.

The liturgy is always beautiful and impeccable, but nobody really cares if some people hold hands, others use the orans position and others stand quietly with hands folded. I’m a "stand-quietly-with-hands-folded sort of person (If I’m not tending to my children, which I usually am), but I really don’t pay that much attention to what everyone else is doing.

The same is true in our larger cities in Europe, where we also have many tourists as well as a very international population, from other EU countries and beyond.

 

[Brendan_64]

I once attended a Mass where the congregation were instructed by the priest to hold hands during the Our Father. I have also attended a Mass where the congregation were instructed by the priest to all raise their hands in the Orans position during the Our Father. In both cases I just kept my hands folded as I usually do.

Where everyone else was holding their hands in the Orans position and I wasn’t, it didn’t bother me that much, but in the case where hands were all held and mine were not, it created a feeling of a ‘closed circle’ with those outside the circle excluded.

If people want to adopt a posture themselves individually then that is their business, but when people start holding hands with others they should be aware that this may create an atmosphere of exclusion rather than inclusion.

 

[Horton]

Please, feel free to keep posting then Don. I have my answer and will go on with it. Not too surprising, it doesn’t match yours. Go Figure. Have a nice day Don…

As you are new to the Church and to these forms I would like to gently let you know disagreement is a frequent occurrence. As participants we can either become disagreeable posters or we can be gracious in accepting others may not agree with us.

Another thing is priests should always be addressed as Father. There may be times one doesn’t know a poster is a priest but Father Don Ruggero mentioned he is a priest and I believe one other poster mentioned it. This is not to say we have to always agree with priests but we must always be respectful to our beloved priests of the Catholic Church.

 

[WingsOfEagles]

As you are new to the Church and to these forms I would like to gently let you know disagreement is a frequent occurrence. As participants we can either become disagreeable posters or we can be gracious in accepting others may not agree with us.

Another thing is priests should always be addressed as Father. There may be times one doesn’t know a poster is a priest but Father Don Ruggero mentioned he is a priest and I believe one other poster mentioned it. This is not to say we have to always agree with priests but we must always be respectful to our beloved priests of the Catholic Church.

True, although Father’s screen name is “Don Ruggero”, so I’m sure he wasn’t too offended. “Don” in Spanish is also a title of respect.

 

[Kielbasi]

Another thing is priests should always be addressed as Father. There may be times one doesn’t know a poster is a priest but Father Don Ruggero mentioned he is a priest .

“don” means “father” in other languages and is applied to priests, the man’s actual name may or may not be Don.

In any event, as far as the OP, I don’t see this as a large issue. It isn’t sacrilegious either way, whatever is comfortable for the faithful would seem fine.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

IMO, the assumption of the orans position is a result of the blurring of the lines between clergy and laity over the past several decades. Since prayer emanates from our hearts, I scarcely think that we will ultimately be penalized because our hands or arms were held wrongly!

Having said that, I am immunosuppressed and the flu carries the potential to be a fatal illness for me. Thus, holding one’s hands outward may encourage others to grasp them as is seen in many parishes. I offer the Lord’s prayer with my palms together in the classic Albrecht Dürer “praying hands” position.

We all are members of the Body of Christ, but I am not, in any liturgical sense in persona Christi.

As with a number of things since Vatican II and Sacrosanctum Concilium’s call to recover things lost to us by accident of history, I do not see the recovery of the orans posture in the West to be a blurring of lines between clergy and laity…I consider it to be a recovery.

The Blessed Virgin in prayer in the East…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Don_Ruggero]

As you are new to the Church and to these forms I would like to gently let you know disagreement is a frequent occurrence. As participants we can either become disagreeable posters or we can be gracious in accepting others may not agree with us.

Another thing is priests should always be addressed as Father. There may be times one doesn’t know a poster is a priest but Father Don Ruggero mentioned he is a priest and I believe one other poster mentioned it. This is not to say we have to always agree with priests but we must always be respectful to our beloved priests of the Catholic Church.

That is a very kind post for you to make, Horton. Thank you.

Indeed, Don is my title and is not my name. We use different honorifics to distinguish between those who are Diocesan Priests and those who are Religious Priests…just as in French, there is the distinction between Abbé and Père.

Thus, to say Don Ruggero is correct. Or one could say Father Ruggero, if you wished to use an American form of address with my name. Father Don would be to my ear more equivalent to an American saying or hearing, for example, Father Monsignor.

 

[goout]

As with a number of things since Vatican II and Sacrosanctum Concilium’s call to recover things lost to us by accident of history, I do not see the recovery of the orans posture in the West to be a blurring of lines between clergy and laity…I consider it to be a recovery.

The Blessed Virgin in prayer in the East…

http://www.skeparchy.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/oranta.jpg

In the US, that particular association with ancient traditions would be purely accidental.
The palms up posture in the US stems from an overdeveloped sense of egalitarianism, and a loss of the sense of uniqueness.This sense also spills over into other areas as well.
For instance, a sense of (false) egalitarianism informs the push for gay marriage.
It is best expressed by the words “we are all the same”.

There is a sense of truth in that and also a sense which is false and detracts from uniqueness.

If I had to voice why this particular issue strikes such a chord I believe this is it. It is people wanting to be something or someone they are not.
It doesn’t particularly bother me, but I can see how it is symptomatic of larger issues.