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goout
Guest
I really think this is one of those issues that Satan enjoys seeing us bicker over, while he is doing his work “out there”.
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TK421
Guest
The argument is pretty ridiculous because the GIRM doesn’t say to clasp your hands either, or any number of other things. It’s not like it’s going to mention every minute detail of body posture.Tis_Bearself:
I agree with you but there are folks who simply say if it is not in the GIRM then by default it is not allowed (this applies to everything). I don’t buy into this argument.
So yes, the orans is fine.
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pulchraesamicamea
Guest
Charismatic Renewal is an approved movement in the Catholic Church. I was in the Charismatic Renewal movement for years and I never saw an orans posture being used. Outstretched hands, yes, but not the orans.
And the Charismatic Catholics are not like the Pentecostalists or any Protestant denomination. In fact, we had Eucharist Adoration as a centre of our prayer meetings, held after Mass.
And the Charismatic Catholics are not like the Pentecostalists or any Protestant denomination. In fact, we had Eucharist Adoration as a centre of our prayer meetings, held after Mass.
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Dovekin
Guest
Raised hands while reciting the Our Father is an ancient custom in some Eatern Churches, like the Maronite.
I suspect that in the 90s the US bishops decided to adopt this practice in order to discourage hand holding. Give them something to do with their hands, other than holding them. That got mixed in with a number of other changes which were shelved while translation issues were addressed. I suspect that happened, but I do not know. I just vaguely remember things said when it was introduced in my parish.
The underlying issue is that it is the posture used when praying. A priest often says prayers on our behalf, so he is the only one using that posture. But we all pray the Our Father together and there is no reason to single out the priest. Perhaps St Augustine is pertinent here: “For you I am a bishop, but with you, I am a Christian.”
I suspect that in the 90s the US bishops decided to adopt this practice in order to discourage hand holding. Give them something to do with their hands, other than holding them. That got mixed in with a number of other changes which were shelved while translation issues were addressed. I suspect that happened, but I do not know. I just vaguely remember things said when it was introduced in my parish.
The underlying issue is that it is the posture used when praying. A priest often says prayers on our behalf, so he is the only one using that posture. But we all pray the Our Father together and there is no reason to single out the priest. Perhaps St Augustine is pertinent here: “For you I am a bishop, but with you, I am a Christian.”
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JohnLilburne
Guest
Maybe the GIRM does not say that the altar servers clasp their hands. But it does have this in the Ceremonial of Bishops, another official liturgical book. See my post no. 4 above.
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JohnLilburne
Guest
From GIRM 42, under the heading “Gestures and Bodily Posture”: “Attention must therefore be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and by the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what servers the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
A common bodily posture, to be observed by all those taking part, is a sign of unity of the member of the Christian community gathered together for the Sacred Liturgy, for it expresses the intentions and spiritual attitude of the participants and also fosters them.”
[Excerpt from the English translation of The Roman Missal © 2010, International Commission on English in the Liturgy Corporation. All rights reserved.]
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Yes, and when they keep changing the “common bodily posture” and someone is already used to/ has been taught to do a different one, they’re the ones disrupting the “unity”, not me.
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JanetF
Guest
po18guy
Well-known member
Well, most are simply Catholics. However, they have a special focus on and devotion to the Holy Spirit, have prayed for the revelation of, the release of, and the use of their charisms.
All Catholics have charisms, but I suspect that few know what they are. Read Matthew 25:14-30. I see this as applying to the charisms (gifts/talents) we were given at Baptism and Confirmation. We’d best have an answer as to what we did with them when we are called to judgment.
Now, as to charismatics, the preacher of the Papal household, Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, is a charismatic Franciscan. Neither Pope Benedict XVI nor Pope Francis have tossed him out. Rather, they listen to his homilies. There is a message there.
http://www.cantalamessa.org/?lang=en
If you are not, you - yes, you - should be a charismatic - at least to the degree of knowing your charisms (if you do not already) and putting them to work building up the Church. You may have a quiet charism, as I do. Not loud, showy or flashy. Unnoticed by almost everyone. But still given to me as a gift.
All Catholics have charisms, but I suspect that few know what they are. Read Matthew 25:14-30. I see this as applying to the charisms (gifts/talents) we were given at Baptism and Confirmation. We’d best have an answer as to what we did with them when we are called to judgment.
Now, as to charismatics, the preacher of the Papal household, Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, is a charismatic Franciscan. Neither Pope Benedict XVI nor Pope Francis have tossed him out. Rather, they listen to his homilies. There is a message there.
http://www.cantalamessa.org/?lang=en
If you are not, you - yes, you - should be a charismatic - at least to the degree of knowing your charisms (if you do not already) and putting them to work building up the Church. You may have a quiet charism, as I do. Not loud, showy or flashy. Unnoticed by almost everyone. But still given to me as a gift.
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CRV
Guest
On the Orans posture at Mass-
GIRM - USA # 152 & 153 rubrics for the Priest and the orans position:-
"152. After the Eucharistic Prayer is concluded, the Priest, with hands joined, says alone the introduction to the Lord’s Prayer, and then with hands extended, he pronounces the prayer together with the people.
So yes, whilst there are not instructions what the laity should do with regard to the orans posture, if it were permitted it would be stated that that is what the laity is to do at that point in the Mass. It is stipulated for the priest but not stipulated for the laity, therefore my take from this is that only the priest is to do this.
INSTRUCTION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS REGARDING THE COLLABORATION OF THE NON-ORDAINED FAITHFUL IN THE SACRED MINISTRY OF PRIEST Article 6, Liturgical Celebrations, "§ 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of Canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant."
(Bold and italics are mine.)
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GIRM - USA # 152 & 153 rubrics for the Priest and the orans position:-
"152. After the Eucharistic Prayer is concluded, the Priest, with hands joined, says alone the introduction to the Lord’s Prayer, and then with hands extended, he pronounces the prayer together with the people.
- After the Lord’s Prayer is concluded, the Priest, with hands extended, says alone the embolism Libera nos (Deliver us, Lord). At the end, the people acclaim, For the kingdom.
So yes, whilst there are not instructions what the laity should do with regard to the orans posture, if it were permitted it would be stated that that is what the laity is to do at that point in the Mass. It is stipulated for the priest but not stipulated for the laity, therefore my take from this is that only the priest is to do this.
INSTRUCTION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS REGARDING THE COLLABORATION OF THE NON-ORDAINED FAITHFUL IN THE SACRED MINISTRY OF PRIEST Article 6, Liturgical Celebrations, "§ 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of Canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant."
(Bold and italics are mine.)
continued below:-
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CRV
Guest
continued-
Dr Ed Peters 2015 - Another look at the Orans Issue " While the orans position as such has a rich tradition in Jewish and even ancient Christian prayer life, there is no precedent for Catholic laity assuming the orans position in Western liturgy for at least a millennium and a half; that point alone cautions against its introduction without careful thought. Moreover — and notwithstanding the fact that few liturgical gestures are univocal per se — lay use of the orans gesture in Mass today, besides injecting gestural disunity in liturgy, could further blur the differences between lay liturgical roles and those of priests just at a time when distinctions between the baptismal priesthood and the ordained priesthood are struggling for a healthy articulation." The whole article is worth reading.
About that Orans Posture an article from 2003
EWTN Q & A Response mandated orans position of laity answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 11-05-2004
Dr Ed Peters 2015 - Another look at the Orans Issue " While the orans position as such has a rich tradition in Jewish and even ancient Christian prayer life, there is no precedent for Catholic laity assuming the orans position in Western liturgy for at least a millennium and a half; that point alone cautions against its introduction without careful thought. Moreover — and notwithstanding the fact that few liturgical gestures are univocal per se — lay use of the orans gesture in Mass today, besides injecting gestural disunity in liturgy, could further blur the differences between lay liturgical roles and those of priests just at a time when distinctions between the baptismal priesthood and the ordained priesthood are struggling for a healthy articulation." The whole article is worth reading.
About that Orans Posture an article from 2003
EWTN Q & A Response mandated orans position of laity answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 11-05-2004
Dear Father’What is the importance of posture in prayer? by Msgr. Matthew Mitas 2008 “In the 1990s, many of our American bishops were disturbed that a great number of our people had adopted the practice of holding hands at the praying of the Lord’s Prayer, another practice not mandated. Unsure of how best to bring this abuse to a halt, they proposed making the orans posture mandatory for all the faithful at Mass, and petitioned the pope to ratify the change. The Holy Father, however, rejected their petition, because the orans posture is recognized as a priestly posture and inappropriate for the laity to assume at Mass.”
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Dovekin
Guest
Ed Peters reply- just the excerpts, i did not read the whole thing again- sets out the problem but his solution is questionable. I am not sure how to explain this, but I will try.
In the Eucharistic prayer:
the priest prays, uses orans.
People do not pray, do not use orans
During the Lord’s prayer:
the priest prays and uses orans.
the people pray together with him, do not use orans.
In this scheme, the priest uses the orans when he prays, but the people do nothing in either situation.
The alternate scheme:
Eucharistic prayer:
Priest prays, uses orans.
People do not pray, do not use orans.
Our Father:
Priest prays, uses orans.
People pray, use orans.
In this scheme, the orans is used whenever people pray aloud, whether priest or people. There is a connection of orans to prayer.
Which scheme would you use to teach that only the priest prays aloud during the Eucharistic Prayer? The one that makes it obvious when people pray along with the priest? Or the first scheme, when there are no postural cues to what the people are doing?
To reserve the Eucharistic prayer to the priest, which is what Peters wants, the 2nd scheme works better.
Thanks for the info from Msgr. Mitas. I would be happier if there were documentary support of rejection by the Vatican; I think it just got lost in the shuffle of rejecting the 2nd ICEL Missal translation. But I really do not recall.
In the Eucharistic prayer:
the priest prays, uses orans.
People do not pray, do not use orans
During the Lord’s prayer:
the priest prays and uses orans.
the people pray together with him, do not use orans.
In this scheme, the priest uses the orans when he prays, but the people do nothing in either situation.
The alternate scheme:
Eucharistic prayer:
Priest prays, uses orans.
People do not pray, do not use orans.
Our Father:
Priest prays, uses orans.
People pray, use orans.
In this scheme, the orans is used whenever people pray aloud, whether priest or people. There is a connection of orans to prayer.
Which scheme would you use to teach that only the priest prays aloud during the Eucharistic Prayer? The one that makes it obvious when people pray along with the priest? Or the first scheme, when there are no postural cues to what the people are doing?
To reserve the Eucharistic prayer to the priest, which is what Peters wants, the 2nd scheme works better.
Thanks for the info from Msgr. Mitas. I would be happier if there were documentary support of rejection by the Vatican; I think it just got lost in the shuffle of rejecting the 2nd ICEL Missal translation. But I really do not recall.
J
JohnLilburne
Guest
To quote Father Cantalamessa: “First and foremost it is important to say that “Charismatic” needs to remain an adjective and never be a noun. In other words, we must absolutely avoid the use of the term “charismatics” to describe people who have experienced the Renewal. If anything, we should use the words “renewed Christians,” not “charismatics.” The use of this term rightly arouses resentment because it creates discrimination among the members of the body of Christ, as if some people are gifted with charisms and some are not.”
This is from the beginning of Part 2 at https://www.charis.international/en...ewal-a-current-of-grace-for-the-whole-church/
This is from the beginning of Part 2 at https://www.charis.international/en...ewal-a-current-of-grace-for-the-whole-church/
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twf
Guest
Yeah, it annoys me that within my province things aren’t even consistent. I live in the archdiocese, and here we kneel during the entire Eucharistic Prayer, after the Agnus Dei, and then again after returning to our pews after receiving communion. In the neighboring diocese, which I visit periodically, which is a suffragan of our archdiocese, the faithful kneel only for the consecration and remain standing during Communion time until everyone has received…there’s nothing wrong with it, but it bugs me on a personal level.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I don’t get bugged by it. I’m just done with playing switcheroo on the gestures every time I happen to be in a different diocese (I’ve been to Mass in four different dioceses in the past 2 weeks) and the bishop there is doing something different. I decided a while ago I’m just doing the same thing everyplace I go.
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