Orans Posture

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Does it make a difference? I have been praying for about three months for my grand daughter. I have lit maybe five candles at Our Lady’s Altar and prayed many times asking Her to ask Her Son to help my grand daughter. I have prayed at the Altar Rail, in the pews, on my knees at home and at night. I have prayed mentally, I mostly pray out loud. I have prayed to God the Father and the Holy Spirit too.

But there have been no positive results Does it really make any difference how we pray? I don’t know yet.
 
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Mysty101:
Use common sense. Folded hands is not mentioned in the rubrics, yet of course it is allowed.
from the USCCB site
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Pardon me? I have used some common sense as I look at reality.
When someone starts an unusual posture and some people go along, then it snowballs because many of the people just do what everyone else does, then it becomes a norm and we are suppose to accept it.

It happened in my old parish where the DRE hired 5 years ago was Charismatic. She got one of her daughters hired and her other ran the youth group. Within that five years, they led the congregation (which they didn’t bother to instruct with any Catholic teachings) from folding hands during the Our Father to raising holded hands above their heads. Now it is a norm. Not because people wanted it, but because they are clueless and these women led them there.

If they wanted to lead these people into juggling. they would. Why not? We had dancing girls.

Crossing one’s head, lips and heart is mentioned, Orans is not for the people, only for the priest and not for the Laity.
 
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kmktexas:
The one that bothers me is the “scooping” that some people do for the “and also with you” and the “we lift them up to the Lord”. :confused: It is hard to ignore since they occur during a time when we are focused on Father. Those are clearly an attempt to imitate the gestures of the priest rather than simply assuming a prayerful pose (as some people argue for the Orans).
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Oh my Goodness!
That one cracks up my seven year old!!! I have to stop her from giggling. Scooping is a great way to put it.
She performs Polish Dance and that movement was in an American Dance that she did two years ago.
She told me in the car after seeing a visitor do this if that person was used to a Hula Mass!!!
 
I don’t see a problem with this. I’ve always thought it was an older tradition in the Church that hasn’t been continued by the younger generations, as the only people I’ve seen use this posture are older women and men. If it brings them closer to God in their prayer, I’ve got no problem with it.
 
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vegpotter:
I don’t see a problem with this. I’ve always thought it was an older tradition in the Church that hasn’t been continued by the younger generations, as the only people I’ve seen use this posture are older women and men. If it brings them closer to God in their prayer, I’ve got no problem with it.
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Please define “older”.
This posture was not part of the TLM nor the New Mass in the 70’s. I was there. (Shhhhh, I really am that old!)

Maybe us “old” people just need to “Catch more God!” as Peggy Noonan says about the Orans.:rotfl:

I’m so glad that you don’t see young people doing it. I’m teaching my children to stand with humility. With Jesus right there on the Altar during the Our Father, looking up to heaven is like ignoring Him in front of us. I truly don’t get it.
 
Let me put it in simple words…I AM NOT A FAN OF THE ORANS POSTURE. Maybe I just have too much time on my hands, but I severely dislike the Orans Posture and the holding of hands…Not only because it reminds me of stuff that goes on in an Evangelical Church…but just because it is not reverent and prayerful in my mind.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Pardon me? I have used some common sense as I look at reality.
When someone starts an unusual posture and some people go along, then it snowballs because many of the people just do what everyone else does, then it becomes a norm and we are suppose to accept it.
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Unusual? or different (as the lone kneeler ina standing procession?)

Just because you are not familiar with the position, this does not mean that no one should use it.
Crossing one’s head, lips and heart is mentioned, Orans is not for the people, only for the priest and not for the Laity
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And your validation of this statement? The orans position was considered for the GIRM instructions. Even though it no posture was instructed, the fact that it was considered would indicate that it is allowed.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Please define “older”.
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CHRISTOS ANESTI!
ALITHOS ANESTI!

This prayer position was part of the original “Mass” of the Catacombs in Ancient Rome and is STILL a prayer position in the churches of the Middle East!:yup:

If you take the time to look at any Eastern Catholic webpage, you find an ikon of the Virgin of the Sign, the Mother of God in the Orans position, is frequently painted on the back wall of the sanctuary of the temple, usually just above the Tabernacle:thumbsup:

XPUCTOCb BOCKPEC!
 
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Mysty101:
Unusual? or different (as the lone kneeler ina standing procession?)

Just because you are not familiar with the position, this does not mean that no one should use it…
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I’ll be looking forward to the juggling pictures.:rotfl:
No where in the ancient paintings do people hold hands and raise them. This is an unusual posture in the history of the Catholic church.
I’m sorry that someone tripped over a kneeling person. I wouldn’t be kneeling, I HAVE gone back for a later Holy Mass at my own parish to receive. However, Kneeling for communion is specifically allowed by the Vatican. Perhaps a person is from another country which is not under the US Bishops and visiting your church. That person IS allowed to kneel because he is NOT under a US Bishop.
That being said, If yours was a court case, the law would go against your burden of proof that injury was caused by the kneeling person.
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Mysty101:
And your validation of this statement? The orans position was considered for the GIRM instructions. Even though it no posture was instructed, the fact that it was considered would indicate that it is allowed.
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Yup! The orans was considered and not mentioned while other postures (i.e. crossing one’s head, lips and heart at the Gospel) are specifically mentioned.
If it is not mentioned, it is NOT the norm. To say that if it is not mentioned it’s okay, opens the floodgates.
I know you really want this to be so, but it’s simply that if it is not mentioned, it is not suppose to be done. It would be like my five year old stating that I never said she could not set fire to the cat. Somethings go without saying.
 
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Zosimus:
Why do people insist on doing the the orans posture?
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for the same reason they stand during the Eucharistic prayer, genuflect before receiving communion, hold hands during the Our Father, sing in the communion procession and so forth – at some point they belonged to a parish where the pastor instructed them that this was the proper procedure. We no longer have a universal church, with a shared liturgy, we have a do-it-yourself please yourself hodge podge of customs, gestures, postures and actions chosen at the whim of the priest or “liturgy coordinator”. these are promulgated and enforced without introduction or catechesis, and the faithful in the congregation struggle to adapt and do the right thing based on instructions and customs that vary from parish to parish and diocese to diocese.

Please do not make a blanket condemnation of people in the congregation who do - or do not - perform in the way you deem proper. At least half the parishes in this country have never introduced the GIRM and have no intention of doing so. Let us pray that this Pope who gave us the Spirit of the Liturgy, the finest book I have ever read on the Mass, will address this scandalous situation.
 
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Patchunky:
This prayer position was part of the original “Mass” of the Catacombs in Ancient Rome and is STILL a prayer position in the churches of the Middle East!:yup:
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There are many things in the churches of the Middle East that are not done in the Latin Rite.
I went to a funeral at a Polish Parish and could follow along but when a friend invited us to a Chaldean Catholic church in our area, I was a little lost.
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Patchunky:
If you take the time to look at any Eastern Catholic webpage, you find an ikon of the Virgin of the Sign, the Mother of God in the Orans position, is frequently painted on the back wall of the sanctuary of the temple, usually just above the Tabernacle:thumbsup:
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Perhaps you have not see the Orans position that the Roman Catholics are using. Elbows on the hips and palms pointed up. In the Virgin of the Sign (I tried to post a picture and couldn’t do it) Her palms are pointed toward the people. In the ancient painting, the arms are held up high above the head and the person is looking up.

BTW, the question of “older” was to a poster who stated that the “older” people used the orans. This poster was not speaking about Catacombs, but rather people in the modern church.
 
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puzzleannie:
Let us pray that this Pope who gave us the Spirit of the Liturgy, the finest book I have ever read on the Mass, will address this scandalous situation.
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You! my friend are very wise!

I will do whatever I am directed to do, once we are on the same page.
Until then, I stay at my parish with an EWTN type Holy Mass and if I am somewhere else, stay away from the crowd if they are doing something I am uncomfortable with.
 
i was about to raise my hand to ask a question, but then i thought i had better not… sheese…

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I would bet that if people, and I am talking about people who claim to be Catholic were honest that a vast majority would admit that they really don’t know what is supposed to happen at the Mass. How many people were taught Religion in school before Vatican II and how many after? What exactly are they teaching? How many people have the old and the new way mixed up? Who really teaches us what is correct? You move into a new Parish and you just pretty much accept what is done there. Hands up in prayer, hand holding, standing at certain times, kneeling at others, bowing your head here, crossing yourself there, bells ringing, incense burning. It all gets very confusing and I am 52 years old and have moved many times throughout my life so far. We need a universal teaching of the Catechism Of The Catholic Church. I am embarrassed to say that I didn’t even know this book existed until about 2 years ago. I wish each Parish could have a study group and go through the book from cover to cover. First what would have to happen is that the people that would be teaching/leading the group would all need to go through the same training so they would all be on the same page as to what to pass on to the community? This is just my two cents.
 
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Virgin of the Orans/Sign from an ancient church in Cappadocia. The arch above the sanctuary…
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
See how the palms are facing you?
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This is because this is a mosaic, **NOT **a 3 dimensional statue. Even in an ikon, the cannons have the hands facing the viewer. The actual prayer position has the palms turned to God in Heaven…
 
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Patchunky:
This is because this is a mosaic, **NOT **a 3 dimensional statue. Even in an ikon, the cannons have the hands facing the viewer. The actual prayer position has the palms turned to God in Heaven…
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But that is what people are basing the Orans position on. The icons, the paintings show that the Orans position is an ancient posititon. Okay, that’s fine, but if one is doing this because of paintings and icons then the palms of Our Lord, Our Mother and the saints point toward you.
In the ancient paintings, the hands are lifted above the head with eyes up. Not simply from the waist with palms up.
When a Roman Catholic is using the Orans position in the Our Father, Jesus is on the altar. The priest is welcoming his flock to the words by pointing the palms toward them. What are the people doing? If the palms face the priest, it’s a mimick. If the palms face up, it is ignoring the fact that Jesus is right there.

Please don’t misunderstand me. The Orans position in prayer is not unwarranted. However, at the Our Father in Holy Mass, it is something else.
 
And your validation of this statement? The orans position was considered for the GIRM instructions. Even though it no posture was instructed, the fact that it was considered would indicate that it is allowed.
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Actually, the fact that it was considered and then NOT submitted for approval would indicate that it is NOT allowed yet. The bishops could have requested it but chose not to.
 
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