Orans vs. Handholding

[otm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

How do you know what God cares about? Just because you feel that way? How do you know that He doesn’t care whether or not we concentrate on the community over Him?

I don’t think that she said anything about consentrating on community over God; in re-reading her statement, I think what she was saying was that our attitude towards God and one another perhaps take precedence over a strict interpretation and imposition of a rule that is not a moral rule. In that, she certainly sounds like a few statements that Christ made in the Gospels to the Pharisees.
Netmil(name removed by moderator):

If God doesn’t care at all about how we worship, why is it right to be Catholic over any other Christian religion?

Again, reading her post, she does not say anything in it about God not caring at all how we worship. She is simply speaking to an issue where there is no specific prescribed posture beyond standing, and it is her opinion that hand holding or not hand holding is not significant. In that, she has Archbishop Chaput on her side. But stretching her statement to read that she said that God doesn’t care at all is going beyond the text and its plain meaning.
Netmil(name removed by moderator):

And why do you think that those who want to concentrate on Him during His words are any less concerned with visiting the sick or feeding the hungry as He directed?

Again, I read her quote, and I don’t find anything in it that says that she believes, thinks, or even implies that people who are upset with hand holding don’t visit the sick, etc. I read it to say, in other words, that there are seriously important issues of faith, and they are on the level of visiting the sick; if we pay attention to those only, the minor issues will pretty much sort themselves out.
Netmil(name removed by moderator):

God may have a sense of humor, but He may also be like a good father who pays for a child to go off to college. The child gets into the community there and forgets to call home. It doesn’t mean that the father thinks it’s funny. Nor that he is happy with the situation, just accepting.
If Jesus himself were standing on that altar, would you be looking to hold someone’s hand? Who knows, maybe you would, but I would be on my face knowing I am unworthy to meet His glance. He IS there. We all need to realize that.

After re-reading her post for the third time, I think she does get that.

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

I don’t think that she said anything about consentrating on community over God; in re-reading her statement, I think what she was saying was that our attitude towards God and one another perhaps take precedence over a strict interpretation and imposition of a rule that is not a moral rule. In that, she certainly sounds like a few statements that Christ made in the Gospels to the Pharisees.
Again, reading her post, she does not say anything in it about God not caring at all how we worship. She is simply speaking to an issue where there is no specific prescribed posture beyond standing, and it is her opinion that hand holding or not hand holding is not significant. In that, she has Archbishop Chaput on her side. But stretching her statement to read that she said that God doesn’t care at all is going beyond the text and its plain meaning.

Again, I read her quote, and I don’t find anything in it that says that she believes, thinks, or even implies that people who are upset with hand holding don’t visit the sick, etc. I read it to say, in other words, that there are seriously important issues of faith, and they are on the level of visiting the sick; if we pay attention to those only, the minor issues will pretty much sort themselves out.
After re-reading her post for the third time, I think she does get that.

Well, you read it all differently than I. I could repost an answer to all of your interpertations but, until she comes in and answers the questions, I stand by my post. Otherwise either of us could be right.

 

[Mom_of_5]

O.K., I’m back. Let me explain it this way: I like to kneel beside my kitchen chair and pray the rosary. When I was a child, our entire family did this every evening during May and the first Friday of every month. My husband, on the other hand, is a recent convert, from LDS. He does not like to kneel to pray. He prefers to sit in his chair, I kneel beside my chair and we pray. Now, if I told him that God would prefer he kneel with me or if he said that I should sit in his cushy chair with him, because God would prefer that, who would be right? Am I holier? Is he holier? I think it is a matter of preference. I put myself in the prayer mode one way, he the other.

The same goes for how we pray in church. My son is a non-hand-holder. When I am with him at church, I do not take his hand, I respect his wish to simply fold his hands. My husband is a hand-holder. I am a hugger at the sign of peace with my hubby and family, not the “general public”. I often nod my head and smile and do not intrude my hand to “shake hands” . It is important to “read” the person next to you. You can tell if they are hand-shakers or not. Every once in a while, I get a nice hug from someone I have never met.

We need to worry about more important things than whether we stand, sit, shake hands, orans, kneel,and all the rest. I am not suggesting that you don’t, just that I think God would prefer that I worry about my disabled sister and her care, as those like her, over whether or not to hand hands or “orans”. We take her to church. She is usually very good, but there are times when I make several trips to the ladies room with her mainly because she is bored. She takes money out of the basket rather than put it in when she has a chance and steals the pencils in the vestibule. ( Of course we make her put the money and the pencils back, but from time to time she gets away with a phamplet or two.).

The point I am making is there is so much more to life than extreme piety and I am firm in my belief that God sides with me. He is a truly kind, loving God who is trying to tell us the importance in the world, not the superficial. I am the lady who sits close to the back with my husband and sister-in-law who puts her head on my shoulder and drowns me in kisses all through mass.

If you think I am not pious enough, just let me know and I will work harder at it, that is, after I kneel by my kitchen chair and talk it over with my precious Jesus and his dear Mother Mary.

Love and Peace

 

[netmilsmom]

Mom of 5:

The point I am making is there is so much more to life than extreme piety and I am firm in my belief that God sides with me. He is a truly kind, loving God who is trying to tell us the importance in the world, not the superficial. I am the lady who sits close to the back with my husband and sister-in-law who puts her head on my shoulder and drowns me in kisses all through mass.

If you think I am not pious enough, just let me know and I will work harder at it, that is, after I kneel by my kitchen chair and talk it over with my precious Jesus and his dear Mother Mary.

Being pious enough, and elluding to those who focus on God and not handholding and community as being “extreme” pious is not the point.
The innovations such as handholding and Orans at the “Our Father” are taking over our parishes. From my own experience, when they start, they only continue. When people state that Pete in the Pew doesn’t like it, we are told to get used to it, or as you stated here…

I still think that God does not care, “orans”, “no orans”, “hand holding” or no “hand holding”. He has to be amused at these posts. What He really cares about is what is in our hearts, not whether or not we “worship correctly”.

You don’t know whether God is amused or not. You feel He is. You think He doesn’t care how we worship. The Lutherans worship differently, are they okay with God too?
I got the same sweep of the hand from our DRE and office staff at my old parish. To me, the lighten up statement is offensive.

Imagine your SIL in physical pain as she worshiped because of those innovations. Going along because everyone does it. The seniors that I did homevisits with would do the innovations because they didn’t want to look out of place or thought that this was how it was done now. Physical pain! Maybe you can’t pay attention because you are caring for your SIL but I did. It hurt my heart and when I suggested a traditional Holy Mass for the seniors, I was dismissed with a God doesn’t care, just like you said. They were firm in their belief as well, with no proof.

Maybe He does. Maybe He cares that His traditions are being overridden or people are uncomfortable NOT doing these innovations. Maybe He isn’t amused at all.

If we were given choices, if those poor seniors with arthritic shoulders were offered a Holy Mass where they could finger a rosary and read their Missals, it would be fine, but that is not done. The “Community” Catholics know that God is amused by people like us. We should just laugh about it.

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

Archbishop Chaput on her side…

Only if she is in Denver. If she is in St. Louis, for example, she is going against her Diocese…

archstl.org/worship/girm.html

The opinion of one Archbishop does not hold across the country. If you are in Denver this is for you, otherwise, one must see what your Diocese says.

 

[ncjohn]

I truly admire your “big picture” focus Mom of 5 and OTM. We are not talking about “right and wrong” issues here. We are talking about preferences and ways that we personally experience God the clearest. Over all these years the Church has declined to take a position on this, which says to me that they realize it really isn’t important and communities–along with the individuals in them who can make their own choices about participating–should decide whether the Spirit is calling them to this.

God made us different for very good reasons, as Paul describes the Body of Christ. Some preach, some prophesy, some speak in or interpret tongues. We have different gifts and “hear” God in different ways. Just as some people learn visually while others learn orally or tactilly; just as some people are introverts and prefer to be left alone while others are extroverts and must be around and in contact with other people; just as some express themselves orally while others communicate best through writing, or music, or dance, or art, or poetry, or any number of other ways; just as some pray silently while others feel a need to jump for joy in thanksgiving to God. Would we rightly be able to go into a Chrarismatic mass and tell people sit quietly in the pews and stop waving their hands?

We are the BODY of CHRIST! We need to stop imputing evil motives, much less evil outcomes, to people just because God speaks to them differently. We are creating division left and right when Jesus was clearly calling us to unity. In this “straining at gnats” we are picking at the splinter in our brother’s eye in judgment, directly in contradiction to one of the central gospel themes. We need to show some respect for each other and focus more on Jesus on the altar, and the Jesus in each of us!

Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.
John

 

[Mom_of_5]

John, thank you. And to the post that asked if God is peased with the way Lutheran’s worship, I say most likely “YES”!! If they worship God with all their heart and soul and truly believe that they are doing right. My aunts mother (non-Catholic)died in childbirth many years ago. She (my aunt) was raised Catholic. When she went to be married, she told the priest about her dear mother dying during childbirth and that she was non-Catholic. (Lutheran) The priest at once told my aunt that her mother would not go to heaven because she was not Catholic. Needless to say, my aunt left the church and raised her children another religion.(Lutheran) As she said, “if my dear mom who died giving birth to me cannot enter heaven, then I wish to be with her.” (She truly believed her young mom had a seat in heaven right next to Jesus) Yes, we believe our church is the TRUE church, but I think the priest who sent my dear aunt out of the church and all the other holier than thou’s do more damage to our church and perhaps our souls than any non-Catholic religion that truly believes in their teachings.

Love and peace

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

I truly admire your “big picture” focus Mom of 5 and OTM. We are not talking about “right and wrong” issues here. We are talking about preferences and ways that we personally experience God the clearest. Over all these years the Church has declined to take a position on this, which says to me that they realize it really isn’t important and communities–along with the individuals in them who can make their own choices about participating–should decide whether the Spirit is calling them to this.

I’m sorry John but you are mistaken. If you believe that the Vatican is the last word on what should be done in the church, they have given us guidelines on liturgical abuses that the Liturgical Committees, some Pastors, some Bishops and many DRE’s have chosen to ignore. The Vatican has given rulings that have been overruled by a few Bishops. If you are in one of those Diocese, the Bishop is who you should follow. However, to say that the Vatican has declined to take a position on many of these abuses that have become “norms” is incorrect.

 

[netmilsmom]

Mom of 5:

And to the post that asked if God is peased with the way Lutheran’s worship, I say most likely “YES”!! If they worship God with all their heart and soul and truly believe that they are doing right. My aunts mother (non-Catholic)died in childbirth many years ago. She (my aunt) was raised Catholic. When she went to be married, she told the priest about her dear mother dying during childbirth and that she was non-Catholic. (Lutheran) The priest at once told my aunt that her mother would not go to heaven because she was not Catholic. Needless to say, my aunt left the church and raised her children another religion.(Lutheran) As she said, “if my dear mom who died giving birth to me cannot enter heaven, then I wish to be with her.” (She truly believed her young mom had a seat in heaven right next to Jesus) Yes, we believe our church is the TRUE church, but I think the priest who sent my dear aunt out of the church and all the other holier than thou’s do more damage to our church and perhaps our souls than any non-Catholic religion that truly believes in their teachings.

The priest was wrong. That is simple. The priest was not being holier than thou, he was stating what he was taught to say at the time, if this was many years ago. B16 has clairified this.
There were many things stated to the Jews by Catholics. They were wrong as well, proven by JPII.

Why do you believe that our church is the true church? Why would anyone convert to our religion if all are the same?

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I’m sorry John but you are mistaken. If you believe that the Vatican is the last word on what should be done in the church, they have given us guidelines on liturgical abuses that the Liturgical Committees, some Pastors, some Bishops and many DRE’s have chosen to ignore. The Vatican has given rulings that have been overruled by a few Bishops. If you are in one of those Diocese, the Bishop is who you should follow. However, to say that the Vatican has declined to take a position on many of these abuses that have become “norms” is incorrect.

Excuse me, but I’m mistaken about what exactly? To the best of my knowledge, the Vatican has taken no position on this issue. The Conference of Catholic Bishops has taken no position on this issue. Individual bishops have taken positions in both directions within their jurisdictions (ours has not taken one at all) as have individual priests and lay people. With all due respect, there is no basis for declaring it a liturgical abuse.

You might want to do some examination of conscience to see why it is that this upsets you so much? There is no clear ruling against it, so it can’t be because people are breaking any rules. There is nothing objectively wrong with people holding hands, so it doesn’t seem like it can be that. Why does seeing people do something that they feel brings them closer to God and to each other bother you, especially since no one is forcing you to participate?

I have no problem with you or anyone else choosing not to participate, and would never “look down on” someone for that choice, but the feeling I get of being part of the Body of Christ at that time and during the Sign of Peace is tremendous and I really don’t want that taken away from me. To me, the “me and Jesus” rather than “us and Jesus” attitude takes away from the Body of Christ and the “communion” that we’re at mass for.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, or that I’m right. I’m saying that we need to respect each other’s ways of communing with God and each other.

Peace,
John

 

[alterserver_07]

Here in my part of the country, we have problems with both, I don’t like them, but I don’t do either of them. One parish will have holding hands and the other will have orans. It bothers me a little bit.

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

Excuse me, but I’m mistaken about what exactly? To the best of my knowledge, the Vatican has taken no position on this issue.

Let’s start here regarding the Orans position…

"The Ceremonial of Bishops notes: “Customarily in the Church a bishop or presbyter addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched” (CB 104).

Book of Blessings, “A minister who is a priest or deacon says the prayer of blessing with hands outstretched; a lay minister says the prayer with hands joined” (BB 1999). Over and over again, the rubrics direct clergy to pray with hands outstretched and laity with hands joined.

Fortunately, the recent Instruction on Collaboration (Nov. 13, 1997) drew the line on this issue and specifically mandated that “Neither may . . . non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the . . . priest celebrant” (ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2)."

The Orans position is for the priest in the liturgy per the Vatican. The Orans at any other time is a personal choice. The US Bishops as a group did not address this because there is enough documentation on it. Individual Bishops i.e. Denver, Cleveland, L.A. have specifically overridden these documents. However, because something is not mentioned in the GIRM, does not mean that it is not documented somewhere else.
Here is a list of some of the Vatican documents you might be interested in.
Acronym
Document Name (Latin)
Common Name
**Date Issued

** CIC/83
Codex Iuris Canonici
Code of Canon Law
1983

ICP
Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priest
1997

ID
Inaestimabile Donum
1980

GIRM
General Instruction to the Roman Missal
2002

AGI
Appendix to the General Instruction for Dioceses in the United States
1970???

PS
Paschales Solemnitatis
On the Preparation and Celebration of the Easter Feasts
1988

DC
Dominae Cenae
On the Mystery and Worship of the Eucharist
1980

MS
Misericordiam Suam
Introduction to the New Order of Penance
1974

HLS
“This Holy and Living Sacrifice: Directory for the Celebration and Reception of Communion under Both Kinds”
Issued by US Bishops and approved by Holy See
1984

 

[netmilsmom]

And as for holding hands at the Our Father, think about it if you are in the St. Louis Diocese…

Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged?

BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989

No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.

That is taken from here…
archstl.org/worship/girm.html

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Let’s start here regarding the Orans position…

To the best of my knowledge, I have nowhere addressed the Orans position in any of my posts. I have not personally run into it nor do I have a specific opinion about it one way or the other, although I don’t think I would be bothered particularly if I saw someone doing it.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

And as for holding hands at the Our Father, think about it if you are in the St. Louis Diocese…

I am not in that diocese and our diocese has not taken a position (thankfully).

I am still curious though what it is about this that so offends you that you are willing to sow such division over it.

Peace be with you,
John

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

To the best of my knowledge, I have nowhere addressed the Orans position in any of my posts. I have not personally run into it nor do I have a specific opinion about it one way or the other, although I don’t think I would be bothered particularly if I saw someone doing it.

The thread is Orans vs. Handholding. I was covering both.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

The thread is Orans vs. Handholding. I was covering both.

Maybe the thread is, but the statement was that I was mistaken and I did not address that issue at all. That is why I asked what I was mistaken about.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

I am not in that diocese and our diocese has not taken a position (thankfully).

I am still curious though what it is about this that so offends you that you are willing to sow such division over it.

Peace be with you,
John

Franklin, NC is in the Charlotte Diocese correct?
This was taken from the Diocese website explaining the GIRM relating to the Liturgical Norms in the Charlotte Diocese…

Communion
Holding Hands during the Our Father* is not found** in the Order of the Mass.
*
Bishop Jugis is pretty concise.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Franklin, NC is in the Charlotte Diocese correct?
This was taken from the Diocese website explaining the GIRM relating to the Liturgical Norms in the Charlotte Diocese…

Communion
Holding Hands during the Our Father* is not found*** in the Order of the Mass.

Bishop Jugis is pretty concise.

That is correct as to what he has said, and that is no position at all. It just acknowledges that nothing exists. There is no statement that it is unacceptable. He certainly made clear things that are unacceptable in his message.

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

That is correct as to what he has said, and that is no position at all. It just acknowledges that nothing exists. There is no statement that it is unacceptable. He certainly made clear things that are unacceptable in his message.

Oh John. You do understand that according to the Rubics nothing can be added to the liturgy, right?

Read this…

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/LTRGYRED.TXT

JPII made it very clear that nothing is to be added, therefore when your Bishop states that something is not found in the Order of the Mass, it is not allowed to be added…