Orans vs. Handholding

[netmilsmom]

fix:

Have you ever noticed the counters on these threads that record how many views there are? I assume they are accurate. I have noticed that any thread that is about hand holding, kneeling, or homosexuality has many more hits than other topics.

What does this say?

People are being given poor Cathechism and they are searching the forums for the truth.
Pitifully, we have people here who spout what they feel over what is law. I fear they are also the DREs and Liturgical Commitees.

Or some Bishops…

 

[fix]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

People are being given poor Cathechism and they are searching the forums for the truth.
Pitifully, we have people here who spout what they feel over what is law. I fear they are also the DREs and Liturgical Commitees.

Or some Bishops…

Seems like a good answer to me.

 

[Mot_Juste]

Wow, this thread has certainly gone on longer than I anticipated, but I think I may be seeing a glimmer of a consensus among the 4 people who are still actively posting.

Everyone agrees that Rome has not forbidden handholding.

Everyone agrees that Rome has not mandated handholding.

Everyone agrees that it is forbidden for anyone to mandate handholding without 2/3 vote of a Bishop’s conference and go-ahead from Rome.

Everyone agrees that it is legal for a Bishop to forbid handholding in his diocese, and that members of that diocese should obey.

Lastly, I think everyone agrees that it is legal for a Bishop to say to his diocese what Chaput said, hold hands or don’t, as you prefer, but don’t impose on your neighbor.

Fix, you’ve said that in your parish you are told to join hands. I believe we’ve established that that is a violation of the rules.

In my parish, and in all of the other nearby parishes that I have attended, hand holding is the custom and 90% or more of the people do it. After reading this forum and seeing the poll results, I wonder how many people in the pews are secretly seething every time the we’re asked to “pray with confidence to the Father in the words our Saviour gave us.”

On any given Sunday, there’s little I can do to make my neighbor feel more welcome if he’s offended that people are holding hands. Going back to my original post, though, I still maintain that the most charitable thing I can do as an individual attending a “hand-holding” parish, is start with the orans position and let the people on either side of me grab my hand or not. It still seems like the best compromise between being open to the person on my right who wants to hold hands and not imposing on the person on my left who doesn’t.

–Bill

 

[netmilsmom]

Mot Juste:

Everyone agrees that Rome has not forbidden handholding.

–Bill

No, Rome has stated that NOTHING is to be added to the Liturgy.
If I never told my seven year old that shaving our cat with Daddy’s electric shaver was not allowed, would it make it alright when she did it?

 

[Mot_Juste]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

When the Vatican rules, the Bishop cannot over rule. When the Vatican says nothing, the Bishops rule.

Mot Juste:

Everyone agrees that Rome has not forbidden handholding.

Everyone agrees that Rome has not mandated handholding.

Everyone agrees that it is forbidden for anyone to mandate handholding without 2/3 vote of a Bishop’s conference and go-ahead from Rome.

Everyone agrees that it is legal for a Bishop to forbid handholding in his diocese, and that members of that diocese should obey.

Lastly, I think everyone agrees that it is legal for a Bishop to say to his diocese what Chaput said, hold hands or don’t, as you prefer, but don’t impose on your neighbor.

netmil(name removed by moderator):

No, Rome has stated that NOTHING is to be added to the Liturgy.

I would say that your first statement, quoted above, is in agreement with at least the first four of my “everyone agrees” assertions. Did I need to restate it that “Everyone agrees that Rome has not explicitly forbidden handholding?” To me it’s redundant.

–Bill

 

[netmilsmom]

Mot Juste:

I would say that your first statement, quoted above, is in agreement with at least the first four of my “everyone agrees” assertions. Did I need to restate it that “Everyone agrees that Rome has not explicitly forbidden handholding?” To me it’s redundant.

–Bill

I really did get your point however, silence on the issue speaks volumes.
Somehow I don’t remember that juggling issue being handled by the Vatican either.
As with many other issues, this issue may be handled in another document coming from the Vatican that certain Bishops choose to ignore. That’s been known to happen under the reign of JPII.

I think that B16 will be much more of a disciplinarian.

 

[otm]

fix:

From a post above:

I don’t disagree with your post; what I said was not said as the only way that something could be changed. That, however, is not the only way that a change could be made.

 

[otm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

No, Rome has stated that NOTHING is to be added to the Liturgy.
If I never told my seven year old that shaving our cat with Daddy’s electric shaver was not allowed, would it make it alright when she did it?

You seem to want it both ways: Rome says nothing can be added, and the bishops have the right to add it on their own.

 

[otm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I really did get your point however, silence on the issue speaks volumes.
Somehow I don’t remember that juggling issue being handled by the Vatican either.
As with many other issues, this issue may be handled in another document coming from the Vatican that certain Bishops choose to ignore. That’s been known to happen under the reign of JPII.

I think that B16 will be much more of a disciplinarian.

Rome probably did not handle the “juggling” issue for the simple reason that there is no “juggling” issue to handle. Setting up strawmen arguements does not make any points.

I think we all agree that hand holding makes for poor liturgy.

 

[Ricardus]

My only real objection to the orans posture is that I’ve noticed that most people who do this keep their arms extended beyond the Our Father and only release the posture after the “For the kingdom, the power, and the glory…” is finished. The implication here is that somehow the Our Father is not finished or complete until those words are said, which of course, is a Protestant error.

That’s my main objection. As a side note, I’ve also noticed on a couple of occasions a person praying in the orans posture during the Canon, as if they are silently co-consecrating with the priest! But thankfully, I haven’t seen this more than a couple of times.

Hand-holding? Not for me, personally, and thankfully not the norm at my parish. While visiting another parish once, someone did extend their hand to me, and I just politely smiled and slowly shook my head as if to say, “No, I don’t think so…”

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

Rome probably did not handle the “juggling” issue for the simple reason that there is no “juggling” issue to handle. Setting up strawmen arguements does not make any points.

I think we all agree that hand holding makes for poor liturgy.

I would surely bet that someone somewhere has juggled at mass. I wouldn’t bet my first born on it, but…

How about a nice clown mass?

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

You seem to want it both ways: Rome says nothing can be added, and the bishops have the right to add it on their own.

Sorry friend if you misunderstood me, but not that the Bishops have the RIGHT to add anything, just that under the last Pope, no one called them on it.
We must obey our Bishops. We should not question, God will sort it out.
I do not tell anyone to do or not to do an innovation without checking with their Diocese.

 

[fix]

otm:

I don’t disagree with your post; what I said was not said as the only way that something could be changed. That, however, is not the only way that a change could be made.

Are you intending to mean the idea that an illicit novelty becomes a “custom” after so many years and then it becomes part of the law or norm?

 

[fix]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Sorry friend if you misunderstood me, but not that the Bishops have the RIGHT to add anything, just that under the last Pope, no one called them on it.
We must obey our Bishops. We should not question, God will sort it out.
I do not tell anyone to do or not to do an innovation without checking with their Diocese.

I do not see anywhere that bishops have the authority to impose hand holding on the faithful.

 

[netmilsmom]

fix:

I do not see anywhere that bishops have the authority to impose hand holding on the faithful.

That’s the whole idea. They don’t. But some have been getting away with encouraging it for a while. They give the “If you don’t want to you don’t have to.” deal and no one stops them.

I just stating that one should see what one’s own Diocese is saying. From what I am reading, the ones that are NOT encouraging this innovation are few and far between.

 

[fix]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

That’s the whole idea. They don’t. But some have been getting away with encouraging it for a while. They give the “If you don’t want to you don’t have to.” deal and no one stops them.

I just stating that one should see what one’s own Diocese is saying. From what I am reading, the ones that are NOT encouraging this innovation are few and far between.

The posture of the people during prayer at Mass is not one of the items in the GIRM list that bishop may change on his own authority (see GIRM 387). Thus it is not legitimate for a bishop to require people to assume the orans posture during the Our Father.

The GIRM does say that a bishop has the “responsibility above all for fostering the spirit of the Sacred Liturgy in the priests, deacons, and faithful”. He has the authority to see that practices in his diocese conform to the norms liturgical law, and, mindful of this, a bishop is to “regulate” these things:

1. “the discipline of concelebration”;
2. “the establishing of norms regarding the function of serving the priest at the altar”;
3. “the distribution of Holy Communion under both kinds”;
4. “the construction and ordering of churches”.

The posture of the people at prayer is not on this list.

adoremus.org/1103OransPosture.html

By this standard we may conclude hand holding may not be required either.

 

[netmilsmom]

fix:

adoremus.org/1103OransPosture.html

By this standard we may conclude hand holding may not be required either.

Oh no, I think I am not stating myself correctly. A few, and I mean very few Bishops are encouraging (not demanding) handholding at the Our Father.
I think I stated it wrong in the post above. From my research, most are discouraging the innovation and those that are not always put the disclaimer that people don’t have to do it, with a nice frosting of “Christ wants you to love your neighbor so touchie-feelie is a great idea.”
I haven’t found anyone requiring it.
All I’m saying is that if one feels the need to hold hands, check with your Diocese. You may find out that you are disobeying the Bishop by doing so.
Read back, one of the posters in Bishop Jurgis’ Diocese is in flat out denial that he ruled against the handholding innovation.