Ordaining Female Catholic Priests

[SecretGarden]

Dear friends,
This is the final section. Please note that I am coming in peace. I took a few days to write and draft these points. Many people made various comments to my original post and to save time, I wanted to comment on them as something general without attacking anyone’s point of view. If anything thinks I have been harsh please accept my apology. Since this is a public forum, we have the right to be honest and share our ideas in a civil God following manner. Below are my last two points.

Peace,
SG

Did you really not know that the Catholic Church no way, no how supports ordination of women before you entered the Church, or did you stay quiet about it so you could become Catholic?
That is an attack on my character because you do not know my story. The fact that I support women ordination should not be attacked. My opinions should at least be respected because I am not alone with this idea. I admit I am new, plus I grew up with two amazing women ministers so my point of view is more broad than those who grew up inside the church. I am allowed to have my opinions. That is my right! For the record, my spiritual directors were aware of my struggles, it was through deep intense discerning that I became Catholic and no one has the right to question it’s authenticy.
**
There are many obvious differences between the sexes. To assume that these differences might not as a rule make men better priests is without warrant. The denominations that have allowed women pastors have not experienced great growth as a result of this supposedly liberating decision. In fact they are all in decline.**

Provide me with examples. I ask because its been my experience that gender does not dictate if a church is growing or dying. There are some Catholic and Pentecostal churches (in Quebec Pentecostal women senior pastors are scarce ) congregations go both ways: some are growing while others are dying. There are other churches who have women ministers which are maintaining and/or whose congregation is also growing. Other factors dictate whether a church is growing include whether or not the church has a welcoming attitude, good location, open to the holy spirit, approachable minister, caring community, programs that encourage church involvement and a strong prayerful structure. I’m sorry gender doesn’t determine a church’s success. If it did, the churches who had only male ministers would be growing and the women’s churches would be dying and closing its doors.

 

[Lapey]

I grew up inside the Protestant church that had not only one woman minister but two therefore telling me that a woman is not qualified to be a priest is hogwash. Aside for listening to confession and the eurcharist, the job is the same across all denominations because as a minister, you are visiting the sick, preaching at least every sunday, guiding people individually in their faith, counselling, encouraging your congergation to follow Christ and more. This follows what women were created by God. Think about it, historically, they were teachers, nurses and raising a house full of children, that pretty much gives us the qualifications to do everything that a priest does. Seriously if religious sisters are allowed to do everything from spend their entire day praying to working in the streets helping the poor, we can certainly hear confession, give absolution, guide a congergation to God and more.

I thought this thread was done. There is a big difference between converting to Catholicism and conversion. You may take this as a personal attack, I pray you don’t. One must learn to follow what has been passed on, conform to Mother Church’s teachings. We cannot go out and proclaim what we want to be doctrine to in fact be doctrine.

Jesus ordained the priesthood; He did so with prejudice to ordain men. This priesthood is the priesthood of Himself, men are ordained to participate in that same priesthood. Women may very well be qualified to do many ministries as good or in some cases better; however there is one ministry that no woman can participate in, the priesthood, they are NOT MEN! The Church has listened in the beginning, has kept this as a doctrine, has no authority to change what Jesus instituted.

Now, we as Catholics must learn to abide by the Church’s teachings, even the ones we disagree with.

As a discussion me and one of the other posters on this thread have argued about before, look in the section of the CCC where it talks about forming the conscience. We are bound to follow our conscience, but first and foremost we are bound to properly form said conscience first.

PS. I’ve read here on this thread a couple of times about women being deacons, priests and even bishops for the first 1200 years. Please provide some historical data to support this, and not the old “deaconess” message. There isn’t even definitive proof of there being validly ordained deaconesses, mush less priestesses or bishopettes.

 

[KathleenGee]

SecretGarden…

Good posts, and I am glad you are in the Catholic Church…and for very solid reasons.

I would recommend people get hold of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger’s Report…an ope interview he had over 10 years ago in book form…and he gives insights into the role of gender and the English speaking churches where women ordination has been a highly vocal issue. It is re-emerging in Austria.

Another would be to read about what the Soviet Communist government did to marriage and to women. They were the first in modern times where men could divorce their wives at will, that the state was to raise the children, and women forced to work out of the home.

 

[sedonaman]

The only reason this is an issue is that it is one of the current des causes célèbres of modern American liberals who labor tirelessly to eliminate any and all perceived inequality under the guise that it is “unfair”. What they hide, of course, is that such radical change would destroy the Church, which is their goal all along.
“The singular originality of the Church and of the priestly ministry within the Church requires a precise clarity of criteria. Concretely, one must never lose sight of the fact that the Church does not find the source of her faith and her constitutive structure in the principles of the social order of any historical period.”[1]

• Joseph Card. Ratzinger
  Prefect

[Emphasis added]

[1] Translation: Church doctrine is not determined by liberal American jet-set philosophy of the day.

 

[sedonaman]

I grew up inside the Protestant church that had not only one woman minister but two therefore telling me that a woman is not qualified to be a priest is hogwash. Aside for listening to confession and the eurcharist, the job is the same across all denominations because as a minister, you are visiting the sick, preaching at least every sunday, guiding people individually in their faith, counselling, encouraging your congergation to follow Christ and more. This follows what women were created by God. Think about it, historically, they were teachers, nurses and raising a house full of children, that pretty much gives us the qualifications to do everything that a priest does. Seriously if religious sisters are allowed to do everything from spend their entire day praying to working in the streets helping the poor, we can certainly hear confession, give absolution, guide a congergation to God and more.

If women priests are so important to you, why did you leave your Protestant church? Just asking.

 

[Corki]

No offense but you got shortchanged in RCIA if this is what you believe about the priesthood. The “job” of a Catholic priest has very little resemblence to that of a Protestant minister. Many of the job duties you describe (you are visiting the sick, preaching outside of Mass, guiding people individually in their faith, counselling, encouraging your fellow Christians to follow Christ and more) can and are done by women in the Church. But the priesthood is different.
I’m being devil’s advocate: explain how the priesthood is different. I know what priests also do the duties that I mentioned. Explain. How is a priest different from a protestant minister?

For future reference, had you learned to use the multiquote feature, it would be easier for people to answer your questions.

Here’s the original post to which I responded.

I grew up inside the Protestant church that had not only one woman minister but two therefore telling me that a woman is not qualified to be a priest is hogwash. Aside for listening to confession and the eurcharist, the job is the same across all denominations because as a minister, you are visiting the sick, preaching at least every sunday, guiding people individually in their faith, counselling, encouraging your congergation to follow Christ and more. This follows what women were created by God. Think about it, historically, they were teachers, nurses and raising a house full of children, that pretty much gives us the qualifications to do everything that a priest does. Seriously if religious sisters are allowed to do everything from spend their entire day praying to working in the streets helping the poor, we can certainly hear confession, give absolution, guide a congergation to God and more.

Aside for listening to confession and the eurcharist, the job is the same across all denominations

Let’s start here. The priest’s role is not to just “listen to confessions”, it’s to minister the Sacrament of Confession including imparting absolution in the name of Christ. Men and women can both listen to confessions. Abbesses do this all the time in convent settings. Many spiritual directors (male and female) listen to confessions. But they can’t give absolution or assurance that the sins are forgiven.

A priest confects the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. While a few denominations have a similar role for their ministers, most do not even attempt this.

The main role of a priest is to bring the Sacraments into the world. In addition to the two Sacraments you mention, Confirmation and Holy orders impart an indelible mark on the recipient, Baptism does the same and brings a person into first contact with the church (yes other denominations have this too), Last rites prepares the soul near death, sacramentally for a life with God in Heaven. These priestly duties are all very different from the duties of a non-Catholic minister.

In most non-Christian denominations the Sacraments are not even the main role of the minister. A minister’s main role is usually to preach and evangelize.

because as a minister, you are visiting the sick, preaching at least every sunday, guiding people individually in their faith, counselling, encouraging your congergation to follow Christ and more

Yet some priests don’t do any of those things. Those are all things that many, even most, priests do but they are not essential functions of a priest.

In terms of a “job description” those would be considered non-essential to the role of a priest.

Because of that, they are all things that lay people, men and women can do. There are lay ministries for visiting the sick, giving spiritual direction, evangelization and even preaching and teaching that are for men and women to pursue. The only restriction on preaching for a woman (or lay man) is that it isn’t permitted in place of a homily at Mass. But women (and lay men) preach retreats, missions and in non-Mass settings all the time and very capably.

Think about it, historically, they were teachers, nurses and raising a house full of children, that pretty much gives us the qualifications to do everything that a priest does.

While there are certainly priests who teach, nurse and care for children, those are not the qualifications for priesthood.

Seriously if religious sisters are allowed to do everything from spend their entire day praying to working in the streets helping the poor, we can certainly hear confession, give absolution, guide a congergation to God and more.

How does anything in the first part of this sentence relate to anything in the second half? Praying all day and helping the poor are not requirments or abilities that have anything to do with administering the Sacraments. As for guiding a congregation, that’s the role of a pastor - it’s not something even all priests are called to do.

And although it’s not on your list, pastors also run a parish administratively. They hire/fire, schedule, budget and run the parish’s physical operations. In most denominations, the pastor is an employee of the church. This is another way being a priest is different. Even for priests who are not pastors, they are not employees of the parish. On the other hand, all of those administrative duties can be done by quaified lay people (men or women) in the absence of a pastor or if delegated by the pastor.

All this being said, my comment about your understanding of the priesthood is due to the reduction, on your part, of the priesthood to a list of roles and job duties. The priest hood is not a job or a career. It is a submission to a permanent change of being. Even if a woman was quite capable in terms of the “job duties” that doesn’t mean that she is called to submit to the ontological change that ordination effects.

 

[pismopal]

Of all the legions of problems that the Church …and the world, faces…why does this miniscule…silly issue keep rearing it’s head? The problem is that some…I do not characterize…have come to believe that if one whines long enough and loudly enough…you can get your way. Why not believe this?..look around…most of the time it works. But people it is a DONE DEAL. Please go fight another battle…go to French Foreign Legion Headquarters and try pressuring them to admit women. At least there is a billion to one that you might be successful. Sheesh:shrug:

 

[TrueLight]

Error comes into the Church in three stages: First error asks for toleration, it will keep its opinion private and not disturb the doctrines of the Church. After awhile, error says that it is equal with Truth and both views should be tolerated. Again after awhile error say that it is the majority view and that Truth will have to leave because Truth is a disturber of the peace of the Church.

Very true and things we should watch out for?

 

[followingtheway]

Why should this matter though? We have nuns! The priesthood is like boy scouts it’s not discrimination and why are they picking on the Catholic Church when certain Jewish traditions never ordained women?

And besides how can anyone call the Church sexist? WE HAVE PICTURES OF MARY EVERYWHERE.

 

[TrueLight]

Dear friends,
This is the final section. Please note that I am coming in peace. I took a few days to write and draft these points. Many people made various comments to my original post and to save time, I wanted to comment on them as something general without attacking anyone’s point of view. If anything thinks I have been harsh please accept my apology. Since this is a public forum, we have the right to be honest and share our ideas in a civil God following manner. Below are my last two points.

Peace,
SG

I apologize for being so harsh. I guess I was horrified that you converted without believing in this very basic tenet.

For the record, the church I attended for the past 7 years until about 5 months ago, had an awesome woman pastor who left recently and now has a very nice, gay woman pastor.

So I am used to seeing women ministers. The churches of my youth, however were staunchly against it.

Nevertheless, I realize that the Church says no way, no how, will women be ordained and I could not in good conscience convert if I didn’t believe that.

 

[Nicea325]

Why should this matter though? We have nuns! The priesthood is like boy scouts it’s not discrimination and why are they picking on the Catholic Church when certain Jewish traditions never ordained women?

And besides how can anyone call the Church sexist? WE HAVE PICTURES OF MARY EVERYWHERE.

More important,if the CC is experiencing a hard time “recruiting” young women to live religious lives as nuns,how they expect to get women to be priests? If the CC cannot get women to nuns,yet now many cry for the priesthood? Give me a break!

 

[TrueLight]

More important,if the CC is experiencing a hard time “recruiting” young women to live religious lives as nuns,how they expect to get women to be priests? If the CC cannot get women to nuns,yet now many cry for the priesthood? Give me a break!

A nun and priest are not the same though. The priest is more of a leadership position. So if that’s what they want, that’s what they will go for.

 

[Miriam1947]

ask.com/wiki/In_persona_Christi

In persona Christi is a Latin phrase meaning “in the person of Christ,” an important concept in Roman Catholicism and, in varying degrees, to other Christian traditions. An extended term, In persona Christi capitis, “in the person of Christ the head,” was introduced in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Roman Catholic Understanding

In Roman Catholicism, the priest acts in the person of Christ in pronouncing the words that comprise part of a sacramental rite. For example, in the Mass, the Words of Institution, by which the bread becomes the Body of Christ and the wine becomes the Precious Blood. The priest and bishop act in the person of Christ the head in their leadership of the Church.

Since the priest is standing in for Christ, how on earth does a woman do that? She can’t.

Thus, the sacraments are efficacious — that is, they give the grace they signify — because the true minister is always Christ.

 

[Lapey]

ask.com/wiki/In_persona_Christi

In persona Christi is a Latin phrase meaning “in the person of Christ,” an important concept in Roman Catholicism and, in varying degrees, to other Christian traditions. An extended term, In persona Christi capitis, “in the person of Christ the head,” was introduced in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Roman Catholic Understanding

In Roman Catholicism, the priest acts in the person of Christ in pronouncing the words that comprise part of a sacramental rite. For example, in the Mass, the Words of Institution, by which the bread becomes the Body of Christ and the wine becomes the Precious Blood. The priest and bishop act in the person of Christ the head in their leadership of the Church.

Since the priest is standing in for Christ, how on earth does a woman do that? She can’t.

Thus, the sacraments are efficacious — that is, they give the grace they signify — because the true minister is always Christ.

Excellant post…thanks!

 

[Captain_America]

This seems to me to be such a goofy issue. Growing up, I always thought nuns had the better job!

Whenever I hear of “female priests” I always think of the huge amount of sheer pain that that woman must have gone through, to go through the tortured thinking that such a thing is a path to purse. There’s no anaesthetic for this kind of pain, and it’s sad to see.

I think more’s involved than the actual everyday tasks being done.

 

[Captain_America]

A clearly false issue is the idea that if the priesthood is opened to women, then the shortage of priests will end.

My father’s a leader in his Protestant church. They have a damn hard time finding female or male ministers, and they’re paying $70K a year.

The realistic numbers just aren’t there to support the claim that females can take up the slack. The chief problem is that those called to a vocation are stifling their ears.

 

[Lord_Timmsey]

Ah, this issue again. Once again, liberals are throwing around terms like “unfair”, “inequality”, and the other usual bilge.

An important concept to grasp for those of this mindset: God made man and woman to be different, to be complementary to each other. It’s a fundamental fact that is reflected in our very physiology. Thus, men and women are suited to different roles, because they are in fundamental ways different. The “equality” that liberals these days yearn for is to make all people uniformly the same in ability and opportunity, and they have been trying to apply this idea to the Catholic Church and its concept of the priesthood. They see a position that only men may fill, and that immediately speaks to them of inequality or discrimination, because by their lights, women can do everything that men can do equally well - an obvious untruth that goes both ways. They cannot grasp that the priesthood is a reflection of those complementary roles, just as a woman’s ability to be a mother is a reflection of those complementary roles that God in His goodness blessed us with. So, by their logic, because women should be able to be priests, I ought to be able to be a mother! I’m a man, but I want to be able to become pregnant and have babies, because it’s something that women can do that I can’t. It’s not FAIR. It’s UNEQUAL.

In both scenarios, you come to the same conclusion: it CANNOT happen. I’ve always considered that to be a simple thing to grasp, although obviously I have been proved wrong in this case. It’s hard to fathom, although that may just be me.

Christ instituted the priesthood when he appointed his apostles to accompany him and to spread the Good News after His death and Resurrection. He did not appoint women as apostles. People say that he did this simply because of the mores of the time, because that’s what society was like back then. I say, Hogwash. Jesus was an incredibly anti-establishment man. He walked and worked on the Sabbath. He spoke with women alone (scandalous!). He claimed to be the Son of God, and better yet, to be a King. So appointing women as apostles would have been entirely in keeping with his habits; yet he didn’t. For a reason. Men have a specific place in His Church, and women do as well. It’s as simple as that.

In closing, I’ll just reiterate what various people on this thread have already done: quote Blessed John Paul II’s infallible judgement concerning this issue.
"Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

 

[Kelley_Green]

It will never happen.

The priesthood is about life itself. Men and women compliment each other. The Jewish tradition never had women priests. Christ did not institute women apostles. Each gender has its own genius and purpose.

What is bad is implying there is something defective in women so because of that we can’t be priests.

Funny you mention it. Women are taught to be defective males in a world view only men may exist. Where did that idea come from? Good thing there aren’t ordained women participating meaningfully in theological discussions to correct these bizarre interpretations. Estranging half the species as if we’re aliens animating psy-ops warfare tactics inflicted upon womankind must be maintained at all costs if it’s a religion of men worshiping themselves. Is that what Christ intended? Surely not.

The irrational over the top emotional reactions and the wild presumption womankind aspires for dominion over mankind betrays their own ill motives. If they truly wanted this issue put to rest they’re obliged to face God fully and quit hiding behind my skirt like cowards claiming it’s for my own protection. When every threat to my life, liberty, and sanity was delivered by christian men (small c) living out delusions of grandeur, it’s miraculous how productive & meaningful my life became handing them an eviction notice out of my relationship with God. I’m a much better Catholic without my hands tied behind my back apologizing to horse thieves for the crime of standing in my own shoes. Not Eva Braun’s shoes. My own.

It is a puzzle for me. I think Feminism should be left where it belongs.

I’m quite certain it is predators & false religious who should be left exactly where they belong.

How many more centuries ought to go by where your wife, sister, daughter, and mother bite their tongue and glue their eyes to the floor waiting on you to grow up?

Puzzle over what kind of man holds a mirror in the sky blocking the light of God convinced it’s God he is seeing.

Lesson learned: Never negotiate with terrorists no matter what uniform they wear. It will pain ears to consider, they’ll loathe me for saying it, but no matter the fancy dance deflections they devise to hide from truth, I am undeniably my fathers daughter speaking the only language he has ever been willing to learn.

REPENT SINNERS!!! Here’s your tough love back!!! I’m having none of that evil TYVM. Hot wiring the moral compass of womankind to suit yourselves leaves Adam deluding himself yet again. Wake up!

 

[Lapey]

deleted by Deacon Lapey:thumbsup:

 

[Corki]

REPENT SINNERS!!! Here’s your tough love back!!! I’m having none of that evil TYVM. Hot wiring the moral compass of womankind to suit yourselves leaves Adam deluding himself yet again. Wake up!

That’s quite a rant. I can’t tell which side of the issue you are on.

But what is TYVM?