Order of Melchisedek

[Nita]

My understanding from Hebrews 7:3 is that one of the key attributes of this particular priesthood, Melchizedek, is that it is without beginning or end, it is eternal, just as our Lord is. Is that how you all understand? Contrasted to the Aaronic priesthood, they kept dying as individuals and therefore were inferior.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Contrasted against the Aaronic priesthood, they kept dying as individuals and therefore were inferior to Melchizedek. Again, just focusing on this one attribute; I know there are more.

Hebrews 7:23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.

Does this make sense?.. please verify the context of these passages; if you read and understand as I do. Thanks.

IMO, there is one additional bit of info that should be included. The “priests” referred to in the Heb 7:23 verse you cite seem to be a reference to the high priests. This becomes obvious in the subsequent verses:
Heb 7:24-28 Consequently He is able…He always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, … He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, … Indeed, the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect for ever.

 

[Nita]

Actually; this is the whole point. If one of attributes of Jesus priesthood is eternallity and the opposing problem with the Aaronic priesthood is they kept dying as individuals. The Catholic priests keep dying don’t they? This is inferior to Jesus priesthood, not a type of “High” priesthood. No one can say unless through imagination or invention, that the Catholic priesthood is in the order of Melchezidek, it is unbiblical. This is but one of many reasons that no one in their right-biblical mind and follow such a priest. It also explains why Jesus told us to call no “spiritual teacher” Father. You all cannot be this blind and ignorant not see the problem can you? I don’t mean this personally; it is what Scripture teaches, but you have to apply common sense to it all.

The Catholic priesthood is true and biblical. Jesus is the high priest in the Catholic priesthood - there is no other high priest, nor will there ever be, because Our Lord now lives forever. He is the eternal high priest and the eternal sacrificial offering.

The true offering takes place in heaven. But Our Lord desired and instituted a way for us to participate in the heavenly liturgy/offering where He acts as high priest. He did this by ordaining visible, mortal men to act as his priests on earth. He took visible bread and wine which He miraculously changes into Himself – the only true and holy sacrificial offering. At Mass, when the priest prays (as a visible representative of Our Lord), that liturgy in our earthly sanctuary is united/joined to the heavenly liturgy.

I have not inserted all the Scripture references. If you want them, I would just suggest you read the Last Supper accounts with any cross references to Corinthians where Paul speaks of the Eucharist. And reread Hebrews again through the “glasses” of the above paragraph.

Nita

 

[Nita]

Just a thought that I’ve had as I read the Epistle to the Hebrews.

It seems to me that the book of Hebrews centers on the High Priest - not the priesthood in general. This is the only letter written specifically to the Jews. They had been used to having a visible, mortal man as their high priest - with offerings of visible blood to atone for their sins. (Recall it was only the high priest who could go into the Holy of Holies to offer the sacrificial blood for the atonement of sin). It was probably an adjustment to do without a visible high priest. And now the sacrificial offering visibly looks like bread and wine (like Melchizedek’s offering) and not sacrificed flesh and blood.

We’re just not “spirit” beings; we need the physical in order to experience and come to know things. Granted, there are times when God directly infuses knowledge - but that is rare.

 

[guanophore]

Melchizedek is typology, pointing to a type of Christ, but is inferior to Jesus as high priest. Similar to the brass pole with the serpent to which the Jews were to look upon to be saved from the poisonous snake bites.

Hebrews is trying to reach Jews to give up their Jewish traditions concerning the priesthood for the superior priesthood of Jesus. This is why the fact that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, is so important to the Jewish-Chrisitian mind. If Abraham was considered the Father of the nation and he gave tithes, than the one whom he paid tithes is superior. If Melchizedek is superior to Abraham, then Melchizedek is superior to Aaron, and since Melchizedek points or is a type of Christ, then Jesus priesthood is superior to the levitical priesthood; therefore the Jews should follow the true and living God through Jesus.

Actually; this is the whole point. If one of attributes of Jesus priesthood is eternallity and the opposing problem with the Aaronic priesthood is they kept dying as individuals. The Catholic priests keep dying don’t they? This is inferior to Jesus priesthood, not a type of “High” priesthood. No one can say unless through imagination or invention, that the Catholic priesthood is in the order of Melchezidek, it is unbiblical. This is but one of many reasons that no one in their right-biblical mind and follow such a priest. It also explains why Jesus told us to call no “spiritual teacher” Father. You all cannot be this blind and ignorant not see the problem can you? I don’t mean this personally; it is what Scripture teaches, but you have to apply common sense to it all.

No, those who are in Christ live forever!

The Catholic priesthood is completely derived from the high priesthood of Christ. That is why it is in the order of Melchizedek.

If you are so hardened against following a Catholic priest, what are you doing on CAF? Surely you know by now that we recieve the priest as a gift by God to the church!

You are misunderstanding the statements about calling spiritual leaders “father”. Priests are taken up into the fatherhood of God. Jesus and Paul both taught about not becoming factious. However, Paul referred to himself as father several times.

We don’t believe that “scripture teaches”, Non. Words and books cannot “teach”. Teaching is a role that requires rationality, discernment, and for Christians, authority. These are not qualities that belong to books, however Holy. When you say “scripture teaches” what we understand that to mean is your own private interpretation.

We receive the teachings from the Apostles, that is how we know that this way of looking at it does not contradict the meaning of the text.

 

[maryj]

Just a thought that I’ve had as I read the Epistle to the Hebrews.

It seems to me that the book of Hebrews centers on the High Priest - not the priesthood in general. This is the only letter written specifically to the Jews. They had been used to having a visible, mortal man as their high priest - with offerings of visible blood to atone for their sins. (Recall it was only the high priest who could go into the Holy of Holies to offer the sacrificial blood for the atonement of sin). It was probably an adjustment to do without a visible high priest. And now the sacrificial offering visibly looks like bread and wine (like Melchizedek’s offering) and not sacrificed flesh and blood.

We’re just not “spirit” beings; we need the physical in order to experience and come to know things. Granted, there are times when God directly infuses knowledge - but that is rare.

Just to add to this a bit. Jesus was never allowed to enter into the Holy of Holies…until His death on the Cross, when the temple veil was torn.

 

[NonCatholic]

The Catholic priesthood is true and biblical. Jesus is the high priest in the Catholic priesthood - there is no other high priest, nor will there ever be, because Our Lord now lives forever. He is the eternal high priest and the eternal sacrificial offering.

The true offering takes place in heaven. But Our Lord desired and instituted a way for us to participate in the heavenly liturgy/offering where He acts as high priest. He did this by ordaining visible, mortal men to act as his priests on earth. He took visible bread and wine which He miraculously changes into Himself – the only true and holy sacrificial offering. At Mass, when the priest prays (as a visible representative of Our Lord), that liturgy in our earthly sanctuary is united/joined to the heavenly liturgy.

I have not inserted all the Scripture references. If you want them, I would just suggest you read the Last Supper accounts with any cross references to Corinthians where Paul speaks of the Eucharist. And reread Hebrews again through the “glasses” of the above paragraph.

Nita

**If you really and truly believe that, then you miss the entire point of Hebrews. The Catholic priesthood is not even in the same ball park as the levitical priesthood; yet alone Melchizedek. The priesthood is an invention and a poor shadow of the levitical priesthood. Admitting and seeing that would be to deny the “faith”, this was hard for many Jews in Jesus day; therefore many rejected Him; likewise you are in the same dilemma.

The whole point is to show that their was no longer an earthly priesthood**. :banghead: uch:

 

[NonCatholic]

Just to add to this a bit. Jesus was never allowed to enter into the Holy of Holies…until His death on the Cross, when the temple veil was torn.

Actually, there was no more Holy of Holies after His death, part of the point God made with a big exclamation by renting the temple to expose the Holy of Holies. Another reason we don’t have nor need a earthly priesthood. As you know, the Scripture speaks of the royal priesthood of believers with Jesus being the High Priest. That would be the extent of any earthly priesthood.

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic priesthood is not even in the same ball park as the levitical priesthood;

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

yet alone Melchizedek.

It is only this way because Catholic priests are taken up into Christ’s priesthood.

The priesthood is an invention and a poor shadow of the levitical priesthood.

No. It is true that the Levitical priesthood does prefigure the NT priesthod, it is a totally new creation, just like His Body, the Church, which they serve.

Admitting and seeing that would be to deny the "faith", this was hard for many Jews in Jesus day; therefore many rejected Him; likewise you are in the same dilemma.

It is not a dilemma for us, Non We recieve the priests as gifts from God.

The whole point is to show that their was no longer an earthly priesthood

. :banghead: uch:

Well, I am sure it seems that way to you.

 

[NonCatholic]

No, those who are in Christ live forever!

The Catholic priesthood is completely derived from the high priesthood of Christ. That is why it is in the order of Melchizedek.

If you are so hardened against following a Catholic priest, what are you doing on CAF? Surely you know by now that we recieve the priest as a gift by God to the church!

You are misunderstanding the statements about calling spiritual leaders “father”. Priests are taken up into the fatherhood of God. Jesus and Paul both taught about not becoming factious. However, Paul referred to himself as father several times.

We don’t believe that “scripture teaches”, Non. Words and books cannot “teach”. ** Of course, you have to say that in order to reconcile an illegitimate man-made teaching to fit Scripture. It’s an old argument the devil has used before the NT**Teaching is a role that requires rationality, discernment, and for Christians, authority. These are not qualities that belong to books, however Holy. When you say “scripture teaches” what we understand that to mean is your own private interpretation. You only emasculate Scripture; therefore I do not take the offense personally; but I am certain God does.

We receive the teachings from the Apostles, that is how we know that this way of looking at it does not contradict the meaning of the text.

You fooling or allowing yourself to be fooled. But you have to because to believe what you see and read in Hebrews 7 & 8 would be equivalent to denying your faith, the same problem the book of Hebrews was addressing…those Jews who couldn’t let go of the sacrificial levitical system in exchange for Christ. No big deal, you still have your faith.

 

[guanophore]

Actually, there was no more Holy of Holies after His death, part of the point God made with a big exclamation by renting the temple to expose the Holy of Holies. Another reason we don’t have nor need a earthly priesthood. As you know, the Scripture speaks of the royal priesthood of believers with Jesus being the High Priest. That would be the extent of any earthly priesthood.

Our modern word “priest” is a Latinization of the term “presbyter” in the NT. If you read the duties of the presbyter, you will see that they are identical to that of the Catholic priest today.

 

[NonCatholic]

Our modern word “priest” is a Latinization of the term “presbyter” in the NT. If you read the duties of the presbyter, you will see that they are identical to that of the Catholic priest today.

That’s great! More to join the party!

 

[Nita]

**
The whole point is to show that their was no longer an earthly priesthood**. :banghead: uch:

The whole point is to show that there is no longer an earthly High Priest.

 

[NonCatholic]

The whole point is to show that there is no longer an earthly High Priest.

And with the earthly high priest, goes the earthly priesthood, except the little royal priesthood called the saints, the elect, the chose of God.

You cannot admit the obvious, it would destroy your faith and you know it, so keep your faith and feel good.

 

[guanophore]

And with the earthly high priest, goes the earthly priesthood, except the little royal priesthood called the saints, the elect, the chose of God.

You cannot admit the obvious,

As with most of the accusations you make here, this also applies more to yourself than it does to anyone else. Jesus priesthood is not “little”. I think that admitting that the early Church believed and taught the priesthood would be muchmore damaging to your faith than mine! I have already come to grips with this truth.

it would destroy your faith and you know it, so keep your faith and feel good.

On the contrary, I have not “felt good” about the priesthood in this lifetime. I grew up in a period of gross moral laxity and liturgical abuse. In recent years, even more heinous crimes have emerged from among the priesthood. I understand that the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, so I embrace the whole faith that Christ committed to the Church, including the priesthood that He established. The shortcomings of men cannot nullify the Gift of God’s grace in this area.

I also do not need the priesthood to “keep the faith”. God could have set it up any way He wanted. he chose to ordain priests to minister to the saints.

 

[maryj]

Actually, there was no more Holy of Holies after His death, part of the point God made with a big exclamation by renting the temple to expose the Holy of Holies. Another reason we don’t have nor need a earthly priesthood. As you know, the Scripture speaks of the royal priesthood of believers with Jesus being the High Priest. That would be the extent of any earthly priesthood.

oh contrare’ Jesus Christ is in the Holy of Holies offering eternally His sacrifice. Check out Revelation you might find it pertinent to this conversation.

 

[NonCatholic]

oh contrare’ Jesus Christ is in the Holy of Holies offering eternally His sacrifice. Check out Revelation you might find it pertinent to this conversation.

You need to be specific. The Holy of Holies is a place.
2 Chronicles 3:8 “Now he made the room of the holy of holies: its length across the width of the house {was} twenty cubits, and its width {was} twenty cubits; and he overlaid it with fine gold, {amounting} to 600 talents.” In Hebrews 9:3 it is called a tabernacle.

 

[NonCatholic]

As with most of the accusations you make here, this also applies more to yourself than it does to anyone else. Jesus priesthood is not “little”. I think that admitting that the early Church believed and taught the priesthood would be muchmore damaging to your faith than mine! I have already come to grips with this truth.
Christians/saints = little Christs, that’s what i was thinking.

On the contrary, I have not “felt good” about the priesthood in this lifetime. I grew up in a period of gross moral laxity and liturgical abuse. In recent years, even more heinous crimes have emerged from among the priesthood. I understand that the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, so I embrace the whole faith that Christ committed to the Church, including the priesthood that He established. The shortcomings of men cannot nullify the Gift of God’s grace in this area.

I also do not need the priesthood to “keep the faith”. God could have set it up any way He wanted. he chose to ordain priests to minister to the saints.

You mean Catholic priests?

 

[Nita]

And with the earthly high priest, goes the earthly priesthood, except the little royal priesthood called the saints, the elect, the chose of God.

No. There is an still an earthly New Covenant priesthood - as God prophecied there would be through Isaiah:
Isaiah 66:18-21 …and I am coming to gather all nations and tongues; … And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.

You cannot admit the obvious, it would destroy your faith and you know it…

You are so wrong. (There’s no need to get personal, especially to the point of thinking you can read my mind and heart!)
I lost my faith in Christianity once.
It was God’s great gift of restoring my faith in Jesus that has, with time (over 40 years), continued to reveal more and more the truths of Catholic teaching as they are contained in Scripture.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If you really and truly believe that, then you miss the entire point of Hebrews. The Catholic priesthood is not even in the same ball park as the levitical priesthood; yet alone Melchizedek. The priesthood is an invention and a poor shadow of the levitical priesthood. Admitting and seeing that would be to deny the “faith”, this was hard for many Jews in Jesus day; therefore many rejected Him; likewise you are in the same dilemma.

The whole point is to show that their was no longer an earthly priesthood.

The New Testament Priesthood - that is, the priesthood of the Catholic Church - is superior to the Levitical priesthood because Christ Himself established it.

Let’s recap: the entire nation of Israel was a “kingdom of priests”, the tribe of Levi served as a ministerial priesthood, and Aaron served in the highest place. Thus, in the Old Testament, we find a foreshadowing of the New Testament priesthood that includes the Priesthood of All Believers, the ministerial or hierarchical priesthood consisting of Bishops, Priests and Deacons, and Jesus, our eternal High Priest.

I’ve given you the following articles previously…now, I’d REALLY like to suggest that you print them out and read them.

Did Jesus Give Priests to the Church?
By Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0404sbs.asp

Why We Have a Ministerial Priesthood
By Tim Staples
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea4.asp

 

[NonCatholic]

No. There is an still an earthly New Covenant priesthood - as God prophecied there would be through Isaiah:
Isaiah 66:18-21 …and I am coming to gather all nations and tongues; … And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD. You need to check your context. This is in the future, not the now…should be obvious and not relative to the topic.

You are so wrong. (There’s no need to get personal, especially to the point of thinking you can read my mind and heart!)
I lost my faith in Christianity once. How do you know it now isn’t a false sense? I’m not saying it is, just inquiring.
It was God’s great gift of restoring my faith in Jesus that has, with time (over 40 years), continued to reveal more and more the truths of Catholic teaching as they are contained in Scripture. The day you begin to focus truths of Scripture and relate that to the Catholic teaching, not the other way around, then you will really grow.