Ordination in my Diocese *!

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scylla

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*with abuses…

So we just had the ordination of some priests in my diocese, thank God!, yet they did the Mass of ordination while allowing liturgical abuse, thus propagating dissent and a culture of liturgical abuse to new priests in my diocese.

What should be done, especially since it is my Bishop who is doing this?
sbdiocese.org/Gunningham_Oropel_Ordination/pages/Gunningham-Oropel_4119.htm

My Bishop knows about this since he is doing this, do you really think he is ignorant of the prohibition against consecration then pouring the Sacred Blood?

I know this is like an everyday thing but this is my Bishop doing this, what do I do? (don’t say go to a TLM, as that will only solve the problem for me in witnessing this, I want faithful liturgies)

God Bless
Scylla
 
Cardinal Francis Arinze
Prefect - Congregation for Divine Worship
Piazza Pio XII, 10
Vatican City (Europe) 00120
 
Before going to the Cardinal, write a letter to the Bishop at least expressing your disappointment. He knows of the abuse, but it would help him to know that the faithful know and care. Then write to the Holy See.
 
I will write the Bishop first, as he is my shephard and should be leading us in obedience. He is the one at center in the picture.

Should I trust my Bishop by using my name, as I am quite involved in my parish. Not that I am scared of repercussions(I have never met a liberal who could logically justify their positions), yet I want to be prudent and not alienate myself when I could still contribute to my parish positively.

Thank you,
Scylla
 
scylla said:
I will write the Bishop first, as he is my shephard and should be leading us in obedience. He is the one at center in the picture.

Should I trust my Bishop by using my name, as I am quite involved in my parish. Not that I am scared of repercussions(I have never met a liberal who could logically justify their positions), yet I want to be prudent and not alienate myself when I could still contribute to my parish positively.

Thank you,
Scylla
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I think you have to use your name. People pay little attention to anonymous complaints. Don’t worry, you’re in the right here, no matter how others react.

God Bless
 
scylla said:
I will write the Bishop first, as he is my shephard and should be leading us in obedience. He is the one at center in the picture.

Should I trust my Bishop by using my name, as I am quite involved in my parish. Not that I am scared of repercussions(I have never met a liberal who could logically justify their positions), yet I want to be prudent and not alienate myself when I could still contribute to my parish positively.

Thank you,
Scylla
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Maybe sign your letter —concerned parishioner.
 
I’d have to agree with bilop. If it’s important enough to you (and it should be) to pick up a pen and write a letter, than it’s important enough to sign your name.

Signing your name changes the letter from a complaint to a concern. True concerns are always received more favorably and reasonably than complaints.

Don’t make threats, and reference Church documentation rather than simply stating the concern.
 
Walking_Home said:
Maybe sign your letter —concerned parishioner.
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I know that if my bishop received an anonymous letter like that (and "concerned parishioner"is anonymous) he would throw it in the waste basket. I agree with him. If you have anything to tell him, sign your name.

Have courage, or don’t complain.
 
May I point something out here?

Is it possible that this is not about some crazy, liberal idealistic bishop, but rather someones mistake, oversight, or some OTHER person doing things wrong?

I can’t know for sure - But I’d be willing to bet that when the bishop and his diocessan liturgist meet to review the ordination liturgy, it will be discussed that that practice is not correct and that it should be changed for next year.

You have no idea how many things I’ve seen that were technically wrong, and someone knew it, and made notes for planning for the next time.

Even bishops, with the authority to order change, live in the real world. Is it possible that someone else prepared the liturgy, and having realized what was going on at the last minute, the bishop simply directed that notes be made to not continue this practice next time, rather than sending everyone scurrying around 5 minutes before the ordination mass to change things?

A letter to the Vatican is not necessary for every mistake, shortchange, or even “abuse”.
 
All the Bishop had to do to make it right was to pour the wine into the Chalices before he consecrated it. It is not like it needed to be planned to do.

As an adult altar server, there are plenty of Priests who just grab some chalices and then pour the wine before they go ahead with the consecration. It is not something that needs to be planned either way.

This is the center of the Mass and out of respect for God must be done properly, so it is not like this is a mistake.

It takes about 10 seconds to turn and move chalices over to the Altar.

This is deliberately been done in my parish for years and the reason to keep doing it has been stated that the “Bishop has not directed otherwise” . So in my parish we continue to disobey the Vatican, as the parish coordinator states that we must wait for a directive to follow the Vatican.

In Christ
Scylla

I am writing a respectful letter with my name on it. I know that people in my parish who have complained in the past have suffered repercussions from trying to have faithful Masses presented, so all I can do is wait and pray.
 
scylla said:
This is deliberately been done in my parish for years and the reason to keep doing it has been stated that the “Bishop has not directed otherwise” .
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For years there was nothing wrong with this. The prohibition against it is a fairly recent development, with the new GIRM.

As with any changes, some dioceses and some parishes are on board sooner than others. These things - ANY thing that involves changing human behavior - takes time.

What is more than likely being referred to by your parish coordinator is a forthcomming date that the bishop will determine as a deadline for when the whole diocese must be in compliance.
 
I am pretty sure we have never had permission to do so.

Our liturgical books essentially say the following,

We do not have permission to do this and are currently asking for permission to pour the consecrated blood.

Now permission has been denied.

Has there ever been permission to do this? I have looked but haven’t found it. Either way we do not have permission to change.

Why is it when people seek to be disobedient they can change behavior immediately as a statement, but when it comes to obedience it takes time to change human behavior.

I would think this is like a man repenting from cheating on his wife, (yet much more serious since we are talking about respecting God here) and then using the excuse that it will take time for him to get used to not cheating on her, so give him time to change his behavior.

God Bless
Scylla
 
The difference is quite simple.

One is something any sane person knows is inherrantly wrong and really doesn’t need to think about. It’s morally wrong and one would know it. So just one should just STOP.

The other is not something that anyone other than you would think of as horrible, immoral behavior. It takes time to THINK, and REMEMBER “Wait … we are supposed to do it THIS way now.”
 
It is horrible, immoral and disrespectful, if you really believe it is Jesus’s Body and Blood up there on the Altar.
This is much more serious than adultery as this is disrespecting God. Many people do not realize that these days, they think it is just some happy meal.

I understand what you mean that not everyone sees it that way, and they might not understand the gravity of the situation.

But as people who have dedicated their lives to offering the Mass for the Salvation of souls the Priests should take their jobs as life and death situations.(Salvation wise) I know many don’t these days and it is unfortunate that they do not respect their responsibility.

So as laity I believe it is our duty to respectfully remind them of their responsibility that they have as Alter Christus.

I would hope some priest would correct me if I didn’t do what I was supposed to do.

I stupid old me sees the problem, I am pretty sure the 7 or so Priests, plus two Bishops would see the problem as they are up there.

In Christ
Scylla
 
There is a HUGE monumental difference between deliberately abusing the Eucharist to disrespect it and making mistakes in its celebration - Or, EVEN taking a few liberties with it.

It’s all about their intentions and state of mind.

I really hate to spew cliches, but honestly, how high up there would this rank on Jesus’ scale of concern? I guess we can’t know for sure. But I have my suspicions …
 
So do you think this was a mistake?

I am a lay person and I do not make mistakes like this assisting at Mass. I assist about once a month.

As far as how high this is in importance, I would point to the fate of Uzza when he inadvertantly touched the Ark of the Covenant.
(1 Chr. 13:10-11)
Bam! God took him out.

Jesus present on the Altar is a little more important than the Ark of the Covenant. So I would put this as infinitely more important than a Priests personal preferences or laxness in his responsibility.

God Bless
Scylla
 
PaixGioiaAmor said:
There is a HUGE monumental difference between deliberately abusing the Eucharist to disrespect it and making mistakes in its celebration - Or, EVEN taking a few liberties with it.

It’s all about their intentions and state of mind.

I really hate to spew cliches, but honestly, how high up there would this rank on Jesus’ scale of concern? I guess we can’t know for sure. But I have my suspicions …
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Your right we really can’t know how concerned Jesus really is about one mistake/abuse at one mass, or even the continuation of that one mistake/abuse. However, given that the priests/bishops are to guide his flock and act for him, I suspected he might be a little more concerned than you think. I’m not meaning to attack you or others that believe the same way you do. However just a quick note, I have never just witnessed one mistake/abuse, or even where a couple of mistakes only happened once. . Where there is smoke, there is usually a fire. And I have never heard of anyone complaining about one mistake/abuse. Its always a series of mistakes/abuses that really the priest knows better than to do but continues to do anyways.

You are right,we can’t tell the intentions or the thoughts of the priest during the mass, and his thoughts and intentions are important. But again if his whole heart and soul are directed towards honoring God and making sure that his parishoners are honoring God, logically speaking shouldn’t he be a little more careful about make mistakes, or allowing abuses to happen?

Historybrat
 
He is the bishop and must be held responsible for his errors. Liturgical abuse and lack of reverence must end!

ourladyswarriors.org/articles/badliturgy.htm

Please contact:

Cardinal Francis Arinze
Prefect - Congregation for Divine Worship
Piazza Pio XII, 10
Vatican City (Europe) 00120
 
Are you truly a seminarian?

If so be careful what you advise people to do.

Keep in mind the documents can be QUITE RIGID in prescribing EXACT movements, postures, and such.

How will you feel a few years down the line, when in a moment of human forgetfulness, you forget to make a bow here or there, or you forget that on Good Friday the opening prayer is to be said with hands folded, not outstretched - the one time of the year this ever occurs - and someone writes to Rome because you disobeyed a rubric?
 
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