Ordination in my Diocese *!

[Seminarian_Matt]

Are you truly a seminarian?

If so be careful what you advise people to do.

Keep in mind the documents can be QUITE RIGID in prescribing EXACT movements, postures, and such.

How will you feel a few years down the line, when in a moment of human forgetfulness, you forget to make a bow here or there, or you forget that on Good Friday the opening prayer is to be said with hands folded, not outstretched - the one time of the year this ever occurs - and someone writes to Rome because you disobeyed a rubric?

Yes, I am a seminarian and if I do make a mistake, as a priest, the layperson who notices it should come to me and discuss it. If I refuse to change, then the layperson who direct the complaint to the bishop. If the bishop does nothing then the complaint should be sent to Rome. If I am a bishop and refuse to change the incorrect action then I should be reported to Rome.

‘Therefore no other person whatsoever, not even a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on their own authority’ (Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium, #22.3).

 

[gvogt4]

“Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

 

[rwoehmke]

It is horrible, immoral and disrespectful, if you really believe it is Jesus’s Body and Blood up there on the Altar.
This is much more serious than adultery as this is disrespecting God. Many people do not realize that these days, they think it is just some happy meal. I understand what you mean that not everyone sees it that way, and they might not understand the gravity of the situation.

Hey, be cool. Don’t have a stroke over it. Write your letter. Be respectful and not too emotional. Do not attack or denigrate anyone. Sign it. Be sure to sign it. Our local pastor and bishop just “round file” anything not signed. That doesn’t mean you will get a response.
You are correct, it is difficult to see why such a simple stright forward rule can’t be followed.

 

[otjm]

It is horrible, immoral and disrespectful, if you really believe it is Jesus’s Body and Blood up there on the Altar.

And writing in this fashion is one of the reasons that complaints like yours continue to be ignored. It is a rule. The Church as the authority to make the rules. It used to be the rule that the priest could only touch the Host with thumb and forefinger. TYouching the Host with all of his fingers now is not horrible, not immoral, and not disrespectful. It is just different.

Pouring the Precious Blood into other chalices after Concecration could be seen as a somewhat casual act, although the actual pouring is neither casual nor not casual. It is simply the transfering from one vessel to another. It does provide an opportunity for some to be spilled, and that seems to be more to the reason that the practice was disallowed than anything else. It is not an issue of breaking one of the 10 Commandments (which is what we usually relate to for a charge of “immoral”); it si breaking a Church ruile and if done with the intent to violate the rule, is an issue of disobedience. If it is not doen with the intent of specific disobedience, then it is not even immoral in those terms. Wrong, as it does not follow the rubrics, but not a moral issue.

I do not question that you see it as horrible, but there are many who do not see it as horrible; what they see as horrible is putting the mechanics of law over the substance of what the law is about. And that is what Christ repeatedly accused the Pharisees of doing. They knew precisely how many steps they could take on the Sabbath before they violated Sabbath laws; but the didn’t seem to really understand what the Sabbath was about. Christ and the disciples were accused of shucking and eating grain on the Sabbath, which He and they did, and that specifically was a violation of the Sabbath laws. If Christ was the perfect Jew (and he was), then one needs to understand what Christ’s comment about the Sabbath being for man, not man for the Sabbath rally means.

And as far as your comments about some people thinking the Eucharist is just a happy meal, I am going to be charitible and presume you are not implying that the bishop or the priests at the ordination feel that way. The issue of people not understanding the meaning of the Eucharist is due to poor or non-existent catechesis, not to whether or not the wine is poured into chalices before the Consecration, or the pouring is done after. Most people don’t even know there was a rule passed about it. The rule or lack of rule is not the reason they don’t understand the Eucharist.

 

[scylla]

I understand that I might sound a little harsh, yet we must not be lukewarm in our faith.

I agree that there isnt much difference between using three fingers or using the hand. It is still the Priests Holy hands touching the Body of Christ and it isn’t disrespectful.

A Priest has the responsibility to respect the Body of Christ and the Blood of Christ and to convey that to others. By deliberately dis-respecting the method of consecration that is allowed by introducing a personal variation that is prohibited, they are not being obedient.

What is the sin of Adam? To disobey God and place oneself first above the rules of God.

I would take the comments about the Pharisees you used as a good example of people placing themselves at the advantage of God’s law, and then using this as an excuse to sin. (To feel better about themselves.) Some Priests take their position to assert a disobedience to God, in a false sense of obedience to making people feel good.
This is placing man above God like the Pharisees, which is what Jesus condemned.

Everything should be done in humility which is submitting oneself to correction, to truth, to obedience. Or else it is horrible, immorral and disrespectful.

Yes I do speak harsh, but it is true. Why ignore the message if it isn’t spoken like I am trying to baby the person.

Of course I am not going to speak to my Shephard this way, as these days people do ignore statements that are spoken too directly even if they are true.

You do bring up a good example of the problems today…
A man can tell his friend, “dont’ drive you are drunk” and the guy might get mad but hopefully will stop.
Or he can say, “It is just my opinion and I could be wrong, but it would be a better idea if you didn’t drive home” Whereupon the guy persisting in his pride just says “thanks for the tip” drives home and kills someone.
Either way he could always, use the offense excuse. “who are you to speak to me that way, get out of my way” and go kill that person.

It is difficult to stand up for truth, as people will always seek excuses to continue in sin.

In Christ
Scylla

It is charitable to point out problems and it is an act of humility for a person to accept the correction and try to do better. It is shameful to allow people to continue in disobedience, by failing to correct.

 

[scylla]

I am pretty sure the Bishop knows what the Mass means even though he doesn’t act like it. We are at the foot of the cross at Mass at the Holy Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus, which commands utmost respect.

Do all Bishops act like they believe this? Here in California they do not, though I think they know what it means.

You can know what is right and still do wrong. I know a man who says he shouldn’t smoke and he continues. I know a Bishop who knows this is wrong and continues allow this to continue in my diocese. Bill Clinton knew it was wrong to mess around but that doesn’t make him ignorant of the wrong, he just did it anyways.

That is what drives me nuts, deliberate disobedience and persistance.

Don’t worry though I am just letting off steam here, so my Bishop will get a letter that is calm and collected.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[gvogt4]

emphasis mine

“We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as definitive and has as its highest value one’s own ego and one’s own desires. The church needs to withstand the tides of trends and the latest novelties.” Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Seminarian_Matt]

emphasis mine

“We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as definitive and has as its highest value one’s own ego and one’s own desires. The church needs to withstand the tides of trends and the latest novelties.” Pope Benedict XVI

Exactly!

Redemptionis Sacramentum states: “[106.] However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms.”

If you see a bishop (of all people ) doing this, you need to report this. You are doing this to prevent desecration to the Body of Christ. It is the responsible of lay people, who are members of th royal priesthood as well, to report liturgical abuses.

"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.” Matthew 18:15-17

The blogger at Catholic Warrior was going through a similiar situation with his priest. I repeat to the person who started this topic: Please write to the Vatican.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Before going to the Cardinal, write a letter to the Bishop at least expressing your disappointment. He knows of the abuse, but it would help him to know that the faithful know and care. Then write to the Holy See.

For a California diocese, “the Cardinal” perpetrates the very same abuse, so there’s probably little point in informing him. Correspondence should take place with the ordinary, because he is both the one in need of correction and the one who can fix the bad education given his priests, but then I would jump to the nuncio.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

For a California diocese, “the Cardinal” perpetrates the very same abuse, so there’s probably little point in informing him. Correspondence should take place with the ordinary, because he is both the one in need of correction and the one who can fix the bad education given his priests, but then I would jump to the nuncio.

The Cardinal has no authority over other bishops in his providence.

As the archbishop, he has certain added responsibilities and certain ceremonial priviledges, but in a bishop’s own diocese, he is sovereign, answering to the Holy See.

 

[dulcissima]

You might be interested in reading this article about a similar practice in another parish here in Southern California. Interestingly, this similar abuse still took place when Mass was presided over by a cardinal from the Vatican.

…On August 6, 2006, the feast of the Transfiguration, I attended the noon Mass at St. Jude’s. As in its early years, the parish was, that Sunday, served by a supply priest. And, as in the early years, that priest was William Levada, now Cardinal William Levada, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and third ranking official of the Catholic Church, after the pope and the Holy See’s secretary of state.

I was curious to see what would result from the meeting of the Roman prelate and the ultra-moderne parish. In keeping with the cardinal’s new status and the often-expressed wishes of Benedict XVI, would there be Latin? Would there be chant? Would any of Cardinal Mahony’s peculiar liturgical innovations (at least one outlawed expressly by the Holy See) be employed?

losangelesmission.com/ed/roamincatholic/2006roamin/0611roam.htm