Ordination of Women

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In the course of discussions on the priesthood I often hear comments like, “A woman can be a counselor, right? She can manage a parish, right? She can have some good things to say while preaching, right? She can even do the same things a man does in order to confect the sacraments! So what’s the big deal?”

These comments, in my opinion, show an impoverished understanding of the priesthood.

The priesthood is not a job. It’s not what he does (for, to be sure, a woman can “do” all those things a priest does rather nicely!) It’s who he is. At his very essence.

I heard Fr. Vincent Serpa say, regarding Baptism (paraphrasing): If we could see the change that occurs in the soul of the newly baptized, nuclear fission would appear as child’s play. A sublime, profound change occurs, at our very essence, at the very moment we are baptized. An indelible (unchangeable, immortal) mark has been placed on our soul–more powerful than any mere nuclear fission!

Similarly, at the ordination of a priest a profound change occurs. What existed 30 seconds prior to his consecration does not exist anymore. He is a new creation: a priest, configured to Christ. Ontologically there is a change in his being. He may* look* like the same man, but what has just occurred is earth-shatteringly sublime! Just like in our sacrament of the Eucharist: “to observe that after bread becomes the Sacred Body of Christ, it still tastes like bread and feels like bread, but is now the Body of Christ? There has been an ontological change. A cup of wine still smells like wine and tastes like it, but it is now the Blood of Christ. At ordination an ontological change takes place.” source.

So ordination is not the “deputizing” of someone to perform an assignment; it is NOT the admission of someone to a profession such medicine or law.

Thus, just as at our essence we women can never be fathers, no matter what functions we perform better than men, we can never be a father to our children. When we women throw a baseball with our sons, go hiking with our daughters, teach our children to light a campfire, we are doing the same things men often do, but it’s always as mothers.

So, even if a woman were “ordained” to the priesthood, still she would not be, at her essence, a priest. It’s just not ontologically possible. That is, no amount of ontological change can transform a woman into a priest–at her essence she always remains a woman. [SIGN1]And a woman can never be a father.[/SIGN1]
I think we are using the word “ontologically” differently. To me, you are saying that a change in the person’s nature is occurring. To me, that is impossible, unless you are turning a person into a non-person. OUr nature is to be human. Christ became human, because we share in his human nature, the Incarnation affects all humans. If women are not sharing in human nature, that is a problem. Essentially, sex is not a matter of having a different essential nature, or men and women would not both be human.

I understand of course that is not what you are saying at all - I am fairly sure you would agree that in the sense I have outlined, men woman and Christ are all ontologically the same - human beings.

In any case, this is where those who favour WO would place the problem, IMO.
 
I think we are using the word “ontologically” differently.
Yes. The ontological difference between men and women (and who can doubt that!) is secondary in the argument against women’s ordination.

The primary argument regarding ontology, as it pertains to ordination, is the ontological change that occurs at the moment a man consecrates himself to Christ in the priesthood.
 
I don’t see the connection. Yes, the body is different, but it doesn’t follow that the soul is. I am not sure there is such a thing as a male and a female soul.
THat is an interesting point. The soul is the form of the body - it makes it what it is and not something else. So as Christians that believe that physical matter is a real part of who we are and not just an imperfect instantiation of that, it suggests that our sex is in some way reflected in the soul. And in fact, the Church has come to the conclusion that we retain our sexual identity in Heaven, and presumably also in the New Creation. Our souls are men and women, not neuters.

On the other hand, it is not really possible to say that men and women are totally different things. We share our human nature. So thee question is, what is the nature of our sexual differences?

Some I believe have suggested that women participate in human nature through men, in a way similar to the way creation is connected to heaven through human-kind. This is not a popular view in the Church at this time though, and some problems arise from it.
 
What about the diaconate? I for one have concluded that women should not be ordained to the priesthood, after having women’s ordaination as “ordained bishops” in the Church of God shoved down my throad in seminary during my time as a Pentecostal.

I think 1 Timothy 3 speaks of deaconesses. Some interpret this to be “wives of deacons”. But deacons do not perform priestly functions which are tied to a man’s fatherhood. To me, there is nothing scripturally, or functionally, that prohibits women from being ordained to the deaconate.
 
The priesthood is not a job. It’s not what he does (for, to be sure, a woman can “do” all those things a priest does rather nicely!) It’s who he is. At his very essence.:SIGN1]
👍 The above is indeed the crux of the matter !!

God Bless
Happy thanksgiving all:)
 
Deaconesses were not ordained, however. Deacons were. That was always my understanding. Deaconesses were primarily in existence because they ministered to women during the baptismal ceremony to maintain the modesty of women who were fully immersed, a delicate situation that necessitated a woman’s aid. Most theologians today believe that deaconesses were not sacramentally ordained but rather called as helpers mostly to minister to women in delicate situations like the baptismal right aforementioned. While I’m personally not a fan, it is not as repugnant or objectionable as the idea of women being fathers to us through the priesthood. It is precisely issues like these where I think the Catholic Church is spot-on and it causes me to reconsider Catholicism. I’m heavily considering a return and this issue is one of my pet peeves that only urges me to do so…
What about the diaconate? I for one have concluded that women should not be ordained to the priesthood, after having women’s ordaination as “ordained bishops” in the Church of God shoved down my throad in seminary during my time as a Pentecostal.

I think 1 Timothy 3 speaks of deaconesses. Some interpret this to be “wives of deacons”. But deacons do not perform priestly functions which are tied to a man’s fatherhood. To me, there is nothing scripturally, or functionally, that prohibits women from being ordained to the deaconate.
 
Yes. The ontological difference between men and women (and who can doubt that!) is secondary in the argument against women’s ordination.

The primary argument regarding ontology, as it pertains to ordination, is the ontological change that occurs at the moment a man consecrates himself to Christ in the priesthood.
Well, I clarified what I meant by the term ontological, and why it didn’t work. It would be helpful if you clarified what you meant by it. Otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about. To me, it is clear that men, women, priests, laymen, and Christ all participate in the same human nature. Are you disputing that? If not, what do you mean when you say they are ontologically different?
 
is there such a thing among them? ordination? i thougth ordination is only in the Apostolic Church.
The point is not whether we should refer to ordinations outside whatever you mean by the Apostolic Church. My OP was, and I’m afraid I haven’t seen an answer to it, what grounds theological or otherwise have various non-Catholic ecclesial communities used to justify the ordination of women.

Catholics may not like the ordination of women. We do not consider their ordinations valid. I have read the Latin Catholic Churches theological grounds for why we do not ordain women.

I trying to understand why other branches of Christianity feel it is appropriate to ordain women or if you prefer appoint them as pastors.
 
Usually Rev’d Jane or Rev’d Doe.
I know that there are many who really love their female pastors but it just wouldn’t work for me.

If the Catholic Church ordained women it would mean that the gates of hell have prevailed and I will have lost my Home.
 
PR Merger…

HOW I understand your reasoning…with your photos…every time my girlfriend went out with her husband taking care of 4 kids, something ALWAYS happened and it was bad. Mess, kids getting hurt, husband greeting wife when she gets home, "HI honey, how was your day…as if nothing happened.

There is more to come…

Happy Thanksgiving!
 
PR Merger…

The fact nobody got it about the photos, or they are eating…think of that as well a way to a man’s heart is through his stomach…

it passed over their heads…
 
On the topic of ordaining women, one of my fellow seminarians shared with me an excellent argument against it that was told to him by a Dominican. It goes something like this:

All sacraments require proper intent, form, and matter. For example, during baptism you must have the intent to bring the person into the Church, the form using the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the proper matter that is water. Every sacrament works like this. Now when it comes to ordaining women, the problem is in the matter. Simply, the male body is the proper matter, while the female body is not. This is due to the roles that male and female have in salvation. The male has the active role, and the female the passive role. Now, the word “passive” can appear as negative, but it really is not. The greatest examples of each role, male and female, is in Jesus and Mary. Jesus is very active. He teaches, he travels, he performs miracles, and he ultimately offers him up on the cross. Mary is more passive in her role. She accepts God’s offer to be mother to the Messiah, and lives out her role in salvation like that. While it is passive, no one would claim that this somehow lessens the value of what Mary did. We see this similarly with Mary (again) and Joseph. While Mary is the one who gives birth to Jesus, we see that Joseph is the one actively leading. Joseph is the one given the order to flee to Egypt, and so he is the one that takes the Holy Family and goes. Again, the same thing happens during the return from Egypt. Even in Adam and Eve we see something like this. Eve is tricked into eating the fruit, while Adam receives it, and eats it knowing exactly what he is doing. His role is more active, and the fall is always referred to as the “sin of Adam.” And so, the male is made for the more active role in salvation, and for this reason it is the man who is given holy orders, because they involve a more active ministry. Because of the female’s more passive role in salvation, they are improper matter for holy orders, just as apple juice would be improper for the Eucharist, and motor oil would be improper for the anointing of the sick.
 
PR Merger…

HOW I understand your reasoning…with your photos…every time my girlfriend went out with her husband taking care of 4 kids, something ALWAYS happened and it was bad. Mess, kids getting hurt, husband greeting wife when she gets home, "HI honey, how was your day…as if nothing happened.

There is more to come…

Happy Thanksgiving!
Yes, clearly that Y-chromosome alters them at their very essence (that is, ontologically). 😃

(Actually, folks, my tongue is a little bit planted in cheek. I truly love, love, love the male species! :hug1: Sometimes, though, I just look at this species and think, “Huh. You look like a rational, thoughtful human being, but what just came out of your mouth–not so much.”)
 
On the topic of ordaining women, one of my fellow seminarians shared with me an excellent argument against it that was told to him by a Dominican. It goes something like this:

All sacraments require proper intent, form, and matter. For example, during baptism you must have the intent to bring the person into the Church, the form using the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the proper matter that is water. Every sacrament works like this. Now when it comes to ordaining women, the problem is in the matter. Simply, the male body is the proper matter, while the female body is not. This is due to the roles that male and female have in salvation. The male has the active role, and the female the passive role. Now, the word “passive” can appear as negative, but it really is not. The greatest examples of each role, male and female, is in Jesus and Mary. Jesus is very active. He teaches, he travels, he performs miracles, and he ultimately offers him up on the cross. Mary is more passive in her role. She accepts God’s offer to be mother to the Messiah, and lives out her role in salvation like that. While it is passive, no one would claim that this somehow lessens the value of what Mary did. We see this similarly with Mary (again) and Joseph. While Mary is the one who gives birth to Jesus, we see that Joseph is the one actively leading. Joseph is the one given the order to flee to Egypt, and so he is the one that takes the Holy Family and goes. Again, the same thing happens during the return from Egypt. Even in Adam and Eve we see something like this. Eve is tricked into eating the fruit, while Adam receives it, and eats it knowing exactly what he is doing. His role is more active, and the fall is always referred to as the “sin of Adam.” And so, the male is made for the more active role in salvation, and for this reason it is the man who is given holy orders, because they involve a more active ministry. Because of the female’s more passive role in salvation, they are improper matter for holy orders, just as apple juice would be improper for the Eucharist, and motor oil would be improper for the anointing of the sick.
While I agree with the conclusion, and add that a valid sacrament also requires a valid minister, I’m not sure the logic would work like this. The recipient of the sacrament of holy orders is not the matter of the sacrament, per Pius XII’s SACRAMENTUM ORDINIS. The matter, in the sacrament of holy orders is the imposition of hands. A female is not a valid subject.

Same conclusion, though.

GKC
 
This is what I mean when I say men and women are ontologically different:

Would a mommy allow this?

findresults.site

Or this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3115/3234679434_6b18cb40b4.jpg?v=0

How much do you want to bet that this was a dad who took this photo (and possibly even set it up)? :sad_yes:

http://www.facetimepics.com/albums/userpics/10002/normal_kid-pig-kissing.jpg

😃 😃
Well, I let my daughter eat dog food, and I wouldn’t stop her from licking a pig’s nose either, unlike my husband who is very vigilant about such things. I did stop her from eating horse poop the other day, so I guess I am not a total loss as a mom.

In any case, it is really not an answer. I know men and women are different. That does not tell me what you mean by ontologically different.
 
The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have put forward strong theological arguments against the ordination of women. What is the theological argument put forward by Anglican and Protestant churches for the ordination of women or have they ordained women solely on the basis of sex discrimination?
The Anglican church (I am refering to the Church of England specifically) will not ordain women because it will cause mass division. That is the main reason.
 
Well, I let my daughter eat dog food,
Yikes!
and I wouldn’t stop her from licking a pig’s nose either, unlike my husband who is very vigilant about such things.
:eek:
I did stop her from eating horse poop the other day, so I guess I am not a total loss as a mom.
:clapping:
In any case, it is really not an answer. I know men and women are different. That does not tell me what you mean by ontologically different.
The best resource for this is Pope JPII’s magnificent Theology of the Body. But, if I had to condense it I would say it boils down to this: * in the beginning He created them, male and female.*

Thus, Pope JPII gloriously states: “Corporality and sexuality are not completely identified. Although the human body, in its normal constitution, bears within it the signs of sex and is, by its nature, male or female, the fact, however, that man is a “body” **belongs to the structure of the personal subject more deeply than the fact that he is in his somatic constitution also male or female. **Therefore the meaning of original solitude, which can be referred simply to “man”, is substantially prior to the meaning of original unity. The latter, in fact, is based on masculinity and femininity, as if on two different “incarnations”, that is, on two ways of “being a body” of the same human being, created “in the image of God” (Gen 1:27).” (bold mine)

IOW: there are “two ways of being a body”. Ontologically, one is male, and one is female.
 
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