Ordination of Women

[JohnnyReb]

Mother Teresa, Mother Angelica, and several Doctors of the Church did not need to behave like male priests to make huge contributions to the Church.

Anyway, I’m interested to know which communities currently ordaining women have *not *abandoned traditional Christian moral values concerning abortion, contraception, divorce, gay marriage, etc., etc.

Pentecostalism. Well maybe not as far as contraception goes (like many Protestants, but its not problematic for us) but all the others they have remained in the same as far as what Rome teaches and will not change.

 

[PRmerger]

Pentecostalism. Well maybe not as far as contraception goes (like many Protestants, but its not problematic for us) but all the others they have remained in the same as far as what Rome teaches and will not change.

Really? I’ve not heard of any Pentecostal congregations that have women ministers. It would seem to me that this would be resisted quite vociferously by the congregants.

But, I suppose it’s possible.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

As long as they weren’t wearing sunglasses, I think you are ok.

See what you did to me, Bluegoat?

Next time I pray the Rosary, I bet I will desperately need to fight a mental image of Apostles and Bishops, wearing ZZ Top beards with sunglasses…

 

[JohnnyReb]

Really? I’ve not heard of any Pentecostal congregations that have women ministers. It would seem to me that this would be resisted quite vociferously by the congregants.

But, I suppose it’s possible.

Oh absolutely. Heck, the Four Square church was founded by a woman. The Church of God (Cleveland, Tn) is debating now whether or ordain women as bishops. The Assemblies of God fully ordains women. There were many women in my seminary classess too at Church of God Seminary.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh absolutely. Heck, the Four Square church was founded by a woman. The Church of God (Cleveland, Tn) is debating now whether or ordain women as bishops. The Assemblies of God fully ordains women. There were many women in my seminary classess too at Church of God Seminary.

Fair enough.

 

[Bluegoat]

See what you did to me, Bluegoat?

Next time I pray the Rosary, I bet I will desperately need to fight a mental image of Apostles and Bishops, wearing ZZ Top beards with sunglasses…

Jesus was cool.

 

[Roy5]

1. I respect the idea (expressed above) that the priest somehow is changed fundamentally when he is ordained. However, I have known too many priests and read too many accounts of sexual and financial scandal to put much stock in that. I understand that this is based in large part upon transubstantiation and confession - the authority given priests in such situations - but I guess I remain a skeptic. Human beings are human whatever their vocation, even the priesthood. On the other hand, I don’t intend to debate the issue. It is a matter of faith, and while I have complete faith in God and trust n Christ, I have had a greater and greater problem embracing what could appear to many as accretions borrowed from other religions - mystery religions popular during the early Christian eras.
   1. Johnny Reb was quicker than I when it comes to ordination of women in Pentecostal churches. Some of those churches ordained women long before the mainline Protestant denominations did. I presume that the first Protestant group to ordain women, at least in any number, may have been the Salvation Army, which is a spin-off from the Methodists (Booth had been a Methodist minister in England). Certainly that group has garnered enormous respect. I believe - I may be wrong - that the SA, like the Quakers. has no sacraments as such, not even baptism or communion, common to nearly all other Protestants. I think they believe that sacraments can get in the way of simple faith, that they are easily ‘infiltrated’ by superstition, that people can rely too much on them when faith is the cornerstone of Christianity and not liturgical rites of any kind. Moreover, at least among Quakers (as I understand it), all of life is a sacrament in a basic sense, etc. Despite these ‘heresies’ here are two superb groups who, for their size, perhaps do more good work in the world (per caoita) than any other???
   2. I understand the innate resistance within most human beings to change, especially if we believe that everything as practiced two thousand years ago is as it should be done today. I have to smile when I find folks discussing whether the Church was purest in the 1st, 3rd, 11th or 16th century. Living in the past - ‘the good old days’ - is a great temptation, but it can keep us from relating well to the world as it exists today. The ordination of women priests eventually will come if the Church is to be true to its calling to be an effective witness to Christ. The Church will find ways and verses to justify it in time. Many policies that previously restricted the role of females during worship have been dropped, from having to cover their heads to not reading lessons from the altar. The advice of St. Paul has been set aside in favor of love and justice, two basic principles of true Christianity. Plenty of common sense was involved, too, and a willingness to change.
   God bless everybody, and may religion become more of a bridge and less of a barrier. I find it a scandal that so many Christians (of all varieties) continue to hold and even cultivate hostile feelings toward Christian groups (of other varieties). As I recalled, Christ’s two commandments were to love God and one another. “Think and let think” sounds right to me. My guess is that all of us miss the mark by a mile.

 

[PRmerger]

1. I respect the idea (expressed above) that the priest somehow is changed fundamentally when he is ordained. However, I have known too many priests and read too many accounts of sexual and financial scandal to put much stock in that.

I wouldn’t make any judgments about the fundamental change that occurred (or, to your point, possibly didn’t occur) based on their sin behavior. You don’t know what they would have done had they not been ontologically changed at ordination.

That reminds me of a story about the writer and Catholic Englishman Walker Percy who was a curmudgeonly old soul. Apparently, after an encounter with a snippy woman in which he was gruff–and, perhaps rude, boorish, curt–this woman sniffed, “And you call yourself a Catholic!” to which he replied, “My dear, you should imagine what I would be like were I not a Catholic.”

At any rate, the CC teaches that a profound ontological change occurs to the soul at the moment of Baptism as well. So if you’re going to judge priests for their sinfulness post-ordination you ought to judge all Christians for their sinfulness post-baptismas well.

 

[KathleenGee]

Roy,

You focus too much on human failing and have a penchant for looking for scandal The vast majority of priests are faithful.

You will never find perfection in any Christian for that matter. Once in heaven with the Lord, then you will have perfect Christians.

Instead, when the next priest passes you by, hold him at face value and assume he is persevering in his own faith, and look instead as God as our strength.

 

[mark_a]

Pentecostalism. Well maybe not as far as contraception goes (like many Protestants, but its not problematic for us) but all the others they have remained in the same as far as what Rome teaches and will not change.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I’m curious.

Is Pentacostalism a community of congregations? I thought it was more of a worship style.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mark,

Appreciated your post about the women wanting to become priests along with the fruits of their aspirations.

My former diocese had a group of sisters into power and exchanged their habits for executive suits, and no longer called themselves as having a vocation, but as having a job. They later thought they were being called to the priesthood. Some of them were put into seminaries to discern who has a priestly vocation…yes…men were being turned away.

They had a confrontation with the priests, demanding to enter the seminary…and they also finally stated that they wanted the end to daily Mass…no spiritual motherhood and not wanting to be spiritual fathers either. Bad fruit and they were finally expelled with new church leadership.

Catholic women who have devotion to Mary seek closer union with Christ and not power.

 

[mark_a]

Mark,

Appreciated your post about the women wanting to become priests along with the fruits of their aspirations.

My former diocese had a group of sisters into power and exchanged their habits for executive suits, and no longer called themselves as having a vocation, but as having a job. They later thought they were being called to the priesthood. Some of them were put into seminaries to discern who has a priestly vocation…yes…men were being turned away.

They had a confrontation with the priests, demanding to enter the seminary…and they also finally stated that they wanted the end to daily Mass…no spiritual motherhood and not wanting to be spiritual fathers either. Bad fruit and they were finally expelled with new church leadership.

Thanks for the kind words. Whenever I read a story like the one above, almost immediately I think of the serpent in Genesis and how he was able to make Adam and Eve desire the one thing they couldn’t have more than everything they did have.

Catholic women who have devotion to Mary seek closer union with Christ and not power.

That’s an observation I’ve never considered. Thanks!

 

[KathleenGee]

To deny any difference between male and female…what else can you say???

We women are not inferior.

The Catholic Church upholds the dignity of woman and woman as protected gender.

I shared this with Roy, but it didn’t go anywhere…

Through Bishop Zumarraga of Mexico…he gave women and girls the right to an education hundreds of years before America did.

When it comes to faith and holiness…one gender has no monopoly over the other. We have complimentary differences. God plays no differences.

Only men are called to the ministerial, liturgical and sacramental priesthood of Judeo Christian tradition. My pastor said we only have men called to the priesthood because that is what God wanted. Basta. He said he couldn’t say anything more why.

I would say …what else can you say that men and women are not the same??? I mean, there is the obvious…

 

[JohnnyReb]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I’m curious.

Is Pentacostalism a community of congregations? I thought it was more of a worship style.

There are many Pentecostal denominations. Assemblies of God, Church of God Cleveland Tn, Church of God of Prophecy, Four Square, Church of God in Christ and Pentecostal Holiness. Some are more Episcopal in their government-Church of God, Cleveland, and others are more free church like the South Baptists-such as the Assemblies of God.

 

[joandarc2008]

Pentecostalism. Well maybe not as far as contraception goes (like many Protestants, but its not problematic for us) but all the others they have remained in the same as far as what Rome teaches and will not change.

Funny thing is I have a Pentacostal friend who is from a very traditional group of Penatcostal charismatics who does not believe in contraception or the ordination of women either. She also believes in the True Presence she just fails to believe in the need for Apostolic Succession - I would love to sneak her in to a Catholic Charismatic service sometime and see what happens.

 

[mark_a]

There are many Pentecostal denominations. Assemblies of God, Church of God Cleveland Tn, Church of God of Prophecy, Four Square, Church of God in Christ and Pentecostal Holiness. Some are more Episcopal in their government-Church of God, Cleveland, and others are more free church like the South Baptists-such as the Assemblies of God.

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Funny thing is I have a Pentacostal friend who is from a very traditional group of Penatcostal charismatics who does not believe in contraception or the ordination of women either. She also believes in the True Presence she just fails to believe in the need for Apostolic Succession - I would love to sneak her in to a Catholic Charismatic service sometime and see what happens.

You should. She sounds more catholic charismatic then pentecostal anyway. It might be a better fit, and would ground her in a more traditional and historical branch of Christianity. As far as the ordaination of women is concerned, you will find a variety of opinions and practices depending on which pentecostal group you are dealing with.

At the last Church of God-Cleveland General Assembly, they put a motion on the floor to authorized the ordiation of women as bishops. It failed 42 to 58 percent. Debates and rhetoric from both sides got heated and nasty. Quite sad.

 

[edwest2]

1. I respect the idea (expressed above) that the priest somehow is changed fundamentally when he is ordained. However, I have known too many priests and read too many accounts of sexual and financial scandal to put much stock in that. I understand that this is based in large part upon transubstantiation and confession - the authority given priests in such situations - but I guess I remain a skeptic. Human beings are human whatever their vocation, even the priesthood. On the other hand, I don’t intend to debate the issue. It is a matter of faith, and while I have complete faith in God and trust n Christ, I have had a greater and greater problem embracing what could appear to many as accretions borrowed from other religions - mystery religions popular during the early Christian eras.
   1. Johnny Reb was quicker than I when it comes to ordination of women in Pentecostal churches. Some of those churches ordained women long before the mainline Protestant denominations did. I presume that the first Protestant group to ordain women, at least in any number, may have been the Salvation Army, which is a spin-off from the Methodists (Booth had been a Methodist minister in England). Certainly that group has garnered enormous respect. I believe - I may be wrong - that the SA, like the Quakers. has no sacraments as such, not even baptism or communion, common to nearly all other Protestants. I think they believe that sacraments can get in the way of simple faith, that they are easily ‘infiltrated’ by superstition, that people can rely too much on them when faith is the cornerstone of Christianity and not liturgical rites of any kind. Moreover, at least among Quakers (as I understand it), all of life is a sacrament in a basic sense, etc. Despite these ‘heresies’ here are two superb groups who, for their size, perhaps do more good work in the world (per caoita) than any other???
   2. I understand the innate resistance within most human beings to change, especially if we believe that everything as practiced two thousand years ago is as it should be done today. I have to smile when I find folks discussing whether the Church was purest in the 1st, 3rd, 11th or 16th century. Living in the past - ‘the good old days’ - is a great temptation, but it can keep us from relating well to the world as it exists today. The ordination of women priests eventually will come if the Church is to be true to its calling to be an effective witness to Christ. The Church will find ways and verses to justify it in time. Many policies that previously restricted the role of females during worship have been dropped, from having to cover their heads to not reading lessons from the altar. The advice of St. Paul has been set aside in favor of love and justice, two basic principles of true Christianity. Plenty of common sense was involved, too, and a willingness to change.
   God bless everybody, and may religion become more of a bridge and less of a barrier. I find it a scandal that so many Christians (of all varieties) continue to hold and even cultivate hostile feelings toward Christian groups (of other varieties). As I recalled, Christ’s two commandments were to love God and one another. “Think and let think” sounds right to me. My guess is that all of us miss the mark by a mile.

The Church worships the one true God, but not the god Change, who is widely worshipped here.

Change is not always good, but men seek to find a way to convince others. The Church has no authority to ordain women. This is a simple fact. Most who promote the ordination of women speak of a Church that is unknown to faithful Catholics – it is a Church founded by God and not men.

And while there are legitimate things to criticize, simply adding women to the equation does not make them immune from any failings. But that is not the point. Jesus Christ gave no authority to the Catholic Church to ordain women. To say otherwise is presumptious.

The word Protest is the key part of the word Protestant. I hold no hostile feeling towards Baptists or Evangelicals. I went to a Charismatic Christian Church. The Anglicans who are coming into the Church are a good recent example of the power of God. The Vatican did not run ads in the paper asking them to join.

The world as it exists today must be held to a standard. It did not get this way on its own. I work in the media and I watched the slow, gradual dripping of the poison into the general population over a period of 40 years. Don’t believe me? I recommend anyone pick up a copy of the following:

amazon.com/Marketing-Evil-Pseudo-Experts-Corruption-Disguised/dp/1581824599

Social stability is bad for business. You break down the family and you generate more business for divorce lawyers, psychiatrists and child care facilities to name a few. No one wants to go back to those good old days where neighbor helped neighbor for no money, where no one sued anyone at the drop of a hat, and where the kids could use the family car. Forget that. Let everyone live as total strangers, or hostile enemies, and buy their own car. It’s good business. And let them divorce and remarry 2 or 3 times - it’s good repeat business. Apartment building owners need more divorced men whose only friends are a 40 ounce beer and a computer.

God forbid,
Ed

 

[Captain_America]

It’s possible to take the “Make Everybody Equal” thing to preposterous levels. . . with philosophers making arguments about organ transplants, etc., to make people have the same physical constitutions!

Women have many great things to offer, and so do men. Let’s find the right way to bring all people into the Lord’s service. I happen to think men should be priests. . . and it’s surprising how much temporal power nuns have!

 

[PRmerger]

The Church worships the one true God, but not the god Change, who is widely worshipped here.

'zactly.

And the Church worships the one true God, not the god of Equality, who is also widely worshipped here.

“This is the single most common objection to the Faith today,** for “today” worships not God but equality.** It fears being right where others are wrong more than it fears being wrong. It worships democracy and resents the fact that God is an absolute monarch. It has changed the meaning of the word honor from being respected because you are superior in some way to being accepted because you are not superior in any way but just like us. The one unanswerable insult, the absolutely worst name you can possibly call a person in today’s society, is “fanatic”, especially “religious fanatic”. If you confess at a fashionable cocktail party that you are plotting to overthrow the government, or that you are a PLO terrorist or a KGB spy, or that you molest porcupines or bite bats’ heads off, you will soon attract a buzzing, fascinated, sympathetic circle of listeners. But if you confess that you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, you will find yourself suddenly alone, with a distinct chill in the air.” -Peter Kreeft