Organization Representing Canadian Religious Orders in Open, Major Public Dissent fro

[VociMike]

bones_IV:

They have as their father the devil.

They have as their father the spirit of the times.

Maybe we’re saying the same thing.

 

[m134e5]

solarwind23:

Do you know what percentage of Catholics actually follow the Church in its teaching on birth control?

Not very many- but just because most people disobey doesn’t make disobediance right.

Last time I checked Catholics were divorcing at the same rate as regular folk.

Not surprised- Catholics sin too.

Of course you might say they are not “real” Catholics. But just how many “real” Catholics are there? I remember seeing something like 5% of Catholics using NFP. Yep.

Again- truth isn’t determined by how many people follow it.

Western society is becoming more and more secular, the only places where the Church is growing is the third world. Chances are once they get industrialized, once everyone gets the same access to information that the rest of us have they’ll start leaving too.

Probably

As far as surviving for 2000 years, well Roman Emperors and the censorship/threat of the Inquisition certainly helped. But now that people are free and reading all the “forbidden” literature they are rejecting the Church overwhelmingly.

I know, and it is a matter of time before they seriously regret it.

What’s the birth rate in Italy? 1.something children per woman?

The Church will probably always be around, but if they keep at the rate they’re going it’ll be a group of “elite” celibate men out of touch with the rest of humanity.

If they want to actually do good in the world, why not focus on just that: doing good.

Catholics aren’t supposed to be of the world. They are supposed to live lives of holiness so that they will one day be with God in Heaven.

Care for people abandoned by spouses, care for people for whom NFP doesn’t work, etc. And in caring and looking out for human beings become people worth listening to and respecting.

That is exactly why so many Catholics leave the Church- people try to make the Church into nothing more than a food kitchen. Catholics should do these things- but the Church is primarily a spiritual institution- not a social justice one. It’s main mission is to save souls. It may help accomplish that by providing for the physical needs of the poor- but the purpose in that is so their body- and in turn their soul- may be saved- not simply to do good in the world. The poor will die whether they are fed or not. Those who die in a state of mortal sin will go straight to hell when they die whether they believe in it or not. This life only lasts a short while- the next life lasts forever. I do not want to spend it in hell- nor do I want anybody else to.

 

[Kirane]

solarwind23:

I don’t believe in Jesus anymore.

do you think it is appropriate for someone who does not believe in Catholicism to tell Catholics what they should or should not believe? Or would it be more appropriate for a person who rejects Catholicism but still wants to do some good to join another religious group such as the Unitarians for example.

 

[Deacon2006]

solarwind23:

Damned to hell?!

For what? For wanting to accept divorced and remarried Catholics etc.?

Since it is divine law, and that means Jesus said so, that if you are married in the eyes of the church then you are married forever till death of one or the other. The idea that a Christian could have two simultaneous spouses and be in communion is fundamentally a disordered thought. It is the substance of spriritual death that ulitmately leads to places not of eternal bliss.

Forgiveness is always available but to commend someone in their sin is wicked and trips up the little ones in most need of the Lord’s mercy.

God Bless

 

[Deacon2006]

solarwind23:

purely based on reason and morality rather than “infallibility”

Whose morality?

Since all moral law comes from God, when has God ever revealed to anyone that a Christain can contracept in marriage, sodomise their brother, murder the sick, or reject the authority of the church?

The only so called morality and reason that permits such a things is readily found among the selfish who make up their own relativistic boundaries. Any fool can say they are a critical thinker even those that have no knowledge of what they are talking about. The problem is when people confuse morality with their own sentimenatality that then becomes the basis of their so called reasoned arguements, Pity to them for they can do no end of spirtual harm to themsleves and others.

God Bless

 

[Deacon2006]

solarwind23:

The Church should too if it wants to retain any kind of following.

The Church is sustained by the Grace of God and mediated through the faithfulness of the flock, both the hiearchy and sense of fidelity of the laity. Moral compromises destroy faith they never build it up.

We have always lived in unfaithful times that is why God sustains the Church, for the love of sinners to find refuge and reconcialltion, the Church is not about validating disordered behavior instead it is a place of sanctification for those who freely choose to convert.

Thanks but no thanks. There has always been the sons and daughters of the devil trying to get us to betray the truth for popularity or misguided notion of compassion. The Church grows stronger when it resists the temptations of profane popularity and prays on its knees.

God Bless

 

[proud2bcatholic]

I’m thinking that I should send copies of “The Charitable Anathema,” by Dietrich von Hildebrand to the Canadian Bishops.

May they be anathema, and prayers that they repent of their dissent and reconcile with the Church.

 

[Mayo-man]

solarwind23:

Do you know what percentage of Catholics actually follow the Church in its teaching on birth control?

I had this number a few weeks ago, but my computer has hidden the stats from me at the moment. As I recall, a little more than 30% of the “catholics” in the pews agree with all the teachings on birth control and marriage. A sad state of confusion in the pews indeed. And, I expect it may get much worse before it gets better, but it will get better for the very reason you say. Read on…

solarwind23:

Last time I checked Catholics were divorcing at the same rate as regular folk.

Reliable stats on this are pretty hard to come by for me or for you, but the numbers do look better than you report for Catholics who actually attend mass weekly. Actually, about half of the divorced Catholics didn’t practice their faith very much at all, so why would we expect this group to do any better than society in general? But, here is what very few are told about unhappy marriages:

"When University of Chicago analysts looked at the National Survey of Family and Households, they found some interesting things. The survey measured both the personal and marital happiness of 5,232 married adults during the late 1980s. The same couples were reinterviewed in the mid-1990s. Some of the findings:

• Spouses in a really unhappy marriage tend to separate. But among those unhappy marriages in which the spouses stayed together, two out of three reported that their marriages were “happy” five years later."

It seems to me, Catholics who are considering divorce should also consider Winston Chrchill’s recommendation: “When you are going through Hell, keep going”.

If you are truly interested in some insight regarding this very serious problem, the attached link is a long but illuminating look inside Catholic divorce.
godspy.com/life/Breaking-Vows-When-Faithful-Catholics-Divorce-Tom-Hoopes.cfm

solarwind23:

Western society is becoming more and more secular, the only places where the Church is growing is the third world. Chances are once they get industrialized, once everyone gets the same access to information that the rest of us have they’ll start leaving too.

As far as surviving for 2000 years, well Roman Emperors and the censorship/threat of the Inquisition certainly helped. But now that people are free and reading all the “forbidden” literature they are rejecting the Church overwhelmingly.

Partner, this just isn’t true. Between 1990 and 2001 the Catholic Church in the USA [hardly a third world country] grew from 46 million to 50.8 million [up 11% - est. to include 24.5% of total US population].
adherents.com/rel_USA.html#families

solarwind23:

The Church will probably always be around, but if they keep at the rate they’re going it’ll be a group of “elite” celibate men out of touch with the rest of humanity.

Now, here you get to the important stuff and present what is essentail pretty well. The Catholic Church will always be around. Christ Himself has very clearly promised exactly this outcome. The leaders of orthodox Catholics have always been [and the good ones remain today] " a group of “elite” celibate men out of touch with the rest of humanity" in the sense of being “counter-cultural” - most especially in our own culture - a culture of immediate gratification and death.

Really, it’s not a numbers game. But we have been promised certain things, the Church will endure and the Church will not teach error on faith and morals. For me this is enough to bind, but I recognize I have this by faith alone. The real threat in America is that the Catholic Church will get “in step” with humanity [as the Canadian CRC seem to be recommending] and, thereby, become just another christian demonination.

I don’t see how any Catholic today could miss that it is very likely our Church [at least in America] may be much smaller in numbers in the future, but reflecting in ourselves, our priest and our bishops a truer commitment and fidelity to Christ. Still, I think it will be more than 12, which was enough in the beginning.

You must be young for you seem to have a wonderful “fire” in your posts. That is an admirable quality that is very much needed by the Church today. I’ll say a rosary for you this week that your prayer may be answered in a way you will hear, but I have to ask: If you don’t believe in Jesus Christ any more, why do you struggle so to set things right in His Church? Bless you for your interest. I know many Catholics who have considered it much less than you.

Jim B

“Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.” --St. Augustine

 

[ble]

My heart sunk when I read this article… it is kind of saying, “Let us do what we want, when we want it and how we want it.”

Opening the door to contraception would be opening the flood gate. Not a lot of people know that contraceptives (other than a condom) do automatic abortions. Instant murder.

Euthanasia? Kill those who are suffering. Instead of giving comfort to the sick, the elderly, and babies unborn with diagnosed diseases… lets get rid of them. If we allow Euthanasia, we are saying they are a burden, not worth our help. Go to a convalescent home and visit the elderly, many of them will brighten up by your visit, even if they are in pain there. Your presence there will tell them that there is someone in this world who still cares for them.

Just on these two points alone, I see no love at all.

Warmest regards,
Ben

 

[GWS]

Here’s CW News’ take on this:

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=42874

This is hugely embarrassing to every Catholic in this country.

I would be interested to see precisely how many priests, religious, etc. would claim to be represented by this bunch. If it’s as many as this group claims, then it’s time to declare Canada mission territory. A serious housecleaning is in order, and I cannot help thinking once again that the seminaries of Traditional orders are bursting at the seams with numerous individuals who might welcome a long-term posting to Canada.

 

[Brendan]

GWS:

I cannot help thinking once again that the seminaries of Traditional orders are bursting at the seams with numerous individuals who might welcome a long-term posting to Canada.

That one of the things the CRC objected to.

That, before “incardinating” ordained ministers coming from other countries and other cultures, we make the necessary efforts to give the people in our own milieu access to these ministries.

They don’t want ordained ministers from other countries or cultures coming in to do things like Weddings and Funerals, but would rather have local laity perform those functions.

They don’t want these new priests coming in.

And if they do come in, the need to be ‘indoctrinated’ first

1. That ordained ministers arriving from other countries and other cultures will receive orientation for pastoral ministry specific to the Canadian Church and its culture before practicing their ministry here (leadership, public speaking, work with women, etc.: cultural integration).

 

[Joe_Kelley]

See Mere Comments March 29.
Schism grows in Canada

Bishops have desire to maintain at least a facade of unity in the Church and an even deeper aversion to confrontation; their response to the letter so far has been muted . . …

But the Canadian bishops have been presented with a situation in which they cannot avoid publicly recognizing that the majority of religious disagree with Catholic doctrine and discipline.

 

[Catholic29]

So I wonder which bishops will side with the dissenting religious and form their own inclusive Canadian National Catholic Church? They may do their best to maintain a facade of unity with Rome, but ultimately ideological differences will have to be faced up to. If the Canadian bishops won’t rectify the situation, then its a matter of time before Cardinal William Levada and Benedict XVI become involved.

In any case we essentially have Protestants in Canada who in communion with Rome, yet are in doctrinal schism.

 

[GWS]

Catholic29:

If the Canadian bishops won’t rectify the situation, then its a matter of time before Cardinal William Levada and Benedict XVI become involved.

At which point, of course, all kinds of things are going to hit the fan. It will be necessary, of course, just not very pretty.

In any case we essentially have Protestants in Canada who in communion with Rome, yet are in doctrinal schism.

I think we should pray for every member of every order that claims to be represented by this bunch calling itself the CRC.

 

[Sirach14]

Religious orders complain about “blind obedience to directives issued by the vatican.”
canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=c5ef7e36-53a2-4207-b903-365b0c90d9eb&k=60366

 

[edbondy]

If we are Catholic, we are to listen and act on the word of God & to not deny him. The Catholic church is not a museum of saints but a hospital for sinners.( author unknown) If we deny him then he will deny us. and I for one will accept him to my dying breath.
To be a cafeteria Catholic is not for me. We must believe all that the church teaches and not try to rationalize our way around what is hard. Why are there 2/3 of Catholics that do not believe in Jesus actually in the Eucharist Body, Blood, Soul, & Divinity?
Ed Bondy

 

[CHCatholic]

WELCOME TO CANADIAN CATHOLICISM EVERYONE!
This wreaks of the Winnipeg Statement.
Its hard being in a country where, even the small amounts of religious are dissedent. Here’s my typical conversation at work:
Coworker: Oh so you’re a Catholic, me too!
Me: Cool! Dont you love Pope Benedict?
Coworker: NO! Too many rules, I just ignore him
Me: But you said you were Catholic…
Coworker: I am, but I dont follow anything, you don’t need to to be Catholic
Me:

Now if someone asks if I’m Catholic I say “Yes, but the real kind, like the Pope is” lol

Now, I have no problem with people who don’t fully understand doctrine. Nor do I have a problem with people who sin, as we all do, and while someone may proclaim something to be a wrong, they may go and do it themselves. we’re all sinners.

But what I do have a problem with is dissent. If you don’t like it, leave, and dont come back until you’re willing to obey. Theres no ball and chain forcing you to be Catholic, you can leave whenever the heck you want.

Gah
I pray Cardinal Ouellet steps up, I know he is quite an orthodox man and in Benedict’s inner circles.