Organizations

[ess1113a]

Just was talking to another parishoner at breakfast and this question came up:

How should the parish react if a parishoner drives up in a vehicle with any of the following stickers or advertisements on it:

KKK
White Supremecy
Pro-Choice
Support Abortion
Pro Planned Parenthood
Neo-Nazi member
White Aryan Resistance
Anti-Jewish organization

I understand the right to free speech but would members of these organizations still be allowed to take Holy Communion?

Should the parish priest call them up and convince them to stay away from the Church or stay away from the sacraments?

Would it be ok to leave anonymous notes on their car or truck?

If you knew the owner of the vehicle would it be ok to call them up anonymously and tell then that they arent Catholic repeatedly and at all hours?

If their spouse worked for the diocese, would it be ok to actively seek to have her employment terminated? Assuming that she was not a member also.

Just a random question but are these groups addressed by the Holy See as being prohibited? I have looked under Canon Law and it just addressed groups that actively conspire against the Holy Catholic Church. I didnt see where it applied to groups that conspire against the nation, or advocate the violent overthrow of a democratically elected government?

Of course I will constantly be praying for them to transform and enjoy the full fellowship of the Church but what other actions woudl be permissable or advisable?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Would it be ok to leave anonymous notes on their car or truck?

Why be annonymous?

If you knew the owner of the vehicle would it be ok to call them up anonymously and tell then that they arent Catholic repeatedly and at all hours?

That actually crosses into grounds of harassment and may warrant legal action. Don’t do that.

Of course I will constantly be praying for them to transform and enjoy the full fellowship of the Church but what other actions should I take?

Try conversation.

 

[ess1113a]

But could they still receive the sacraments? Is there a Church position officially?
I think it would be great if there was a Vatican decree or edict upon these organizations.

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

The most appropriate response is talking to the driver face to face. Just be sure to not be confrontational; do not accuse them of evil and not being Catholic because of it. You could possibly (and very carefully) suggest that Jesus’ prime commandment “Love on another as I have loved you” is not very compatible with the actions of those groups.

Whether they are eating & drinking their condemnation is an issue that you should not be concerned about.

 

[ess1113a]

Surely their membership would render them ineligible for Holy Communion. I mean outright hatred as exists in their organizations would render them unworthy of the sacraments or it should make then unworthy.

Without an official stance from the Holy See, it seems like this person could theoretically wear KKK hood into mass and it would be acceptable.

 

[Maryann_C]

I think at first you have to establish if the person driving the car to Church actually owns it.

Next .As others have said the first approach, as we are instructed in scripture , is to speak to your ‘brother or sister’ privately and then if they do not see the error to bring in someone else and then if they still do not see the error to bring it to the Parish priest’s attention.

As for the point that the person’s spouse is on a pastoral council. Unless it can be proven that the spouse themselves holds the views of any of these organization and that it is openly in opposition to church teaching- pro -choice for example- you can not say that the sins of one can be attributed to the sins of the other. BUT I do think that a pastor could speak to the spouse on the council charitably ,asking if it were possible to remove the stickers from the vehicle since they bring ‘scandal’ to the spouse who is on the council and there by in a way to the Parish.

We did have a council member asked to step down by our pastor because their actions were contrary to Church teaching and because of their being on the council it was indirectly bringing scandal to the Parish BUT we all have to remember that we are all sinners in need of God’s mercy and the first and best place to find that ought to be at your local Parish where you attend mass.

 

[ess1113a]

I think at first you have to establish if the person driving the car to Church actually owns it.

Next .As others have said the first approach, as we are instructed in scripture , is to speak to your ‘brother or sister’ privately and then if they do not see the error to bring in someone else and then if they still do not see the error to bring it to the Parish priest’s attention.

As for the point that the person’s spouse is on a pastoral council. Unless it can be proven that the spouse themselves holds the views of any of these organization and that it is openly in opposition to church teaching- pro -choice for example- you can not say that the sins of one can be attributed to the sins of the other. BUT I do think that a pastor could speak to the spouse on the council charitably ,asking if it were possible to remove the stickers from the vehicle since they bring ‘scandal’ to the spouse who is on the council and there by in a way to the Parish.

We did have a council member asked to step down by our pastor because their actions were contrary to Church teaching and because of their being on the council it was indirectly bringing scandal to the Parish BUT we all have to remember that we are all sinners in need of God’s mercy and the first and best place to find that ought to be at your local Parish where you attend mass.

I think you are very correct Mary Ann and thats the way I was leaning as well. I guess I feel terrible that this theoretical person could receive the sacraments while holding this particular destructive viewpoint.

 

[Maryann_C]

The most appropriate response is talking to the driver face to face. Just be sure to not be confrontational; do not accuse them of evil and not being Catholic because of it. You could possibly (and very carefully) suggest that Jesus’ prime commandment “Love on another as I have loved you” is not very compatible with the actions of those groups.

Whether they are eating & drinking their condemnation is an issue that you should not be concerned about.

Whereas I agree with your first sentence your next 2 are incompatible. One moment you are preaching that the OP show the vehicle drive that their support of this group as shown by the sticker promoting it ,is not compatible with the mercy of God and Christian teaching and you follow that up by essentially saying the OP should not be concerned about the eternal salvation of a fellow parishioners soul!
We all called to correct the sinner as equally as we are called to ‘judge not lest you be judged’ but first and foremost if we are going to love as Jesus loved us then we need to heel the sick ( mind ,body and spirit) and forgive so that our sins will be forgiven “as we forgive those who trespass against us”. The operative word being AS.

 

[Rainaldo]

What would be the point? To change their minds? If they go to the trouble of defacing the paint on their cars with bumper stickers, then they are probably not susceptible to questioning their own beliefs, because it takes a certain amount of deep-seated conviction that a position is right, before you proclaim it to the world served up alongside your exhaust fumes.

There are extremely few Catholics involved with American-style racist hate groups, because those groups tend to be anti-Catholic in the first place.

As for the pro-abortion stickers, why not ask the owner of the car how belching out greenhouse gases leaves the planet with a “choice”?

 

[ess1113a]

What would be the point? To change their minds? If they go to the trouble of defacing the paint on their cars with bumper stickers, then they are probably not susceptible to questioning their own beliefs, because it takes a certain amount of deep-seated conviction that a position is right, before you proclaim it to the world served up alongside your exhaust fumes.

There are extremely few Catholics involved with American-style racist hate groups, because those groups tend to be anti-Catholic in the first place.

As for the pro-abortion stickers, why not ask the owner of the car how belching out greenhouse gases leaves the planet with a “choice”?

I am not sure what the statistics are with Catholic members in hate groups but I am sure there are probably some albeit few in number.
Pro-Choice is far more common. Now I am not sure as the relevancy of defacing the paint on a vehicle but there are plenty of political stickers on vehicle bumpers (chrome not paint if that makes it easier for you to grasp) in my parish parking lot.

I guess I could complicate matters since a pro-choice sticker on a Prius is pretty common where I am located; so what action would be appropriate or what would be expected from me as a parishoner?

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center the following groups are extremist hate groups that use Catholic idealogy:

Alliance for Catholic Tradition
Catholic Apologetics International Publishing, Inc
Catholic Counterpoint
Catholic Family News/Catholic Family Ministries, Inc
Culture Wars (group)/Fidelity Press
The Fatima Crusader/International Fatima Rosary Crusade
IHM Media
IHS Press
In the Spirit of Chartres Committee
Legion of St. Louis
Most Holy Family Monastery
OMNI Christian Book Club
The Remnant/The Remnant Press
Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary
St. Joseph Forum
St. Michael’s Parish/Mount St. Michael
Tradition in Action

I presume 100% of these members are Catholic and they belong to a recognized hate groups.
As always we pray for them to turn their beliefs to something more productive.

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

Whereas I agree with your first sentence your next 2 are incompatible. One moment you are preaching that the OP show the vehicle drive that their support of this group as shown by the sticker promoting it ,is not compatible with the mercy of God and Christian teaching and you follow that up by essentially saying the OP should not be concerned about the eternal salvation of a fellow parishioners soul!

Actually, it works rather well together. If you go and discuss with them the un-Christian nature of their stickers, you have done you duty to call to mind the sins of others. It is, however, not your duty to judge others’ worthiness to receive Holy Communion (“rash judgement” comes to mind).

 

[Rainaldo]

Find out for yourself just how “green” a Prius really is. Take into account what is involved in making one - not just of the car as a whole, but especially the batteries that distinguish it from other conventional automobiles.

I’ll let someone else explain the misunderstanding about Catholic in hate groups.

 

[Maryann_C]

Actually, it works rather well together. If you go and discuss with them the un-Christian nature of their stickers, you have done you duty to call to mind the sins of others. It is, however, not your duty to judge others’ worthiness to receive Holy Communion (“rash judgement” comes to mind).

This is what I was referring to in your post “Whether they are eating & drinking their condemnation is an issue that you should not be concerned about.”
There is a difference in being concerned about weather or not someone is "eating & drinking their condemnation" we are not Christians if we are not concerned about this and allow that to go on without somehow doing something about it ,and “judging others’ worthiness” . none of us are worthy but we are all called not to let our fellow brother or sister in Christ , stumble. I think the ‘Judge not’ has been taken out of context these days and IMHO has become the mantra of relativism.

 

[ess1113]

Thank you all for your replies.
I think all the replies were intelligent and well spoken and I appreciate the insight.

I dont know anyone particular that fits into the category but there is a situation similar with a parishoner and the pro-choice stickers that they have publicly displayed. I have always been curious how they attend mass and take communion knowing that they are in direct violation of right to life positions that the Holy Catholic Church has always subscribed to.

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

This is what I was referring to in your post “Whether they are eating & drinking their condemnation is an issue that you should not be concerned about.”
There is a difference in being concerned about weather or not someone is "eating & drinking their condemnation" we are not Christians if we are not concerned about this and allow that to go on without somehow doing something about it ,and “judging others’ worthiness” . none of us are worthy but we are all called not to let our fellow brother or sister in Christ , stumble. I think the ‘Judge not’ has been taken out of context these days and IMHO has become the mantra of relativism.

It is our duty to call to mind publicly known sins (i.e., displaying a pro-life sticker on a car). It is not our duty to determine if such a person should or should not receive Holy Communion.

Also, the phrase “rash judgment” is not related moral relativism, it means

Unquestioning conviction about another person’s bad conduct without adequate grounds for the judgment. The sinfulness of rash judgment lies in the hasty imprudence with which the critical appraisal is made and in the loss of reputation that a peson suffers in the eyes of the one who judges adversely.

Thus, it is actually a sin to rashly judge someone as unworthy to receive Holy Communion! All you can do, morally, is inform them of the Church’s stance on the particular issue the bumper sticker promotes.

 

[FurtherSuntime]

I think you are very correct Mary Ann and thats the way I was leaning as well. I guess I feel terrible that this theoretical person could receive the sacraments while holding this particular destructive viewpoint.

Is this really just a theoretical idea? A hypothetical thing?

It seems very odd to think of basically. For example:

What should we do sargeant if one of the boys comes into work with a sticker on the car that says

Move aside please, I just robbed a bank.
Wave for the best drug deal in town.
Desperate for doe? follow me.

I would defin first think it was a new car, borrowed car, someone put it there without knowledge. If you approach and get to talking, you wouldn’t even have to bring it up…the behavior if your onto that would show.Its just such a conflicting idea.

 

[Qoeleth]

A person, if supporting a pro-abortion organisation, could be thought of as assisting/co-operating in abortion, and therefore would be out of communion. However, they could also argue they are not supporting abortion, but rather ‘choice’ (I don’t agree with that interpretation, but it could be argued).

As for racist organisations, I don’t see how that could justify excluding a person from communion (unless, of course, they were actually advocating murder or torture or something).

 

[ess1113a]

I guess I am perplexed, what hasnt the Holy See issued some guidelines for members of recognized extremist groups and the Holy Sacraments? I even searched the USCCB website and found no guidance.

I dont think we can find a Catholic that sees any good in a member of the White Supremecy Groups or other like minded organizations, but they are welcome to stand next to me at mass and receive the Holy Eucharist.

The Church has spent an inordinate amount of time over the years excluding certain other groups from the sacraments but when a member of the Church accepts extremist views and doctrines then they are considered “acceptable” in the Church. I think killing, advocating violence and the violent overthrow of a democratically elected government to be unacceptable

Do we have our priorities right?.

 

[ess1113a]

Is this really just a theoretical idea? A hypothetical thing?

It seems very odd to think of basically. For example:

What should we do sargeant if one of the boys comes into work with a sticker on the car that says

Move aside please, I just robbed a bank.
Wave for the best drug deal in town.
Desperate for doe? follow me.

I would defin first think it was a new car, borrowed car, someone put it there without knowledge. If you approach and get to talking, you wouldn’t even have to bring it up…the behavior if your onto that would show.Its just such a conflicting idea.

I dont follow what you are saying.

 

[ess1113]

Following up on the thread and combining it with another:

I think we can agree (or at least become silent on this issue) that if a person belongs to an extremist group or a pro choice group then that person can legitimately receive the sacraments and we may (or may not) remind him of the error of his ways.

A person that is a Freemason cannot receive the sacrament (by decree from the Holy See).

Why arent we applying the same standards? I personally dont see why the Freemason cannot receive the Eucharist but a member of a hate group seems to be totally entitled to it.

I can see the Holy See not getting involved in every little groups right to exist but the USCCB hasnt even issued a policy statement on the issue.

Just wondering why.