orgins of witchcraft

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reborn_pagan

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what do you think when you hear witchcraft?
black hooded crones flying on broom sticks praying and corrupting children and other inocents… or is it darker with bloodoaths and black masses with human and animal sacrifices??

time for the origin of the word, the true origin

now the reason why we all used to fear this word is because of the people who were charged of witchcraft, and lies,rumors have tainted this name for along time…

the word witch has evolved from the original word wice (meaning clan) from here we can see the word WITCH is part of some sort of family with relgious overtone. in other words it speaks of a defent relgious understanding.

at the 20th centery an anthroplogist started looking into the origins of witchcraft and found that much of the practices of witches survived by becoming part of the church, or written off as simple pesentry, or completley intact somehow…

in the eyes of all chirstians if they didn’t woship god, they were automaticly placed as devil worshipers because of the lack of understanding and the fear of it…

in the salem witch-trials, is a prime example of this when a couple of girls claimed they were bieng possesd because something was wrong with them, and automatically if it can’t be explained its automatically the devil.

wicca is a clergy relgion, which is why there is no “priest” that is greater than a student…

and the “ten commandments” of wicca is “an ye harm none do what ye will” which is very simple to understand, and the reason why we fallow this is because as wiccans we bealive that whatever you do will come back to you 3x

welp thats my 2 cents…kittychorus if you have anything else to add go ahead
 
kellie said:
“Bewitched” isn’t real ??? :eek:
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There was DEFINITELY something going on with “Bewitched” - ever notice how Dick Sargeant replaced Dick York and Sam COULDN’T TELL THE DIFFERENCE??? :hmmm:
 
Paganus said:
There was DEFINITELY something going on with “Bewitched” - ever notice how Dick Sargeant replaced Dick York and Sam COULDN’T TELL THE DIFFERENCE??? :hmmm:
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:rotfl:

It was nice though that they named their 2nd child Adam.
 
You know what really is the scary part?

MRS KRAVITZ FAILED TO RECOGNIZE THE HUSBAND CHANGEOUT. SHE NORMALLY DOES NOT MISS A DICK…OOPS LICK.
 
JoeyWarren said:
You know what really is the scary part?

MRS KRAVITZ FAILED TO RECOGNIZE THE HUSBAND CHANGEOUT. SHE NORMALLY DOES NOT MISS A DICK…OOPS LICK.
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She failed to notice the husband changeout? I would say Mr. Kravitz failed to notice that his wife changed out as well. 😛
 
JoeyWarren said:
There were two Mrs Kravitz as well? I did not know that!
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Yes. I think the actress who played the first Mrs. Kravitz passed away and Mr. Kravitz’s sister filled in for a time while they got a new actress to play Mrs. Kravitz.
 
reborn_pagan said:
and the “ten commandments” of wicca is “an ye harm none do what ye will” which is very simple to understand, and the reason why we fallow this is because as wiccans we bealive that whatever you do will come back to you 3x
Click to expand...
No matter how you dress it up, witchcraft is an offence to God who made us in His image. Witchcraft is evil because it completely opposes the will of God. According to the wiccan rede, the following things are OK:-
  • all forms sexual perversion (I don’t have to name them)
  • adultery (as long as partner doesn’t find out), fornication
  • Cheating on tax payments
  • Self mutilation (and suicide?)
  • Viewing hard-core porn, paedophilic porn, snuff movies
  • Taking hard drugs, getting blind drunk.
  • Contraception, abortion.
Please correct me if I’m wrong on this.

God bless,
Noel.
 
LRThunder said:
She failed to notice the husband changeout? I would say Mr. Kravitz failed to notice that his wife changed out as well. 😛
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Not only that, but Darren’s boss didn’t even realize that he was a different guy!

I smell a conspiracy!

😃
 
nkelly said:
No matter how you dress it up, witchcraft is an offence to God who made us in His image. Witchcraft is evil because it completely opposes the will of God. According to the wiccan rede, the following things are OK:-
  • all forms sexual perversion (I don’t have to name them)
  • adultery (as long as partner doesn’t find out), fornication
  • Cheating on tax payments
  • Self mutilation (and suicide?)
  • Viewing hard-core porn, paedophilic porn, snuff movies
  • Taking hard drugs, getting blind drunk.
  • Contraception, abortion.
Please correct me if I’m wrong on this.

God bless,
Noel.
Click to expand...
Well, I need to correct you! Think for a moment on the 10 comandments and on the phrase “And it harm none”. When you boil down the 10 comandments, they are detailing ways in which we harm ourselves and each other. The things you mentioned above have definite harmful consequences- on the emotional, physical, personal, family and society.

I do understand that it is very easy to group the hundreds of religions and practices that are not of the “major” religions together, because growing up in a protestant home I had only heard ‘pagan’ used as a bad scary word. Same with witch, occult, and several other words I don’t bother trying to use because of the bad connotations they have- however undeserved. I did not learn the difference between Santanism and Pagan until I went looking for it myself.
  • all forms sexual perversion (I don’t have to name them)
    I don’t think that I should go into this one too deeply, but the idea that the sex life of a married couple is any different in one religion than another is a very ignorant statment. It smacks of the propaganda put forth by Rome when they took the name of Christ and killed and conquered by it throughout Europe.
  • adultery (as long as partner doesn’t find out), fornication
    NO! This is just ascribing bad traits of people to a religion. If someone is doing this, they cannot say they are harming no one! They are harming their partner! Sex has the same emotional consequences in any religion. While we may not choose to be the ones to condemn each other, allowing instead the consequences of anothers actions to teach them unless asked for advice… that doesn’t mean we condone the harmful action.
  • Cheating on tax payments
    Hurts society as a whole. Where do you even get this connection??
  • Self mutilation (and suicide?)
    Harm none… that includes self.
  • Viewing hard-core porn, paedophilic porn, snuff movies
    See notes for adultery and sexual perversion. I really do wonder why the association of strange and harmful sex is so strong. My mother asked me when I first told her if I had sex with dead bodies. EWWWWW! I don’t even know where these associations come from.
  • Taking hard drugs, getting blind drunk.
    Once again- harm none. Unless you consider having no teeth (meth) or Liver (hard drinking) positive things. I certainly don’t. These things are VERY harmful. There are Native American ceremonies that include peyote, and I have hear of marijuana use in controlled settings- but these are not from Wicca.
  • Contraception, abortion.
    Contraception is a personal choice. It is the Roman Catholic interpretation that says not to, but are there any other sects of Christianity that agree? It is not said in the Bible that you shouldn’t, and the Pope’s decree that it is wrong IS an interpretation. If you give authority to your Pope, than you should do what he says. But I don’t agree with judging others based on that.
Abortion is as controversial a subject among Wiccans and Pagans as it is everywhere else. The question is when does life begin. I personally agree that it begins at conception, but I have heard others argue that it does not begin until the infusion of blood into the fetus’ body or until the ‘quickening’ when the mother first becomes aware of movement (which I believe was at one point the church’s stance). I have heard several other arguments as to when life begins. If it begins at conception- then it is murder. Even if it doesn’t, there is a lot of emotional pain for someone who has an abortion.

To sum up- these statements show an ignorance of what Wicca and Paganism actually are. I am offended not by you in particular, but by knowing that these ideas are still out there and attached to what I hold sacred. That there are deviants that do these things I can’t deny- but there are deviants in every religion. Do all priests sodomize their altar boys? Do all Catholics bomb abortion clinics? NO! And the church would not support these actions in any way- no matter how the person calls the name of Christ while doing them.

I think I will start another thread entirely about why it would be considered evil by the Christian church… I think in general people should learn about something before they condemn it. The learning will not taint you- only give you more effective tools for witnessing to them with an understanding and respectful attitude. Hmmm. another thread-- witnessing and how it’s percieved from the outside…
 
Yeah- we do. I hope some people will read this and start to think… hmmm, maybe we don’t know what they are, and then start to learn. I grew up with a lot of stories about how Christians have been and are persecuted. This kind of lack of thinking and judging is a form of persecution, and they don’t even know they are doing it- because they keep getting fed lies about what other people really are and do.

The situation makes me angry- but the ones to blame are long dead.
 
kittychorus said:
Yeah- we do. I hope some people will read this and start to think… hmmm, maybe we don’t know what they are, and then start to learn. I grew up with a lot of stories about how Christians have been and are persecuted. This kind of lack of thinking and judging is a form of persecution, and they don’t even know they are doing it- because they keep getting fed lies about what other people really are and do.

The situation makes me angry- but the ones to blame are long dead.
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well as my dad always said, its easier talking to a wall…and yes some christians do get persecuted, but they dont have there children taken from them like this one pagan couple has…and that was last year
 
on sex between married couples etc.
propaganda put forth by Rome when they took the name of Christ and killed and conquered by it throughout Europe.
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Propaganda? Right here is an example of you, kitty, apparently swallowing some ‘propaganda’ from somebody else. (And don’t start on ‘the burning times’–now there is real propaganda for you). Sodomy, bestiality, adultery etc. were condemned historically, not just by ‘Rome’ from a certain time period. Yes, even among early societies and pagans. And nice touch to attempt to reduce anything a Catholic says not just to 'blindly following Rome" but also to completely denigrate anything Rome said by claiming it not only coopted Christ’s name but also did unspeakable evil thereafter. Sheesh.

on contraception/abortion
It is the Roman Catholic interpretation that says not to, but are there any other sects of Christianity that agree? It is not said in the Bible that you shouldn’t, and the Pope’s decree that it is wrong IS an interpretation. If you give authority to your Pope, than you should do what he says. But I don’t agree with judging others based on that.
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Correction. All Christian Churches were unanimously against contraception until 1930. That is less than 100 years ago, kitty. It is not ‘the Roman Catholic interpretation’ which condemns contraception but a ‘universal interpretation’. And some nonCatholic Christians follow this as well. Even pagans and witches did not originally practice contraception; life was seen as a great joy and children were welcomed in the earliest societies and are still welcome today. I really think you should read more ‘unbiased’ and ‘unrevised’ history.

The ‘witches’ of today are not ‘connected’ with the so-called ‘witches’ of the Middle ages, or the ‘wise’ Druids, or even the earliest ‘wise women’ of prehistory. Those people and groups evolved or were self-limiting. “Witches” of today are part of a new-age group which thinks, based on ‘books’, that they are part of those ‘old times’. Like a person in the “Society for Creative Anachronism”, you carefully select a character for yourself, surround yourself with contemporarily made ‘old time’ costumes and trappings, and 'play a part.

I was ‘there’ in the 70s when all these new ‘pagan’ and ‘witchcraft’ books started appearing. I read them then; I read them now. They are carefully crafted (hah) to achieve just exactly the results I see in those who call themselves pagans and witches today–a blindness which thinks it sees everything ‘new’, a skepticism about everything but the pseudo beliefs they themselves embrace. . .and the people responsible for this are not, sadly, ‘long dead.’

You have my pity and sympathy because I see so clearly how people with a real thirst to do good and a ‘disenchantment’ (hah) with ‘society’ really think that movements like this are real ways to ‘do good’. But it’s the same old schitck. . .first, make people ‘reject’ one way for being hateful, then reinculcate in them the idea that their own rejection and hate for those others are ‘good things’.

I don’t have anything against any individual pagan, witch, atheist, etc. as people. I do reject anything that a given person might SAY which is wrong or hateful–and in that, I think you would yourselves agree with me.
 
kittychorus said:
Well, I need to correct you! Think for a moment on the 10 comandments and on the phrase “And it harm none”. When you boil down the 10 comandments, they are detailing ways in which we harm ourselves and each other. The things you mentioned above have definite harmful consequences- on the emotional, physical, personal, family and society.

I do understand that it is very easy to group the hundreds of religions and practices that are not of the “major” religions together, because growing up in a protestant home I had only heard ‘pagan’ used as a bad scary word. Same with witch, occult, and several other words I don’t bother trying to use because of the bad connotations they have- however undeserved. I did not learn the difference between Santanism and Pagan until I went looking for it myself.
  • all forms sexual perversion (I don’t have to name them)
    I don’t think that I should go into this one too deeply, but the idea that the sex life of a married couple is any different in one religion than another is a very ignorant statment. It smacks of the propaganda put forth by Rome when they took the name of Christ and killed and conquered by it throughout Europe.
  • adultery (as long as partner doesn’t find out), fornication
    NO! This is just ascribing bad traits of people to a religion. If someone is doing this, they cannot say they are harming no one! They are harming their partner! Sex has the same emotional consequences in any religion. While we may not choose to be the ones to condemn each other, allowing instead the consequences of anothers actions to teach them unless asked for advice… that doesn’t mean we condone the harmful action.
  • Cheating on tax payments
    Hurts society as a whole. Where do you even get this connection??
  • Self mutilation (and suicide?)
    Harm none… that includes self.
  • Viewing hard-core porn, paedophilic porn, snuff movies
    See notes for adultery and sexual perversion. I really do wonder why the association of strange and harmful sex is so strong. My mother asked me when I first told her if I had sex with dead bodies. EWWWWW! I don’t even know where these associations come from.
  • Taking hard drugs, getting blind drunk.
    Once again- harm none. Unless you consider having no teeth (meth) or Liver (hard drinking) positive things. I certainly don’t. These things are VERY harmful. There are Native American ceremonies that include peyote, and I have hear of marijuana use in controlled settings- but these are not from Wicca.
  • Contraception, abortion.
    Contraception is a personal choice. It is the Roman Catholic interpretation that says not to, but are there any other sects of Christianity that agree? It is not said in the Bible that you shouldn’t, and the Pope’s decree that it is wrong IS an interpretation. If you give authority to your Pope, than you should do what he says. But I don’t agree with judging others based on that.
Abortion is as controversial a subject among Wiccans and Pagans as it is everywhere else. The question is when does life begin. I personally agree that it begins at conception, but I have heard others argue that it does not begin until the infusion of blood into the fetus’ body or until the ‘quickening’ when the mother first becomes aware of movement (which I believe was at one point the church’s stance). I have heard several other arguments as to when life begins. If it begins at conception- then it is murder. Even if it doesn’t, there is a lot of emotional pain for someone who has an abortion.

To sum up- these statements show an ignorance of what Wicca and Paganism actually are. I am offended not by you in particular, but by knowing that these ideas are still out there and attached to what I hold sacred. That there are deviants that do these things I can’t deny- but there are deviants in every religion. Do all priests sodomize their altar boys? Do all Catholics bomb abortion clinics? NO! And the church would not support these actions in any way- no matter how the person calls the name of Christ while doing them.

I think I will start another thread entirely about why it would be considered evil by the Christian church… I think in general people should learn about something before they condemn it. The learning will not taint you- only give you more effective tools for witnessing to them with an understanding and respectful attitude. Hmmm. another thread-- witnessing and how it’s percieved from the outside…
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KittyChorus, I admit my post was probably over the top. Please accept my appologies.

I thought the wiccan rede meant “do whatever you like as long as it harms no one else”. Sorry, I didn’t realize this includes oneself.

The question is what do you consider harmful to yourself? Isn’t this a bit subjective? If you don’t believe something is harmful to oneself, then it’s OK, isn’t it? Let me revise my list so.

Do you think these acts are harmful to oneself? :-
  • consensual fornication
  • consensual gay sex
  • viewing pornography (with or without a partner in your life)
  • masturbation
  • fantasizing about another person’s spouse.
Regards,
Noel.
 
reborn_pagan said:
the word witch has evolved from the original word wice (meaning clan) from here we can see the word WITCH is part of some sort of family with relgious overtone. in other words it speaks of a defent relgious understanding.
Click to expand...
But of course your own more sensible writers admit that your modern movement has absolutely no historical connection to past “witchcraft,” and in fact there is no evidence that there ever was a religion called “witchcraft.”

Were some of the things condemned as “witchcraft” survivals of pre-Christian practices? Absolutely.
in the eyes of all chirstians if they didn’t woship god, they were automaticly placed as devil worshipers because of the lack of understanding and the fear of it…
Click to expand...
Then why did the concept of witches as devil-worshippers not become dominant until the Renaissance? Why did the medieval Church insist (until quite late) that witches had no power whatever and that belief in witchcraft was ignorant superstition? Why have researchers on the history of witch trials found that generally the starting point was a genuine belief among village people that their neighbors might be using magical powers to harm them (a belief that had been traditionally rejected by the Church and that itself was one of the pre-Christian “survivals”)? (Starting with the end of the Middle Ages, the Church did begin to take these beliefs more seriously and link them up with the idea of a vast satanic conspiracy, and *this *is what produced the atrocities of the early modern period.)
in the salem witch-trials, is a prime example of this when a couple of girls claimed they were bieng possesd because something was wrong with them, and automatically if it can’t be explained its automatically the devil.
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No. Your account is based on contempt and a failure even to try to understand the cultural attitudes of the past. People did not assume that anything that couldn’t be explained was automatically of the devil. They ran such things through various tests designed to determine what it might be. I’m not claiming that this process was reliable, only that there was a genuine process of attempted reflection and discernment going on. Read Cotton Mather’s *Wonders of the Invisible World *if you don’t believe me.
and the “ten commandments” of wicca is “an ye harm none do what ye will” which is very simple to understand, and the reason why we fallow this is because as wiccans we bealive that whatever you do will come back to you 3x
Click to expand...
Any evidence of this belief as a religious principle of something called “witchcraft” (or related in any way to modern witchcraft) before the 20th century?

Edwin
 
But of course your own more sensible writers admit that your modern movement has absolutely no historical connection to past “witchcraft,” and in fact there is no evidence that there ever was a religion called "witchcraft."

Edwin is absolutely right. I refer any interested parties to Ronald Hutton’s “Triumph of the Moon.” Just to clarify, I do not consider that Wicca’s youth makes it an invalid religion. Christianity was also once as young. However, it is has often been a common practice for people to claim connections with antiquity to bolster the credibility of something new. Even in the Classical world, cities would claim to be founded by great heroes of antiquity.

**Were some of the things condemned as “witchcraft” survivals of pre-Christian practices? Absolutely. **

There are also are many practices in modern Neopagan religions, including Wicca, that had their origins in the medieval or later Christian Church.

**Then why did the concept of witches as devil-worshippers not become dominant until the Renaissance? Why did the medieval Church insist (until quite late) that witches had no power whatever and that belief in witchcraft was ignorant superstition? Why have researchers on the history of witch trials found that generally the starting point was a genuine belief among village people that their neighbors might be using magical powers to harm them (a belief that had been traditionally rejected by the Church and that itself was one of the pre-Christian “survivals”)? (Starting with the end of the Middle Ages, the Church did begin to take these beliefs more seriously and link them up with the idea of a vast satanic conspiracy, and this is what produced the atrocities of the early modern period.)

Jenny Gibbons, who has a masters in medieval history with a minor in The Great Hunt did a wonderful article on recent scholarship about the witch trials. I highly recommend it.

chass.colostate-pueblo.edu/natrel/pom/old/POM5a1.html (btw the link is to an article from The Pomegranate, a peer-reviewed journal of Pagan studies that some might find of interest. We have.)

Any evidence of this belief as a religious principle of something called “witchcraft” (or related in any way to modern witchcraft) before the 20th century?

Not to my knowledge. It is always helpful to have as accurate an understandings of one’s history as possible.
 
reborn_pagan said:
what do you think when you hear witchcraft?
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What I think of? People grossly mislead into following a dangerous path. People looking for an antithesis of Christianity, something counter cultural to rebel against the norm. People looking for spiritually yet want to choose to do “what they will” as opposed to God’s will. And for young people especially something that makes them feel different, something that raises eyebrows, something that makes them feel set apart from average society -a little bit of shock value.

And yes I’ve known a few wiccans in my lifetime. Generally nice people but the ones I knew came from troubled backgrounds and were looking to fill a void in their lives without having to conform to Christian morality.
 
rayne89 said:
What I think of? People grossly mislead into following a dangerous path. People looking for an antithesis of Christianity, something counter cultural to rebel against the norm. People looking for spiritually yet want to choose to do “what they will” as opposed to God’s will. And for young people especially something that makes them feel different, something that raises eyebrows, something that makes them feel set apart from average society -a little bit of shock value.

And yes I’ve known a few wiccans in my lifetime. Generally nice people but the ones I knew came from troubled backgrounds and were looking to fill a void in their lives without having to conform to Christian morality.
Click to expand...
🙂 this one made me smile reading it. Now why is it that everytime someone sees a stupid teenager goth,emo, or whatever they think everysingle wiccan is like that (judge not lest ye be judged? ) and honestly, im an indivisualist i bealive that you dont have to stick out like a sore thumb to be diffrent than the norm. if you ever get to see me in real life you wouldnt even think of me as a wiccan or pagan for that matter.

and yes i’ve seen some of those wiccans who have bad childhoods and looked for something, but im not one of those
i have a great family (lil closed minded though) im happy,i have a girl-friend who i love with all my heart, so yeah there is no void to feel…its just the path that i chose to take
 
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