orgins of witchcraft

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what do you think when you hear witchcraft?
For me it is simply a form of superstition with varying degrees of harm to others including one’s self
in the salem witch-trials, is a prime example of this when a couple of girls claimed they were bieng possesd because something was wrong with them, and automatically if it can’t be explained its automatically the devil.
You should think yourself special. Do not think the devil bothers with mere mortals unless they are very significant ones’ Christ for example. More likely, ordinary folk are troubled by simpler demons, satan more likely is behind corrupting Nations to cause wars. One mere mortal is of no consequence to him. He wants millions.
wicca is a clergy relgion, which is why there is no “priest” that is greater than a student…
So too with Catholicism. The laity are the greatest of all. The priest is their servant, the bishop another servant until ultimately you get to the servant of the servants: the Pope himself! 👍
 
what do you think when you hear witchcraft?
black hooded crones flying on broom sticks praying and corrupting children and other inocents… or is it darker with bloodoaths and black masses with human and animal sacrifices??

time for the origin of the word, the true origin

now the reason why we all used to fear this word is because of the people who were charged of witchcraft, and lies,rumors have tainted this name for along time…

the word witch has evolved from the original word wice (meaning clan) from here we can see the word WITCH is part of some sort of family with relgious overtone. in other words it speaks of a defent relgious understanding.

at the 20th centery an anthroplogist started looking into the origins of witchcraft and found that much of the practices of witches survived by becoming part of the church, or written off as simple pesentry, or completley intact somehow…

in the eyes of all chirstians if they didn’t woship god, they were automaticly placed as devil worshipers because of the lack of understanding and the fear of it…

in the salem witch-trials, is a prime example of this when a couple of girls claimed they were bieng possesd because something was wrong with them, and automatically if it can’t be explained its automatically the devil.

wicca is a clergy relgion, which is why there is no “priest” that is greater than a student…

and the “ten commandments” of wicca is “an ye harm none do what ye will” which is very simple to understand, and the reason why we fallow this is because as wiccans we bealive that whatever you do will come back to you 3x

welp thats my 2 cents…kittychorus if you have anything else to add go ahead
In my experience, witchcraft started with the Chaldeans, what with the tower of Babel, which was actually something similar to a ziggurat, a ancient observatory/temple.

Anyways, God himself says “suffer not the sorcerer to live” and that such shall not enter the gates of heaven.

And the greek work for sorcery is from where we get pharmacy, as drugs and such were used for the sorcerers to get their “visions”

Of course, many drug addicts claim to know that satan exists, and claim to have seen him.
 
🙂 this one made me smile reading it. Now why is it that everytime someone sees a stupid teenager goth,emo, or whatever they think everysingle wiccan is like that (judge not lest ye be judged? ) and honestly, im an indivisualist i bealive that you dont have to stick out like a sore thumb to be diffrent than the norm. if you ever get to see me in real life you wouldnt even think of me as a wiccan or pagan for that matter.

and yes i’ve seen some of those wiccans who have bad childhoods and looked for something, but im not one of those
i have a great family (lil closed minded though) im happy,i have a girl-friend who i love with all my heart, so yeah there is no void to feel…its just the path that i chose to take
Goodness pagan, you sound so nice!🙂

Which is why we should all be wary! For the pagan, the heretic, the witch, the enemy; they all take guises we would never expect! Trust no one! A suspicious mind is a healthy mind! The enemy, and death, is all around us! Don’t be caught off guard by their assault brothers! Be ready!

Tolerance begets treachery.
 
When I hear “witchcraft”, I usually imagine neo-pagan hippies or the dungeons & dragons kids from highschool. The only people I ever knew who got into that sort of thing were the guys who collected swords and had a thing for the rennaisance and metal 😃
 
Goodness pagan, you sound so nice!🙂

Which is why we should all be wary! For the pagan, the heretic, the witch, the enemy; they all take guises we would never expect! Trust no one! A suspicious mind is a healthy mind! The enemy, and death, is all around us! Don’t be caught off guard by their assault brothers! Be ready!

Tolerance begets treachery.
Are you involved in theater? 😉
 
Gotta love it, everybody, join Wicca and become a Neo-Pagan.

Rules? Sounds like the old natural law in new wineskins.

Traditions? Whatever you say, there is NO historical record and if you claim you are a Druid, there is no one to say you aren’t.

It’s cafeteria pantheology at its best! Talk and talk and whatever you don’t like, you say that individual is not a “true” wiccan or neo-pagan or whatever.

Why do we sign up?
 
When I hear “witchcraft”, I usually imagine neo-pagan hippies or the dungeons & dragons kids from highschool. The only people I ever knew who got into that sort of thing were the guys who collected swords and had a thing for the rennaisance and metal 😃
Hey, I’m 55. I collect swords. I’ve worn armor and have armor. I have this thing for the Rennaissance and the Middle Ages. I am also an accomplished calligrapher courtesy of my interests. And, ooooooh, I’ve sung in my choir not only Gregorian Chant but sacred polyphony. So, I do the Catholic side of the house.

I don’t dismiss out of hand these pagans. For the most part, they’re not “nut cases” but legitimate seekers. I’ve known far too many of them via being one of those “dungeon and dragons kids” who played D&D way back in the paleocene of the 70s. Did I tell you I do War of Northern Agression too?

In all seriousness…the pagans I have known are sincere in their beliefs as they know them. Do I agree with them? No. Can they get into some serious trouble by virtue of their beliefs? Yes. I am not going to address Catholic apologetics with them. I’m not here to convert. But I do have the educational background in both history and anthropology which many of the “pagans” I have met don’t have. History and anthropology are replete with contradictions to “do what you will but do no harm”. And I have seen far too many of my “pagan” friends “fried” because of this.

I’m not attempting to evangelize or convert anyone. I’ve seen three of my friends “fried” by messing around with things they shouldn’t have been messing around with. I’m not on a religious crusade, I know firsthand what messing around with this kind of stuff can do.

There is good and there is evil in this world. Do no harm is a slippery slope into evil.
 
Neopaganism - paganism as it ought to have been.

No, I don’t believe that I practice “paganism as it ought to have been.” Do Jews today practice “Judaism as it ought to have been” because they do not any longer perform animal sacrifices or stone virgins who have been raped for not crying out loudly enough? Do you practice “Christianity as it ought to have been” because you do not own slaves or burn heretics (note I did not say “witches”) at the stake? Religions change over time, just as social mores do.

I try to practice the Hellenic religion as it might have become if it had been practiced continuously until current times. I realize that this is not wholly possible, but I do the best I can. I also practice it as a 21st century American, with all the mores, worldview, etc that that entails, as well as the requirement for following the laws of my society. This is why I use the term Neopagan–I am not trying to reconstruct authentic practices or pretend that nothing has changed in the last several centuries.

The sacred stories of the ancient Greeks are a starting point, telling me about the ways in which they experienced the Gods in their time and place, but in the end it comes down to my own experience of the Gods here and now. If I did not have real experiences of them and my relationship with them, I would not follow this religion. It would have been infinitely easier for me to have remained Christian.

It sounds like you may be under the misapprehension that “Neopaganism/Paganism” is a descriptor of an overarching single religion with different sects such as Wicca and Druidry, as “Christianity” is an overarching term that includes sects such as Catholics and Baptists. This is incorrect. The relationship in which the terms “Neopaganism,” “Wicca,” and “Druidry” stand is closer (though not exactly identical) to the relationship between the terms “monotheism,” “Christianity” and “Islam.”

To clarify once more, I am not, nor have I ever been, Wiccan of any kind. I have never called myself a witch, nor am I very interested in ceremonial magic or any of the rituals usually associated with the practice of modern day witchcraft, including spellcasting. My religion is considered a Neopagan religion. So is Wicca. That does not make them equivalent, nor subject to the same directives or philosophies. Kitty and I practice different religions. Reborn and I practice different religions. The Wiccan Rede is part of their religion, not mine.

**we all have met individuals who are ensnared by power and they will cross the line and they will do evil. **

There are people who do evil, people who will twist any teaching to their own ends, people who are mentally or emotionally ill, people who are in it just to shock or for show, people who are on power trips, people who fail to live up to the ideals, people who are seemingly incredibly gullible in every religion. In other words, religions are made up of human beings.

no matter what your belief system is, the reality of evil in the world is self-evident.

Yes, it is. It is one of the most powerful arguments against monotheism as practiced by Christians that I have seen.

**If all was “do no harm”, what need for brehons? **

The Wiccan Rede did not exist in any of the pre-Christian religions of which I am aware. Wicca is wholly a religion of the 20th and 21st centuries, as is the Rede. It did not exist for the brehons to follow.

I do not claim to follow it, nor does the organizaton of which I am a part. We put more emphasis on the Nine Virtues: wisdom, perserverance, hospitality, piety, fertility, moderation, courage, integrity and vision. If you would like to explore these in more depth chronarchy.com/mjournal/virtues/.
Do I exemplify all these virtues at once and constantly? No. In many situations it is not possible to follow all of them equally–one must weigh the relative applicability of each to the situation.

(cont.)
 
Hey, I’m 55. I collect swords. I’ve worn armor and have armor. I have this thing for the Rennaissance and the Middle Ages. I am also an accomplished calligrapher courtesy of my interests. And, ooooooh, I’ve sung in my choir not only Gregorian Chant but sacred polyphony. So, I do the Catholic side of the house.

I don’t dismiss out of hand these pagans. For the most part, they’re not “nut cases” but legitimate seekers. I’ve known far too many of them via being one of those “dungeon and dragons kids” who played D&D way back in the paleocene of the 70s. Did I tell you I do War of Northern Agression too?
Only mentioned the swords and D&D in jest, no offense meant 🙂
 
In the ultimate analysis is there any difference between Adam and Eve living in the Garden of Eden except they can’t eat the fruit of a certain tree and do what you want as long as it causes no harm?

You are going to have be a little clearer on your meaning here for me. Sorry.

**In anthropological terms, having myths and stories which are remarkably similar is called the psychic unity of man - meaning that all of humanity thinks pretty much upon the same lines. **

I don’t know that I would go so far as to call it “psychic unity” or, as Joseph Campbell would have it, say that all myth is Jungian archetype. To my mind, the sacred stories (myths, religious stories, depends on who is talking as to which you label a certain story 🙂 ) of a culture or a religion all do have the same purpose, however.They are meant to show one how to be human (in relation to that society) and how to relate to that which is beyond the current level of human understanding. They are not meant to be taken merely literally—they are much too important for that.

** a faith which cannot be questioned is not faith.**

No argument there.

** All one needs to do is to read the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh and realize that Gilgamesh was written long before the Old Testament.**

Am I correct in understanding you to mean by this that since the Epic was written before the OT and also contains a flood story, that reinforces your belief that the OT is the accurate, original narrative of an actual historical event–ie a flood that covered the entire world?
 
For me it is simply a form of superstition with varying degrees of harm to others including one’s self

Ironically, “superstition” is exactly the label the Romans applied to early Christianity
 
I try to practice the Hellenic religion as it might have become if it had been practiced continuously until current times. I realize that this is not wholly possible, but I do the best I can. I also practice it as a 21st century American, with all the mores, worldview, etc that that entails, as well as the requirement for following the laws of my society. This is why I use the term Neopagan–I am not trying to reconstruct authentic practices or pretend that nothing has changed in the last several centuries.
The sacred stories of the ancient Greeks are a starting point, telling me about the ways in which they experienced the Gods in their time and place, but in the end it comes down to my own experience of the Gods here and now. If I did not have real experiences of them and my relationship with them, I would not follow this religion. It would have been infinitely easier for me to have remained Christian.
Maybe it’s for a different thread, but how have you seen/experienced your reality of these gods and how does it affect your life. Some specifics would be nice.
 
Only mentioned the swords and D&D in jest, no offense meant 🙂
No offense taken. I am a medievalist. Yes, I really do have swords and armor. I really am a calligrapher. I really have sung in Latin in both Gregorian Chant and sacred polyphony. I am the Catholic version of our pagan friends. I have been there and done that in terms of recreating the Middle Ages as they ought to have been.

Unfortunately, I also know full well that the Middle Ages were not as they ought to have been and therein lies my problems with my neopagan friends.
 
I have got to learn how to use multi quotes!

Karen, I find it shocking that you claim a Druidic ancestry and are not aware of the differences between a bard, a brehon, and a Druid - the three classes of druids in classical Celtic Druidism. I must say that if I were to claim I was to reinvigorate an ancient religion, I would do my basic homework.

I’m not singling you out. This is a basic issue I have had around the campfire over the years. Few, if any, have done the basic homework to discern first the historical reality. Druidism as we think it should be…not as it was.

The “psychic unity of man” is taught in Anthropology 101. Jung elaborated upon it as did Joseph Campbell. I would highly reccomend reading Campbell or watching his PBS broadcasts.

As for the Flood narrative, are you aware that HMC does not teach that Genesis is literal? Oh, there was a flood. It can either be memories of the glaciers melting after the Pleistocene or a specific event in which the Mediterranean flooded into the Black Sea Basin. Or world wide climatic change. Meet a Catholic who does not believe that Genesis was literal. And my faith has not been shaken.

My faith, if anything, has been confirmed by my anthropology and history. It is my faith - and the faith of my ancestors. Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. Two thousand years of testimony …two thousand years of St. Patrick, St. Dunstan, St. Brendan, St. Columba…and on and on.

And you are trying to ressurect a long dead religion which has no connection with the past - no priesthood for over a thousand years. Frankly, y’all, if I were so inclined, I’d have better results using H.P. Lovecraft and worshiping Cthulhu… What is the difference between neopaginism and Scientology? Tell me that.
 
Only mentioned the swords and D&D in jest, no offense meant 🙂
I just lost 413 experience points by deciding not to cast “magic missile” halfway through the incantation. You’re lucky this is a Lawful Good party, dude.

🤓

And yes, I too remember D&D before the advent of alignment and THAC0 rolls.
 
n anthropological terms, having myths and stories which are remarkably similar is called the psychic unity of man - meaning that all of humanity thinks pretty much upon the same lines.
Carl Yung Christian psycho analysti
 
Carl Yung Christian psycho analysti
Um, no. Jung was a psychologist. What I posted is anthropology - Bastian. It has nothing to do with psychoanalysis. It has everything to do with man is man meaning that all of us despite our cultural differences are inherently the same.
 
I have got to learn how to use multi quotes!

It’s an easy bit of basic HTML (hypertext markup language) coding. When the quote comes up, replace the wording in the first set of brackets with “b” (for “bold/emphasis”–without quotation marks), then when you wish to end that section, type “” "(without quotations marks) to end it. You can do the same with a single word or phrase in your own response if you would like to make it appear in bold print for emphasis.

When you get to the next section you want to quote, do it again. At the end of the entire quoted message, you will need to replace the “” with “” to end it.

You can also put something in italics by using “" at the beginning and "” at the end of the section or word you would like italicized.

It’s best to hit the “Preview Post” button once you’ve done this, especially the first few times, to be sure that you made the beginning and ending tags (the bits in brackets) agree with each other (that you don’t have a b at one end and a quote at the other). If they don’t agree it won’t look right.
 
**Karen, I find it shocking that you claim a Druidic ancestry and are not aware of the differences between a bard, a brehon, and a Druid - the three classes of druids in classical Celtic Druidism. I must say that if I were to claim I was to reinvigorate an ancient religion, I would do my basic homework. **

Well you might **if **I had done so. I don’t claim Druidic ancestry. I am not reinvigorating Celtic Druidism.

You stated “* The same Druids that you invoke in their guise as brehons invoked the law. If all was “do no harm”, what need for brehons?*”

I simply stated that the Wiccan Rede did not exist in that form until the 20th century, therefore it is irrelevant to claim (as I understood the argument) that if the Celts followed the Wiccan Rede there was no need for brehons. I had no intention of getting into the structure of Celtic Druidism.

I do belong to an organization that calls itself Druidic, though that is a bit of a misnomer in my opinion, as not all the members follow a Celtic religious path. Frankly, I find the name confuses people, but it is an organization that I find helpful in my journey, so I deal with it (and I didn’t choose the name, after all 🙂 ). It’s emphasis is on those societies under the umbrella designation of Indo-European, and places an emphasis on scholarship. If you have further interest, the web address is www.adf.org.

**This is a basic issue I have had around the campfire over the years. Few, if any, have done the basic homework to discern first the historical reality. **

I sympathize. I have had the same problem, both with SCAdians (I was active for a number of years) and with others, both Christian and non-Christian. Some are called to scholarship and find it a very important part of their faith. Others find it less relevant or even counterproductive. I confess that I don’t really understand the latter point of view, but I realize that it exists. I will freely admit that unfortunately there are many in various Neopagan religions who have done little more than read the latest popular book put out by Llewellyn Press. However, I don’t believe that one could claim with any validity that the majority of those who consider themselves Christians have done extensive scholarly study on first century Palestine, the historical realities of the various denominations of Christianity over the centuries, etc, either.

I will agree with you that I have not done an exhaustive study of the history of Celtic Druids, though I have probably a better than average acquaintance with it compared to the average American. I have read Ellis’ “A Brief History of the Druids,” Piggott’s “The Druids,” as well as “In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology and Myth” by Mallory, “A History of Pagan Europe” by Pennick and Jones, and, by Hutton, “The Rise and Fall of Merrie England: the ritual year 1400-1700,” “The Stations of the Sun: a history of the ritual year in Britain,” “Witches, Druids and King Arthur,” and “The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles.”

I have, however, done much more focused study in the area of Greek religion (not surprisingly), the pre-Christian religion that originally worshipped my Gods, in order to learn more about the ways in which they interacted with the Gods. I have found Walter Burkert’s “Greek Religion” to be particularly useful.

The “psychic unity of man” is taught in Anthropology 101. Jung elaborated upon it as did Joseph Campbell. I would highly reccomend reading Campbell or watching his PBS broadcasts.

I have read much of Jung, Campbell, Eliade, Huston Smith, etc. Thank you for the recommendation. My background tends more to the psychology and history end than the anthropology, however. Having read them doesn’t necessarily mean that I agree with them 100%.

I do think that their work really helped lay the groundwork for the flowering of modern Neopaganism. Many Neopagans hold a view of deity that owes a tremendous amount to them, and one that is quite different than the view held by those living in most pre-Christian societies. For the vast majority of history, the Gods were seen as actual separate beings, not as interchangable aspects of a single deity. This is in part why I describe myself as a polytheist rather than a duo- or monotheist.

Have you by chance read Ronald Hutton’s “Triumph of the Moon” on the philosophical, societal, etc trends in the 19th and 20th century that set the stage, if you will, for many new movements, including Neopaganism? I think you would find it very interesting given your background. On the issue of Goddess religion, have you read “The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory: why an invented past will not give women a future” by Eller? Or seen this discussion between Anita Louise, a former leader in the Goddess community, and Ian Hodder, head of the excavations at Catalhoyuk catalhoyuk.com/library/goddess.html?

(cont)
 
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