Original sin in Orthodox view

[George720]

I’ve never met a modern EO person who claimed that infants were not baptized for the remission of sin

I hope you never do meet such an EO… Infants can be born demon-possessed… They can be born with their mother’s sins (…and in sins did my mother bear me… Ps 50/51)… So that even if they have committed no sin, they can have sins… Just not Adam’s sin…

The 1772 Catechism you cite is no longer in use all that much, useful though many of our catechisms can be… It is not Church Dogma, but taught Christianity to beginners… My Priest taught his catechism class directly from the Symbol of the Faith, word by word…

geo

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Is there any other Church than the Latin Communion that holds this dogma, ONS?
Perhaps a Council that teaches that aborted infants descend into hell? Or unbaptized new-borns who die go to hell for punishments… ??

Probably not explicitly, no. Punishment in sense of this dogma means “not attaining Salvation and Beatific Visions”. It was declared at Florence with Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Fathers present if that has any significance.

Laver of Regeneration is correct, and martyrdom can suffice, and as God said: “I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy!”

What baptism of water can do, so can baptism of blood. At least if I am not missing something.

 

[dochawk]

First or second council? I may want to rethink my position on kneeling on Sunday

Canon 20, first Nicean council

Understand, though, that at the time, kneeling was the position of repentance, and that standing was the position of respect.

It changed in the west in the Middle Ages, when folks started kneeling and genuflecting to earthly kings. Surely the King of Kings was due as much, and so . . .

(the East never adopted this innovation.)

Not all that different, I suppose, about how the RC came to crossing themselves backwards: rather than right to left, which had been universal, the laity started following the priest’s hand in blessing, leading to a mirror image.

(The east hasn’t accepted this one, either)

We do not talk about lombo.

First rule of limbo club !
:crazy_face:

There was a Council at Nice???

One of the many spellings. At least it’s more nailed down than Uhzrod . . .

 

[ReaderT]

We (Orthodox) don’t believe in original sin as the Catholics do.

Miscarried babies are in Heaven. There’s no need to speculate or “hope for God’s mercy for them”. They’re in heaven, period.

 

[pohandes]

We (Orthodox) don’t believe in original sin as the Catholics do.

Miscarried babies are in Heaven. There’s no need to speculate or “hope for God’s mercy for them”. They’re in heaven, period.

Can you give us a orthodox evidence that says that?

 

[ReaderT]

Can you give us a orthodox evidence that says that?

Sure:

https://www.oca.org/orthodoxy/prayers/service-after-a-miscarriage-or-stillbirth

"O Lord, Who guards Thy children in this life and prepares for those who have departed from us in their innocence a haven in the radiant angelic realm in the heavenly mansions: Do Thou, the same Master, Christ our God, receive in peace the soul of Thy child [N.], for Thou has said, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the Kingdom of heaven.”

 

[pohandes]

Sure:

oca.org

Common Prayers - Service after a Miscarriage or Stillbirth ​

A general Service of Prayer celebrated at the time of loss or thereafter, but especially when the priest is called to attend to a miscarriage or stillbirth. P: Blessed is our God, always, now and ever and unto ages of ages. R: Amen. O Heavenly…

"O Lord, Who guards Thy children in this life and prepares for those who have departed from us in their innocence a haven in the radiant angelic realm in the heavenly mansions: Do Thou, the same Master, Christ our God, receive in peace the soul of Thy child [N.], for Thou has said, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the Kingdom of heaven.”

Thanks. Do you believe that all people are sinners or it is possible for some people to not be sinner?

 

[ReaderT]

Thanks. Do you believe that all people are sinners or it is possible for some people to not be sinner?

Babies and infants certainly don’t commit sins or have passions, but they are still humans in need of uniting with Christ

 

[Alexandria2020]

I believe that the EO pov is that we (humanity) inherit a fallen nature, through Adam’s (original) sin, although we do not inherit the (original) sin itself, only the capacity to sin.

do the Oriental Orthodox (OO) have a same view as EO?

 

[pohandes]

Babies and infants certainly don’t commit sins or have passions, but they are still humans in need of uniting with Christ

Is it possible for a adult person, to do no personal sin in his life?

 

[ReaderT]

Is it possible for a adult person, to do no personal sin in his life?

Except for Jesus and the Virgin Mary, no adult has ever done that

 

[CathBoy1]

do the Oriental Orthodox (OO) have a same view as EO?

That is a very good question, although I am not as familiar with OO theology/spirituality so I am probably not the best person to answer that question.

 

[Alexandria2020]

That is a very good question, although I am not as familiar with OO theology/spirituality so I am probably not the best person to answer that question.

from a US Coptic Orthodox diocese website

“The Holy Sacrament of Baptism is for the remission of sins which is the Original Sin with which everyone is born. We were in Adam when he sinned and in him we all have sinned. This is in addition to the corrupted image that moved away from the holy and pure image of God.”

https://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1530&catid=278

 

[CathBoy1]

It would seem that OO lines up fairly close to RC’s view on this particular subject, however I’m not sure on how the OO handle the teaching of Limbo.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

It would seem that OO lines up fairly close to RC’s view on this particular subject

Interestingly enough, OO seems much closer to RC than EO are in most things pertaining doctrinal views.

however I’m not sure on how the OO handle the teaching of Limbo

If explained in proper sense I don’t necessarily see Oriental Orthodoxy having problems with it.

Miscarried babies are in Heaven. There’s no need to speculate or “hope for God’s mercy for them”. They’re in heaven, period.

Interesting. If Eastern Catholics also have such service and service is infallible as they are part of the Church, same applies to us. What Catechism refers to is born but unbaptised babies. Even Council of Carthage speaks about those “born”.

Then again it was written that we have been made sinful in the womb so if Original Sin is not transmitted through birth but through human nature itself (hence why Old Testament claims sinfulness of unborn), then Carthage saying that Baptism is necessary should mean something for the unborn too.

 

[CathBoy1]

Interestingly enough, OO seems much closer to RC than EO are in most things pertaining doctrinal views.

That is my (very) general understanding of things, I wonder why there hasn’t been deeper discussions of unity (particularly inter/full communion) between the OO and RCC.

 

[pohandes]

Except for Jesus and the Virgin Mary, no adult has ever done that

Would you please give a evidence for it, too?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I wonder why there hasn’t been deeper discussions of unity (particularly inter/full communion) between the OO and RCC.

So do I. There were certainly attempts but in focus is on Eastern Orthodoxy at the moment.

 

[Bithynian]

“The Holy Sacrament of Baptism is for the remission of sins which is the Original Sin with which everyone is born. We were in Adam when he sinned and in him we all have sinned. This is in addition to the corrupted image that moved away from the holy and pure image of God.”

My understanding is that the OO Churches tend to have a synthesis of Augustinian and Cappadocian views of sin or, at least, they don’t radically identify any exclusionary differences between the two perspectives. That particular quote, for example, uses both ‘original sin’ and ‘corrupted image’, the latter being very characteristic of Hellenic theology.

In practice, I surmise that this is largely because most of the disputes vis-a-vis original sin were a post-Chalcedonian controversy between Latins and Greeks, and so OO are less likely to be entrenched in a particular dogmatic position.

 

[Wandile]

Pope St Innocent (414 AD) : “But that which your fraternity asserts the Pelagians teach, that even without the grace of baptism infants are able to be endowed with the rewards of eternal life is quite idiotic “

The council of Carthage (419 AD) which was accepted as de facto infallible after its decrees got accepted by the Council of Ephesus (3rd ecumenical council) also echoed the same sentiments:

*Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema.

For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith (regulam fidei) even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration. “