Original sin in Orthodox view

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I’m sorry but you’re quite mistaken Catholicism most definitely teaches that all have sinned except Jesus and the Virgin Mary
 
pohandes said:
Would you please give me a evidence for it?
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Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Obviously as Catholicism proclaims the Immaculate Conception the above doesn’t include Mary, and seeing as Jesus is our God, the above surely doesn’t apply to Him.
Beyond these two, Romans 3:23 applies to everyone else, this is a central teaching of Catholicism and I challenge you to provide evidence that the RCC teaches otherwise.
 
CathBoy1 said:
I’m sorry but you’re quite mistaken Catholicism most definitely teaches that all have sinned except Jesus and the Virgin Mary
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Yea but Catholicism teaches it is possible to avoid sin thanks to grace of Christ. Theoretically possible… practically no example exists.

In reality this stems from fact God wouldn’t really judge our sins if we had no choice but to do them. Therefore every single sin is a choice and therefore every single sin can be avoided. If there is sin that can’t be avoided there would be no point in trying to avoid it. Only real exception is Original Sin which is basically a stain on human nature (and has no personal guilt attached to itself).
 
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ReaderT said:
This is a central & foundational dogma in both Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism
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If unbaptized infant are in heaven and Orthodoxy’s strong emphasis on human freedom entails that people are personally guilty only for their own sins; Why baptism is necessary?
 
pohandes said:
If unbaptized infant are in heaven and Orthodoxy’s strong emphasis on human freedom entails that people are personally guilty only for their own sins; Why baptism is necessary?
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“Unbaptized infant” is a different scenario than “miscarried child or stillbirth” like we talked about above: have the parents put off baptism when they should have done it? Did the child die at 2 years old? Russians would say, it’s best not to wait very long to get them baptized.

We have to do what Christ told us to do - including “repent and be baptized” (Acts 2:38). A miscarried child has no opportunity to be baptized, and we don’t believe Christ is a legalistic tyrant who demands impossible things, so we believe they’re fine. But a born infant should be baptized.
 
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Do you believe that infants are truly baptized for the remission of sins? Because to deny this is to deny the canons of Carthage, which are accepted in the Quinisext Council.
 
Isearch said:
Do you believe that infants are truly baptized for the remission of sins? Because to deny this is to deny the canons of Carthage, which are accepted in the Quinisext Council.
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I didn’t deny the Councils - I told pohandes that there’s a difference between when people should act (baptizing infants) and when they can’t possibly act and we believe God is merciful (baptizing before miscarriage)
pohandes said:
If born infant die unbaptized, will he go to heaven?
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This will be my last post here. Orthodox are told not to speculate too much about the salvation of other people - we should worry about our own salvation instead. God knows the circumstances of every situation and He knows why an infant died unbaptized. We believe He is all-merciful. But like I said, it’s good not to wait too long to baptize an infant. In Romanian hospitals, a doctor will baptize a child in the delivery room if he is in danger of dying after birth.
 
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pohandes said:
It may describe past, and not be about present.
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And it is up to you to prove that theory, otherwise we must except it at face value.
OrbisNonSufficit said:
Theoretically possible… practically no example exists.
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Actually one example exists, the Virgin Mary.
She is a perfect example for all of us.
OrbisNonSufficit said:
Only real exception is Original Sin which is basically a stain on human nature (and has no personal guilt attached to itself).
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And yet it is still considered sin, and the Church teaches that we are all born with Original Sin, hence all have sinned in the RCC pov.

The point being Catholicism recognizes that everyone, everyone falls short of the glory of God, thus everyone has sinned (excluding Jesus and Mary), and I challenge anybody here to provide any Catholic teaching or even literature (not personal opinions) that shows otherwise.
 
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CathBoy1 said:
And yet it is still considered sin, and the Church teaches that we are all born with Original Sin
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True.
CathBoy1 said:
hence all have sinned in the RCC pov.
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No, not personally. All have sin in their souls =/= all have sinned.
CathBoy1 said:
The point being Catholicism recognizes that everyone, everyone falls short of the glory of God, thus everyone has sinned (excluding Jesus and Mary), and I challenge anybody here to provide any Catholic teaching or even literature (not personal opinions) that shows otherwise.
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Of course, that is true.
 
It should be kept in mind if it hasn’t been mentioned that the sin we inherit from Adam and Eve is the unjust or disordered state, of being spiritually separated from God. This is also known as the “death of the soul” and is the reason that all humans must be born again. We must be reconciled with God by coming to know Him-a knowledge that we’re born without-and that’s why Jesus came, when the time was ripe in human history, to reveal the true face of God, a revelation which included, even, the willingness to sacrifice ones own life in human flesh, with all the pain and humiliation involved, if that’s what it takes to prove a love so vast that it’s hard for us to begin to imagine. That’s our God. That’s Who Adam basically, foolishly, dismissed and rejected. That’s Who we’re here to come to know:

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

Without this this “knowledge of God” as it’s called, intended to become increasingly direct and personal, we’re lost, dead, unable to rise on our own. And the more we know the true God the more we love Him, and the greater is our justice or righteousness based on that love alone. Communion with God is how things come back into order for man.
 
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OrbisNonSufficit said:
Then again it was written that we have been made sinful in the womb so if Original Sin is not transmitted through birth but through human nature itself (hence why Old Testament claims sinfulness of unborn), then Carthage saying that Baptism is necessary should mean something for the unborn too.
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“For behold!
I was conceived in iniquities…
And in sins did my mother bear me…”
Ps 50, lxx

Conception is by the lawlessness of pleasure…
Gestation is in the womb of a sinful mother…

Holy Mothers bear holy children…

But Paul’s words are true - It is death that we inherit…
“Let the dead bury their own dead…” (Christ)
For the dead also birth their own dead…
But we are alive in Christ…

The unborn are not baptized…
God has them safely in His Hands…
Many women feel a miscarried child as theirs throughout their lives…

We are born without the Life in us that we receive at Baptism…
Yes, our sins are remitted therein…
But it is Life in Christ that we are given…
The remission of our sins is needed to conceive Christ in us…
For only in purity can Christ be born in us…
That is why Mary was Pure and filled with Grace…
She did not carry Christ in sins…
We have to be made pure in order for Christ to be conjoined with us in our rebirth…
Hence we do our life confession the day before Baptism…
And our sins are washed away in the Waters…
And we are reborn into Christ…
Sealed in the Holy Spirit…

There is a profound difference between the Latin and the Orthodox understanding of Original Sin and its consequences for us born in Adam…

geo
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There are many things to comment on in this thread, but I think I will limit myself to pointing out that we are saved in/by/through the Church. From an Orthodox perspective, original sin is usually not described as inherited guilt, but a distorted mode of being/tropos, which makes us miss the target (sin). All men are born into a world of confusion, which means that we need Christ to carry us through the storm into the safe harbor of the Kingdom. We are born into the Church by baptism, but we should not forget that the Church prays for all Mankind - and as Orthodox, we have faith in the prayers of the Church. It is also quite strange for us to baptize a person (infant or not), and then withhold Chrismation and the Eucharist - which is also essential for our salvation (Jn. 6:53 f.) - as if they were catechumens.
 
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