Original sin/ Islamic point of view

[inJESUS]

Salamun Alaikum

wa alaykum assalam

“why would God unprotect 2 books?”

By unprotecting the 2 books, the books would be altered. By altering the books, their quality falls rapidly below the original version. By lowering the quality of these books, it makes the Quran stand out even further, giving it an even higher status

you didn;t answer : why?.

“so God allowed the corruption of more than 40 prophets then decided to settle on one?”

We believe that God sent prophets with missions, the harder the mission, the better the prophet must be. In this instance, God wanted to deliver the Quran, which was immune to alterations; this being the hardest mission. This difficult task would only be cmpleted successfully by sending down the best of prophets, i.e. Prophet Muhammed (saws).

you didn’t answer : 120 prophets failed but one not? what is so special about mohammad that other prophets didn’t have?

“don’t you think such a miracle is subjective?”

We believe the Quran to be a clear miracle, if studied correctly, the reader will witness this miracle. In addition, we believe the Quran to contain too many miracles to be considered somewhat subjective.

what about millions who do not see it miraculous ? can we say that this “miracle” failed after all cuz it is too subjective?

“the proof is cripture.”

Scripture* I take it Prove to me this scripture is reliable and speaks the truth.

when God says his word cannot be changed, then we believe Him…we do not believe in a deity who fails to save His word.

“the miracle is that it was preserved?”

I think you misunderstood me when I used the word ‘textual’. What I mean is that the way the Quran was written (content meaning…etc) is considered the miracle itself. This miracle enabled the Quran to be preserved in its original state, and therefore its textual state is perfectly adapted to its purpose of being a miracle that can be witnessed till the end of time.

still, mainly only muslims say this…we are back to subjectivity. A miracle is a miracle…not a subjective one.

Are you an arab?

i know arabic.

 

[inJESUS]

Jesus was very cautious in relaying his message to anyone outside of the Children of Israel. He even hesistated to help a woman in need b/c she was not part of the Children of Israel.

Faith, you overlooked all what Jesus did to non-jews and you were stuck with this so clear passage? didn’t we discuss this message before? and don’t you notice that Jesus’ followers for 2000 years were mainly non-jews? shall we go over this passage again?

as for the verse that you mention above, i was reading a book by a man who graduated from harvard with a degree in divinity who said that that verse was still undergoing changes done by the christian churches until the 4 th century. And that one CHristian scholar and bible commentator said that the verse probably reflects the early church’s interpretation more than Jesus’ actual words…among other things.

i see you are stuck with " literal " words…does it surprise you that we people do not give it too much importance if it were the exact word of Jesus but it’s meaning? these things are absolutely normal to us.

 

[inJESUS]

If you read the verse Jesus refused, saying “i was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”

Israel= God’s people.

Can you show me Jesus saying not to help/preach to non-jews, or not helping a non-jew?

and even after that, she begged him, falling to her knees…and even then he told her “it is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs” so up to this point he refused…

no he did not refuse…he was waiting for her faith to be showed.

until she showed greatness of her faith by her last comment.

and that’s why he helped her…because of her faith, whether jew or not,

He refused 3 times. I dont see where this is showing an anticipation to take the message outside of the Children of Israel. If she didnt beg, and then show great faith…he would have continued walking away.

ys, you got it…it’s all about faith.

That was after the man sent some Jews to plead Jesus to come. Then those Jews had to plead with Jesus explaining that this man was one who had great faith, saying “he is worthy of having you do this for him, for he loves our people, and it is he who built our synagogue for us” And even after that, it was only when the slave showed great faith by his comment that Jesus cured him.

again, it’s about faith

The examples you mention are not normal examples, but ones that are surronded by unusual circumstances…of people, outside of the Children of Israel, who had to beg (or send a delegation of Jews to plead on their behalf) for Jesus to cure them.

should they “oblige” him THEY needed him, not the contrary. I personally don’t see it as begging…when you beg, it is because the person repeatedly refused…but if you ask, out of hopelessness, it is not called begging.

But on the other hand, Jesus would help the Children of Israel on his own without any such test of faith on their part.

example please.

 

[Faith101]

InJESUS

Correct me if i’m wrong, but you are saying that Jesus, from the begining, cured only those who had faith, whether jew or non-jew? If so, then what is the interpretation of this verse?

Matthew10:5-8

5 These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: **Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not.

6 But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel**. 7 And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 **Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give. **

I am not a Biblical scholar, so I would appreciate if you quote one on the interpretation of these verses. I can understand the logic when some people say he limited it in the begining…but to say that he cured everyone and anyone is a bit odd when taking that verse into consideration.

 

[Faith101]

He could still have walked away without helping her, but he didn’t, did he!

But do you notice the unusual circumstances

If Jesus’ message was not universal as you claim, why did the Holy Spirit at Pentecost give the apostles the power to preach and to be understood in other peoples’ languages?

I dont know. Again, i dont know much about this topic. Most of what i have written here comes from a book written by a man who has a degree in divinity.

 

[Faith101]

i see you are stuck with " literal " words…does it surprise you that we people do not give it too much importance if it were the exact word of Jesus but it’s meaning? these things are absolutely normal to us.

It does surprise me. As a Muslim, every statement has to be backed up with proof as to its source. No one can just say Mohamed said so and so without proof…the science of hadith, as you are probably aware. SO yes, it does surprise me that you can attribute things to Jesus without being sure that he ever said it.

So your statement of focusing on the meaning…i dont understand how you can focus on the meaning of words that Jesus may have never said. But if thats they way you do things, thats fine…but you cant argue that jesus said it

 

[Faith101]

Your Lord is one is sent for specific people? Do not steal , murder, be good ecc are universal or limited?

Every messenger came with the same message: worship the one God. With that comes the natural laws of humans…but as to other laws such as the way we fast, pray, etc…those were limited to the people of that time…and werent perfected until the coming of the last messenger.

the scriptures refute this claim…but i’ll go further than that : if God gave teachings to “certain” people, why does it have to be altered later? why does God allow that humans corrupt his Holy Word? why does God concede to the sinfulness of humans?

God didnt alter it. He just didnt protect it, as there was no need to.

You are making this into such a huge deal. You ask why does God concede to the sinfulness of humans…what does that have to do with anything. Is God conceding to the sinfulness of humans when he lets one man murder another?

according to Quran, there are 120 + prophets…so Allah failed to preserve the scripture of 120 prophets but didn’t fail with a single man?

Every people got a messenger, that would make the prophets in the thousands…only a few do we actually know about.

Allah did not FAIL to do anything. Do you think it is due to the failure of God that human beings kill each other? Can’t God protect his creation? Your logic is flawed, and its highly offensive to any God-believing human being.

so finally, after 120 prophets who failed, Allah decides that this one won’t?? is he a discrimitation deity that billions of people get corrupted books but others no?

Patience is indeed a virtue.

I’ll explain again. Those prophets were sent to a specific group of people. Thats it. THe final, protected message that is meant for all of mankind is now available at your local bookstore: the Quran.

You dont believe it. thats fine, but dont make illogical statments. please.

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

Patience is indeed a virtue.

I’ll explain again. Those prophets were sent to a specific group of people. Thats it. THe final, protected message that is meant for all of mankind is now available at your local bookstore: the Quran.

You dont believe it. thats fine, but dont make illogical statments. please.

Faith, how do you know that the angel that appeared to Mohammed, if indeed an angel did appear to him, was really Gabriel and not a devil?

How do you know that what Mohammed claimed happened was not just a hallucination or just simply made up by him? What actual proof do you have for any of his claims?

Why would God entrust his “Word” as a “private revelation” to a human being in the first place? Why would his “Word” just become a book? No human being can be the “perfect role model” except God himself. The only one who can truly show us the way to holiness and truth is God himself, and that is what he did by by assuming a human body and becoming “a man like us in all things except sin”. This is why we believe:

459 The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness: “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me”. “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me…" On the mountain of the Transfiguration, the Father commands: “Listen to him!” Jesus is the model for the Beatitudes and the norm of the new law: " Love one another as I have loved you.” This love implies an effective offering of oneself, after his example.

IN BRIEF

479 At the time appointed by God, the only Son of the Father, the eternal Word, that is, the Word and substantial image of the Father, became incarnate; without losing his divine nature he has assumed human nature.

480 Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.

Vickie