Original sin/ Islamic point of view

[Booklover]

Faith101:

Booklover:

Thanks Vickie…do u believe that Adam was created with the ability to sin? And if so, how is he different from us? And if not, then how did he sin?

Yes, he had the ability to sin as we’ve seen. Man was created with complete free will, he chose to disobey God, and he lost his innocence.

We can have our sins forgiven but we cannot return to the pristine purity and innocence that existed before man chose to sin.

Vickie

 

[Shadowcry]

inJESUS:

can something impure come from something pure?

Sure and vice versa.

 

[ashok]

Nameste to all of my christian friends!

original sin is a foolish idea.

my Hindu urban myths are more “logical” than “original sin” type myth.

why an indepentent shud accept ur myth & feel sinfull 4 a crime he never comitted? my 2 yr old is an angel. i can give my life to save his innocent life free from any sin. he is godly. it is worth for me to give my life to save him. he does whatever god is asking him to do. he is not a sinner. he is born pure. his book of acts is clean. he is now like in heaven ntil he become concious and gain his own sense and comit acts/mistakes based on his own descisions. right now he deserves heaven b’cause he is not born with any sin nor comitted any sin of his own. this is so simple and basic to comprehend. anyone doesn’t agree with this siple fact is a nonsense.

b’cause it is the original sin that is the most nonsensical idea that i’ve ever heard.

my golden advice to all christians: let this nonsensical idea of ur original sin die by completly discarding paul & his anti jesus philosophy & then holding back again to what ur jesus basically taught u.

otherwise u will be still lost in the misery created by paul for another 2000 years unless jesus is back & show u the mirror.

 

[Shadowcry]

Original sin is a joke. People are born evil what nonsense.

 

[inJESUS]

Shadowcry:

Original sin is a joke. People are born evil what nonsense.

the nonsense is your above sentence cuz after 63 posts you understood completely nothing.

Furthermore, not all Christians have the same approach to the original sin doctrine…some believe in original grace instead of original sin. We don’t believe in it to justify Jesus’ death cuz those who believe in original grace understand as well why Jesus died…all these are theological schools and schools of thought…whether you believe in it or in another explanation, the bottom line is that Jesus died for us.

 

[Booklover]

ashok:

Nameste to all of my christian friends!

original sin is a foolish idea.

my Hindu urban myths are more “logical” than “original sin” type myth.

why an indepentent shud accept ur myth & feel sinfull 4 a crime he never comitted? my 2 yr old is an angel. i can give my life to save his innocent life free from any sin. he is godly. it is worth for me to give my life to save him. he does whatever god is asking him to do. he is not a sinner. he is born pure. his book of acts is clean. he is now like in heaven ntil he become concious and gain his own sense and comit acts/mistakes based on his own descisions. right now he deserves heaven b’cause he is not born with any sin nor comitted any sin of his own. this is so simple and basic to comprehend. anyone doesn’t agree with this siple fact is a nonsense.

b’cause it is the original sin that is the most nonsensical idea that i’ve ever heard.

my golden advice to all christians: let this nonsensical idea of ur original sin die by completly discarding paul & his anti jesus philosophy & then holding back again to what ur jesus basically taught u.

otherwise u will be still lost in the misery created by paul for another 2000 years unless jesus is back & show u the mirror.

:whacky:

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam;
A definition of sin is doing what is wrong or not doing what is right according to God’s rules.

Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.source

God set one single and simple rule for our first parents, Adam and Eve, and it was: do not eat from that tree. They broke that command and ate from that tree, in other words, they sinned.

If there are no Divine rules to break, there are no sins to bear. People become sinners when they break the Divine rules while being fully aware and conscious that what they are doing is wrong.
Divine rules come through prophets and messengers, the first messenger was Adam (PBUH), it was him who taught his offspring what was wrong and what was right, only when his offspring would willingly break one or more of the rules taught by him would they become sinners, they were not born sinners.

God has the attribute of forgiveness from time eternity, and for which purpose? for the purpose to forgive someone(s) who will sin (i.e. disobey God’s commands) in time yet to come in His knowledge; in other words God was “ready” to wash away His upcoming creation’s sins, which means that the upcoming creation would be provided with the ability to do good as well as to do evil (sin) and also to distinguish between the two.

Why did God put restrictions and prohibitions on us, the Children of Adam and Eve? Is it because we became sinner as a result of the first sin committed by our parents (original sin) or because He created us, from the start, with a soul capable of doing both good and evil, in other words, with a soul free to obey or disobey His commands? The second is more logical. If God did not set divine rules on the children of Adam, the sin would have stopped to the one commited by Adam and Eve.

Humanity did not inherit the stain of sin from Adam and Eve, but it was in God’s plan to create a being with free will. The free will is what makes one feel the sweetness of the true belief in God if that free will is exercised to please God by avoiding what He forbade and doing what He commanded or enjoined.

My conclusion is that the doctrine of original sin is an innovation and a fabrication made by transgressors who lead astray many others.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[inJESUS]

as i already said, original sin does not mean we are born sinful…we are born with free-will, but it is leaning toward evil that detached us from the Holy presence of God.

as to :

My conclusion is that the doctrine of original sin is an innovation and a fabrication made by transgressors who lead astray many others

i already said these are theological doctrines…some believe in original sin, others in original grace…we do not believe in original sin to JUSTIFY why Jesus died; we believe Jesus DIED thats why there are theological doctrines about it…those who believe in original grace still understand why Jesus died…you can choose any interpretation…the point is that Jesus died for us.

 

[Booklover]

Joseph_Alison:

Salaam;

My conclusion is that the doctrine of original sin is an innovation and a fabrication made by transgressors who lead astray many others.

Salaam.
Joseph.

I’m sorry, Joseph, but that is just your opinion, not fact!

Vickie

 

[Shadowcry]

Sorry Booklover what you say is just an opinion not fact.

 

[gurrato_alaien]

inJESUS:

This thread is a follow up to my discussion with Freedom about the concept of original sin.

Freedom please respond in this thread about why don’t you believe in it, from your own words…i won’t quote Biblical verses so it’d be better if you don’t quote Quran…it’s not religious conversation but more of a philosophical one.

Go ahead…other muslims please feel free to express your ideas about it.

I’ll start with : is human nature pure?

Peace to you brother.

First, Islam, unlike Christianity, does not teach a concept of “original sin”. Adam’s sin was his and his alone; and, according to the Qur’an (for the Qur’anic narration of the story of Adam and Eve, see: the Qur’an: 2: 30-39; 7; 19; 17: 61; 18: 50; 20: 116-17, etc.), God forgave both Adam and Eve when they turned to God in repentance; accordingly they were once again restored to divine mercy. Hence there is no concept of Adam passing on to his progeny an original sin, and therefore no need for stipulating a redeemer for such sins.

Second, as there is no original sin, every one is born into a state of fitrah, a state of natural innocence; sin is acquired later by our own conscious and willful actions. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Every child is born into a state of fitrah or natural state of innocence.”

Third, Islam teaches that God is All-Compassionate and All-Merciful; He is not bound by the rule of a blood sacrifice in order to forgive His servants. To assume that God can forgive only by accepting a blood sacrifice and therefore to state that Jesus or Muhammad died for our sins is not acceptable in Islam. Allah says: “O My servants who have wronged against their souls! Do not despair of Allah’s mercy! For Allah forgives all sins; for He is indeed Forgiving, Compassionate. Turn to your Lord repentant, and submit to Him before the torment overtakes you when you shall not be helped.” (Az-Zumar: 53-54)

Fourth, Islam teaches that every individual is responsible for his/her own salvation. Not Abraham, or Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad can save us; they are only capable of saving themselves through God’s grace. In the words of the Qur’an: “Whoever commits a sin commits it only against himself. Allah is Knowing, Wise.” (An-Nisa’: 111); “Allah does not charge a soul with more than it can bear. It shall be requited for whatever good and whatever it has done.” (Al-Baqarah: 286); “Each soul earns only on its own account, nor does any laden (soul) bear another’s load.” (Al-An`am: 164) “He who is rightly guided, it is for himself; and he who goes astray, it is to his own detriment. No soul can bear another’s burden.” (Al-Isra’: 15)

Fifth, everyone, male or female, can directly approach God without any intermediary of a prophet, saint or priest. God is closer to us than our own jugular veins. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an: “We created man, and We know the promptings of his soul, and We are nearer to him than his own jugular vein.” (Qaf: 16) “When My servants ask you about Me, tell them I am nigh, ready to answer the prayer of the suppliant when he/she prays to Me; therefore let them respond to Me and believe in Me, that they may be rightly guided.” (Al-Baqarah: 186)

So the entire concept of someone dying for our sins is inimical to the Islamic world-view or understanding of the natures of man and God. Islam beckons us all to respond to God’s message and receive His grace and salvation through faith, good works and leading a responsible moral and ethical life."

Peace.

 

[freedomm]

inJESUS:

as i already said, original sin does not mean we are born sinful…we are born with free-will, but it is leaning toward evil that detached us from the Holy presence of God.

Dear inJESUS:

So thus far you have these following two typical opinions (which I am not sure are same as your Church’s):

1. Jesus did not die as God.

1. original sin does not mean we are born sinful.

As to your statement “we are born with free-will”, I would to clear one thing here. We don’t have free will, in the first place. Only God has the Free Will. What we have something is called free choice. The difference between Free Will and free choice is:

When God Wills anything, it always happens they way He intended/wanted.

But when we will as per our choice, it may or may not happen.

If you really want to use the word free will for humans, then you should clarify it what do you mean by it. Or you can say: The **Absolute Free Will ** belongs to God alone and our **free will ** is limited. Because we are not totally free nor our hands are totally tied up. Our freedom is in between these two extreme points, thus it is limited.

Now as to your another statement about original sin: “is leaning toward evil that detached us from the Holy presence of God”, this statement in the light of your scriptures may or may not be true because they (your scriptures) are decidedly altered.

From Islamic pointview, the purpose of Prophet Adam (PBUH)'s creation was to appoint him on the Earth. Earth was already formed/created with it’s all resources suitable for man prior to man’s creation and meant for man. Man is the central figure on this Earth and all creatrues.

If you think man was actually meant to be kept in Heaven only; then the formation of Earth before his birth, is meaningless. And God doesn’t do anything meaningless. He is full of Wisdom.

So, your basis of original sin is now completely demolished from these points. Thus it makes no sense to build a whole structure on an idea such as “origianl sin” which has no basis at all.​

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[inJESUS]

Peace to you brother.

peace

First

, Islam, unlike Christianity, does not teach a concept of “original sin”. as i already said, it is a school of thought.

Adam’s sin was his and his alone;

fine, but can’t you say each person has good/evil?

and, according to the Qur’an (for the Qur’anic narration of the story of Adam and Eve, see: the Qur’an: 2: 30-39; 7; 19; 17: 61; 18: 50; 20: 116-17, etc.), God forgave both Adam and Eve when they turned to God in repentance; accordingly they were once again restored to divine mercy. Hence there is no concept of Adam passing on to his progeny an original sin, and therefore no need for stipulating a redeemer for such sins.

fine and God as well Adam and Eve died spiritually that day but they were given a chance to repent …the point is that they no more enjoyed the presence of God.

Second

, as there is no original sin, every one is born into a state of fitrah, a state of natural innocence; sin is acquired later by our own conscious and willful actions. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Every child is born into a state of fitrah or natural state of innocence.” original sin is not like sin of killing or raping…it is what made Adam live without the presence of God.

Third

, Islam teaches that God is All-Compassionate and All-Merciful; He is not bound by the rule of a blood sacrifice in order to forgive His servants. To assume that God can forgive only by accepting a blood sacrifice and therefore to state that Jesus or Muhammad died for our sins is not acceptable in Islam. Allah says: “O My servants who have wronged against their souls! Do not despair of Allah’s mercy! For Allah forgives all sins; for He is indeed Forgiving, Compassionate. Turn to your Lord repentant, and submit to Him before the torment overtakes you when you shall not be helped.” (Az-Zumar: 53-54) jews awaited a saviour (the messiah)…why is islam agaisnt this notion if it believes that Jesus is THE MESSIAH?

gtg continue later…

 

[inJESUS]

Peace to you brother.

wa allaykum assalam

Fifth, everyone, male or female, can directly approach God without any intermediary of a prophet, saint or priest. God is closer to us than our own jugular veins. Almighty Allah says in the Qur’an: “We created man, and We know the promptings of his soul, and We are nearer to him than his own jugular vein.” (Qaf: 16) “When My servants ask you about Me, tell them I am nigh, ready to answer the prayer of the suppliant when he/she prays to Me; therefore let them respond to Me and believe in Me, that they may be rightly guided.” (Al-Baqarah: 186) and who said Christians SHOULD have an intermediary? i think the intercession of Saints has already been discussed…it’s not an obligation…it’s asking them to pray with/for you.

 

[inJESUS]

Dear inJESUS:

althou the guy is suspended, but here is the answer:

So thus far you have these following two typical opinions (which I am not sure are same as your Church’s):

1. Jesus did not die as God.
​

1. original sin

does not mean we are born sinful. both are theological doctrines…and i think my Church has the same interpretation…i don’t think you will find a Christian who says God died…it is the human nature of Jesus that died, not his divine nature. As to original sin, i already said that it is the tendancy toward evil…it is just a religious term for the sinful nature of humans. Try this analogy for instance. Why is it that we have to ‘teach’ our kids NOT to steal, NOT to hurt, NOT to lie, NOT to harm others, NOT to do this NOT to do that…

that’s it…and with this human nature you cannot be in the presence of the Holy God…it’s like a pure glass of fresh water with a drop of ****…would you drink it?
to say that Allah will accept you if you have 51% good deeds and 49% bad deeds is like He is a cheap bargainer in a market place…No…a corrupt nature cannot be in the presence of a Holy nature…what can make your human nature innocent again? surely not your good deeds…deeds can make you a better person but they do not change your nature.

As to your statement “we are born with free-will”,

yea fine free choice.

Now as to your another statement about original sin: “is leaning toward evil that detached us from the Holy presence of God”, this statement in the light of your scriptures may or may not be true because they (your scriptures) are decidedly altered.

forget about scriptures for a second and look at it logically/philosophically…

From Islamic pointview, the purpose of Prophet Adam (PBUH)'s creation was to appoint him on the Earth. Earth was already formed/created with it’s all resources suitable for man prior to man’s creation and meant for man. Man is the central figure on this Earth and all creatrues.

yea but i still don’t get why put him in paradise in the first place, calling it the place of “felicity” when earth is not that great compared to paradise…if you say otherwise is against logic and human experience.

So, your basis of original sin is now completely demolished from these points. Thus it makes no sense to build a whole structure on an idea such as “origianl sin” which has no basis at all

if you consider yourself “no basis” then fine.
​

​

 

[Booklover]

For any Muslim who is interested, here’s what the Catechism says about original sin.

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/visible4.html#ORIGINAL

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

i found this interesting to those who say that Adam was not expelled from paradise cuz he disobeyed Allah:

1. O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.

According to quran, Adam WAS expelled from paradise NOT because his dwelling place was supposed to be initially earth, but because of Satan ( evil).

1. Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds **all their shame that was hidden ** from them (before):

this means that something happened…they were able to “recognize” shame…they were not the same anymore…they lost their innocence.

 

[Faith101]

i found this interesting to those who say that Adam was not expelled from paradise cuz he disobeyed Allah:

I dont beleive that i ever said that. What I said was that Adam was not meant to dwell in paradise forever. Before even creating Adam, God said “I will create a vicegerent on earth”…the series of events that led up to that, is, i repeat, meant for us to learn from…as one of the verses that you quoted clearly explains, and as i have said many times on the God’s plan thread that i told you look through before asking the same questions here.

At the end of the day, we dont believe a soul will bear the burden of another, whether that person be Adam or Eve or whatever. Whatever burden we bear is that which our own selfs have laid…and even those burdens can be completely wiped out if we simply repent. Again, no murder of an innocent man needed.

Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear anothers burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning). (17:15)

 

[inJESUS]

Faith101:

I dont beleive that i ever said that. What I said was that Adam was not meant to dwell in paradise forever. Before even creating Adam, God said “I will create a vicegerent on earth”…the series of events that led up to that, is, i repeat, meant for us to learn from…as one of the verses that you quoted clearly explains, and as i have said many times on the God’s plan thread that i told you look through before asking the same questions here. i forgot about that thread…i’ll look for it tonight…my point was this though: Adam was expelled from paradise because of evil.

At the end of the day, we dont believe a soul will bear the burden of another, whether that person be Adam or Eve or whatever. Whatever burden we bear is that which our own selfs have laid…and even those burdens can be completely wiped out if we simply repent. Again, no murder of an innocent man needed.

no need to refuse anything just cuz it could be linked to Jesus…that’s paranoic as if nothing related to Jesus is correct for muhammad…if you do not believe in the burden, then look at humanity…Adam= humanity.

Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear anothers burden

. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning). (17:15)irrelevant verse…you still confuse original sin (which is a religious term ) with “sin” …yes everyone is responsible for his own acts…but we are talking about the “shame” that Adam knew when he leaned to evil…something in Adam’s nature changed…his nature is no longer the one he was born with…Adam’s nature knew corruption…i don’t believe a corrupt nature can be reconciled to a Holy nature by it’s own merit cuz deeds make you better but do not make your nature Holy.

 

[randel]

Hi inJesus,

Adam was born with both abilities (i.e to commit sin and not to) and this is how God created man.

If man was created perfect with no ability to commit sin, then God’s command to Adam to refrain from the forbiden tree, makes no sense.

Before eating the forbidden tree Adam was obviously sinless thus he was born sinless. It is this first and foremost nature we all inherit as such we all are born sinless thus if you die when you are a baby, you deserve heaven, Eternal life.

Now the changes that took place in Adam’s existence after eating the forbidden tree, are not like inheritable otherwise God would not have accepted Adam’s repentance and He would have let him suffer eternally. But since God did accept his repentace/prayer, thus whatever change(s) happened in Adam’s physical body is due to his personal act and shouldn’t have a domino effect or continuous inheritable effect. This change may be taken as, if you eat/drink/swallow certain chemicals that you are allergic to, then if any drastic/severe changes happened in your body; then these changes may not neccessarily effect your nature or cease your ability to do good things as such your progeny may not be as rebellious/pious as you are. The most they may inherit from you is some or more or similar physical/genetical properties of you but spiritual/character will be their own and not neccessarily just like yours.

The initial and first command/warning of God to Adam itself is a proof that God had given man a free choice to man to excercise it even in the Paradise.

Now that Paradise is not neccessarily the same type of Paradise (heaven) that the Law abiding people with God’s Mercy will eventually inherit in the Afterlife because these man who are going to live in the Heaven in the Afterlife, are spiritualised men and not men like of Adam or our present physical nature. Because when Adam was born, it was his first birth, and he was placed in the Garden as it is and not after his death and resurrected spiritual form.

So the heaven that Adam was placed in and the one all godly people will dwell in after their spiritualised resurrection, may not neccessarily the same and not neccessarily a sign of closeness to God, because God is beyond human imagination and everything (that is known and unkown to men) are within God’s control but God is not neccessarily exists/resides in every created thing or everywhere.

And at the end of the day (as FAITH said), no other person is responsible for your sins/mistakes or good deeds. Period.
Logically and rationally the greatness of man should not be him being born as totally immune to commit any sin. The greatness and God’s Mercy on man is him being born with both abilities of doing sin/mistake or refrain from sin/mistake, and then if commits any sin/mistake repent to God becaue this life is a trial with free choice. If you are born sinless thus did not make mistake then what trial you really went through? If you wear a fire proof dress head to toe and burned yourself with fire and did not die, and claimed that “see I did not die nor fire burned my up nor I was afraid of fire while I burning myself”, then I would say “what is the big deal?”

Now comig to Jesus’ birth. He too was a man and born as a man just like Adam. Thus Jesus’ greatness is despite being born just like us, refrained from all major sins.

Saying that Jesus was God and did not commit sin, is a meaningless statement. Because, what God had to do with the sins, anyway? God is God.

If you say God came down to earth or born as a perfect full man and did not commit sin, then I would say: “what is the big deal? God is the Greatest already. There is notthing comparable to Him.”

Did you notice how meaningless is your idea of God becoming a perfect sinless man?

Let me put it this way: Let’s say you are a Doctor of Divinity and you are invited in a public meeting to preach your Catholic faith. The chairman of the meeting before calling you, introduces you, in these words: “Ladies and Gentelmen! Mr. inJESUS is a great learned man and he is a Doctor of Dvinity and he knows Alphabet perfectly that he can recite abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz out of his memory.” Then guess! what people will think about the chairman’s introduction. Obviously you cannot become a Doctor of Divinity without knowing the Alphabet thus what is the greatness or speciality of you, in saying that you know Alphabet when you are already a Doctor of Divinity?.