Original sin/ Islamic point of view

[inJESUS]

…continued

How can I, a human being, ever dare to think that i can ever be perfect. Perfection belongs to the Creator, I thought we agreed on this

correct, but before Adam sinned , he was considered worthy of God’s presence, which is because he was obediant to God…once he disobeyed, he was detached from God correct?

God does not burden us with more than we can bear…its so simple. Sin…repent. No bloodshed required.

the first part is corect…the second is not what the entire Bible says.

I didnt know thats what Christianity taught about that event. Can you give me verses from the Bible to read about it?

i’ll see later what i can provde.

 

[Faith101]

]

inJESUS:

i think that you believe original sin is like the in of killing , raping ecc…this is NOT original sin…

I dont believe that…i know that is not what you mean when you say original sin.

so this baby, if he is pure 100%, how will he become impure later? i believe that impurity cannot stem from purity. Shall we agree now that human nature is not pure and cannot restore what is lost?

We cant agree on that because Islamicially, there are certain things that if they are done (ofcourse with the right intention and belief) wipe out all sins and return you to your “baby state”.

Again, human nature is humanly, therefore not perfect. If you want to call something thats not perfect, impure…than thats fine, but its such a negative phrase for something thats not negative.

basically you are saying that if you were pure, but became impure, you can still return to purity??

thats exactly what i’m saying.

good actions and deeds and repentance are obligatory…but do they restore the purity you lost?

Yes.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “Whoever performs hajj to this House (Ka’ba) and does not approach his wife for sexual relations nor commits sins (while performing hajj), he will come out as sinless as a newly-born child. (Just delivered by his mother).” (Book #28, Hadith #45)

and also, see my signature below.

it’s like woman’s virginity…in very basic human language, when a woman looses her virginity (purity) she can NEVER get her innocence/purity back…

Thats not exactly the best analogy…b/c with virginity, something is broken, and can not be fixed naturally. Speaking of the soul, you can sin, but through repentance, you are returned to your initial state.

I know its crazyyyyyyyyyyy…sometimes when i sit there and think about it, i cant fathom how Allah can be so Merciful…its amazing and we dont deserve it.

 

[Faith101]

Faith, I know you will probably ignore me

lol. Vickie! How are ya. Its nothing personally against you, but i learned recently that we should not be actively talking with people who insult Islam. I know you dont mean to sometimes, and its out of a good intention to guide to the truth…but i take it to heart.

but the fact that all human beings are sinners is a confirmation that we did in fact inherit that sin committed by our first parents.

We didnt inherit their sin. Adam is a human being, right. So, because of his nature, he was given the ability to sin…he did. What does that have to do with me? The only link between us regarding our nature is that we are both humans, both with the ability to sin.

Before they disobeyed God, Adam and Eve were so innocent that they did not even realize that they were naked! If was only after they sinned, that their eyes were opened and they realized their nakedness! Can you understand that?

yes, we believe that too… good observation…i dont know what the scholars have said it signifies…inshAllah, i’ll look it up.

If we had not inherited that sin of theirs, no one after Adam and Eve would have sinned, but we’re all sinners. It’s part of our human nature. A baby is only sinless until he has reached the age of reason, but as soon as he does, our sinful nature asserts itself and he begins to sin.

I understand what you are saying. Adam was not created perfect, however, or else he would have never sinned, right? His nature is ours, because we were created that way. Its not HIS sin that gave us this nature.

 

[Faith101]

correct, but before Adam sinned , he was considered worthy of God’s presence, which is because he was obediant to God…once he disobeyed, he was detached from God correct?

God’s plan, from the begining, as stated in the Quran, was to create a vicegerent on earth. It wasnt like God created adam to live in paradise and then adam sinned and now God has to be put him on earth. That trial for Adam and Eve serves many purposes, all of which have been discussed in a thread entitled God’s plan, inshAllah if you are interested, you can search for it on this site.

 

[inJESUS]

to Faith, i’ll provide more later God willing

answering-islam.org.uk/Clarke/sacrifice.html

 

[Faith101]

Faith, it is very easy…do we lean to good AND bad ? if yes, we are not pure in God’s standard NOT in human standard…yes am human so i must act on my desires or on what God wants? do i ALWAYS do what God wants? simple question.

I dont believe God would create us a certain way, and then tell us that we are not good enough, using His standards. He created us, and knows our weakness…in fact, Allah states in the Quran

Allah doth wish to Turn to you, but the wish of those who follow their lusts is that ye should turn away (from Him),- far, far away. . Allah wishes to lighten (the burden) for you; and man was created weak (in flesh) (Quran 4:27-28)

this ability to sin, once done, is the original sin.it is using this ability instead of righteousness…got it now?

I honestly think that we are on two different pages.

do you believe that Adam was born *without * the ability to sin?

repentance cannot restore you back the purity you lost…it makes you strive to become better, but it does not restore back your SPIRITUAL VIRGINITY.

thats your belief.

exactly…so God’s mercy is shown perfectly on earth…i fail to see why you call it mercy on judgment day if 1- you are not sure and 2: it is conditional…i believe in an inconditional and proved mercy mercy.

So you believe the wrongdoing, disbelievers will attain paradise because of God’s blind unconditional mercy?

After going back and forth in this dialague here…i realize that the real difference is that I believe repentance and good action and belief is enough for Allah to accept us into His company…and you believe that nothing can ever be enough, not even the mercy of God…but only the sacrifice that God had to make in letting his only son die on the cross for you.
Whether we are born pure, impure, sin-free, sin-ful…doesnt matter if the differnce is what i mentioned above.

I’ve realized, many thanks to this forum, that some differences cant be talked out…or resolved…I am content with what God has given me and what He promises…so,with that. to you, your belief…and to me mine

 

[inJESUS]

Faith,
you still fail to grasp what am trying to explain…it is hard for me due to language restrictions.

Adam aws created good not sinful…but he was given freedom to choose…Adam chose to disobey because he leaned to evil…this disobediance detached him from GOd…whether God forgave him or not is irrelevant…you migght say : yes but allah did not mean to leave him in paradise…it was a trial…

fine, but this trial caused the temporary detachment from God, from paradise to earth cuz if Adam succeeded the trial, it’ss illogical that he was going to be sent to earth…otherwise, why was he even put there in the first place?in other words, whether adam failed or succeeded he was going to put to earth? then this paradise trial doesnt make sense to me.

Anyway, Adam was with God, in His presence, but now he is no longer (Adam=us)…so detachment.
to be able to go back to God, we must be like Adam before disobeying God…can Adam or God pretend that nothing really happened? no, God is just…he is merciful so he forgave Adam, but He is Just…this disobediance must have a Just reply…the reply is a detachment from God . Now the question is : can we, on our own, recreate ourselves in the same way God created Adam before disobediance? and yes, the virginity example applies: someting IS broken…spiritual innocence IS broken…this cannot be restored on your own efforts…you better it, but you cannot recreate it.

Again, forgiveness of daily sin is not the issue here…it is the restoration of spiritual innocence…if you knew what evil is, you are NO LONGER innocent…you try to retain your innocence, but something WAS LOST.

 

[inJESUS]

I dont believe God would create us a certain way, and then tell us that we are not good enough, using His standards. He created us, and knows our weakness…

I did not say this…i said: God created us with freedom…it is the ABUSE of freedom that is called original sin…if God created us with no freedom, then we are robots . Do we ALWAYS choose our freedom to do good?

I honestly think that we are on two different pages.

i dont think so…we agreed on lots of stuff in your first page but you fail to answer my yes/no questions…you are twisting what am saying.

do you believe that Adam was born *without *

the ability to sin? alredy said that freedom includes the ability to sin…it is leaning toward disobeying God that is called Original sin.

thats your belief.

we can discuss it…can you restore back your spiritual innocence?think deeply about it.

So you believe the wrongdoing, disbelievers will attain paradise because of God’s blind unconditional mercy?

what??? i was saying this : to be called mercy, it must not be conditional otherwise it’s no more mercy and t must be shown…and i never said that God is ONLY merciful…he is JUST as well.

After going back and forth in this dialague here…i realize that the real difference is that I believe repentance and good action and belief is enough for Allah to accept us into His company…

fine but i already said that we are discussing deeper than these ideas…we are talking about restoring what is lost…

and you believe that nothing can ever be enough, not even the mercy of God…

and where is justice?

but only the sacrifice that God had to make in letting his only son die on the cross for you.

leave this topic aside now…am not thinking biblically but logically…you are still stuck with scripture.

Whether we are born pure, impure, sin-free, sin-ful…doesnt matter if the differnce is what i mentioned above.

am not talking about HOW we are born but HOW we use our freedom.

I’ve realized, many thanks to this forum, that some differences cant be talked out…or resolved…I am content with what God has given me and what He promises…so,with that. to you, your belief…and to me mine

yes yes keep your belief no one is asking you otherwse it’s a logical discussion…continue later God willing

 

[Faith101]

i dont think so…we agreed on lots of stuff in your first page but you fail to answer my yes/no questions…you are twisting what am saying.

I am not twisting what you are saying, at least i am not trying to. Your vocabulary and underlying foundation that you are working from is different than mine. It’s because of this, we will not be able to see eye to eye on issues like this

what??? i was saying this : to be called mercy, it must not be conditional otherwise it’s no more mercy and t must be shown…and i never said that God is ONLY merciful…he is JUST as well.

i apologize, i misunderstood.

and where is justice?

All i know about judgement is what Allah has chosen to reveal to us. I can not sit here and think and decide what should Allah do with our sins, or how should he reward us punish us. I leave the judgement to the Judge.

Having said that, Allah tells us that he promises to forgive us of our sins if we seek repentance and mend our ways. If our sin involved the opression of another human being, then we have to fix that too. That is number one

Number two, Allah promises that no one, from Hitler to Jesus to you and me will be dealt with unjustly. Every soul shall recieve what it has earned and no small bad deed nor small good deed will be left neglected.

This is what I know, as it has been revealed through the Quran. I’m content with it. NOw as to the how, what, where, when, who…i really dont care. Allah does not break His promises, and on Him i depend.

leave this topic aside now…am not thinking biblically but logically…you are still stuck with scripture.

May I always be stuck with scripture! Why trade divine guidance with human logic?

 

[Faith101]

inJESUS:

to Faith, i’ll provide more later God willing

answering-islam.org.uk/Clarke/sacrifice.html

i skimmed through out…can you highlight what you think is relevant to our discussion here

 

[inJESUS]

Faith101:

i skimmed through out…can you highlight what you think is relevant to our discussion here

this is about your question about why we say Jesus is the fulfillment of Abraham’s sarcifice.

 

[Faith101]

fine, but this trial caused the temporary detachment from God, from paradise to earth cuz if Adam succeeded the trial, it’ss illogical that he was going to be sent to earth…otherwise, why was he even put there in the first place?in other words, whether adam failed or succeeded he was going to put to earth? then this paradise trial doesnt make sense to me.

this was discussed in the God’s plan thread, inshAllah you can search for it there.

Anyway, Adam was with God, in His presence, but now he is no longer (Adam=us)…so detachment.
to be able to go back to God, we must be like Adam before disobeying God…can Adam or God pretend that nothing really happened? no, God is just…he is merciful so he forgave Adam, but He is Just…this disobediance must have a Just reply…the reply is a detachment from God . Now the question is : can we, on our own, recreate ourselves in the same way God created Adam before disobediance? and yes, the virginity example applies: someting IS broken…spiritual innocence IS broken…this cannot be restored on your own efforts…you better it, but you cannot recreate it.

InJesus,

This is your logic and your belief…not mine. God can do whatever He wants…maintaining the delicate balance between Mercy and Justice is easy for Him.

I already explained what the Quran says about this and my beliefs on the topic. Allah is not expecting us to come back to him perfect, sinless human beings. He created us, and knows what goes on inside of us.

It is not fair for Allah to create us as weak as we are, and then expect us to bear a burden greater then we can bear…

It is so simply stated in the Quran… I know that in order to justify the need for the death of Jesus, you need to establish all of this. From a Muslim’s perspective, given the information in the Quran and the description of Allah’s relationship with us, all of that is not needed.

 

[inJESUS]

I am not twisting what you are saying, at least i am not trying to. Your vocabulary and underlying foundation that you are working from is different than mine. It’s because of this, we will not be able to see eye to eye on issues like this

fine…i’ll work on that…i’ll summarize in a while the points of similarites/differences making sure the terminologies i use are understood by you.

i apologize, i misunderstood.

no prob

Having said that, Allah tells us that he promises to forgive us of our sins if we seek repentance and mend our ways. If our sin involved the opression of another human being, then we have to fix that too. That is number one

fine.

Number two, Allah promises that no one, from Hitler to Jesus to you and me will be dealt with unjustly. Every soul shall recieve what it has earned and no small bad deed nor small good deed will be left neglected.

fine as well.

.

May I always be stuck with scripture! Why trade divine guidance with human logic?

in my OP, i said no scripture because i know that islam contradicts the OT and NT here as well…thats why i wanted a rational conversation…that is, i want to discuss the idea phylosophically…quoting scripture will prove nothing since they contradict each other.

Summary:

we agree both that God gave Adam freedom but Adam abused it by disobeying God …so we agree on the basic definition of original sin, which is abusing your freedom by going agaisnt God’s will. The difference lies here : what is the consequence of disobeying God?

in islam as i read from your posts, Adam disobeying God had absolutely no consequence…it is as if nothing happened…God who gave Adam absolutely everything except one thing, was disobeyed inspite of all this but as if nothing happened…Allah was merciful to him but i failed to see his justice here.

In the Bible, this disobediance did not go unpunished…God gave Adam absolutely everything and Adam was innocent…by disobeying God, Adam became saw he is naked, which means that Adam lost his innocence and became able to differentiate between evil .and good. Once Adam was able to differentiate, he fell cuz when you know evil, you will be judged if you do it, but if you dont know evil, you won’t. So here we see Adam disobeying God and becoming aware of good/evil and accordingly he will be judged. When Adam was innocent, he was with God,when he lost it, he detached himself from God because he deserved no more to be in His presence. So Adam’s disobediance has consequences in the Bible…when you disobey the One who gave you everything , you don’t deserve to be in His presence . Forgiveness is irrelevant here. Adam (humanity) lost its innocence. Read what Jesus said : At that time the disciples 2 approached Jesus and said, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2
He called a child over, placed it in their midst,
3
and said, "Amen, I say to you, **unless you turn and become like children, ** 3 you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4
Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5
4 And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
6
"Whoever causes one of these little ones 5 who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

We have to be like children, innocent…how, after loosing it?
Praying and fasting makes you forgiven, it does NOT make your human nature innocent or pure.

 

[inJESUS]

this was discussed in the God’s plan thread, inshAllah you can search for it there.

i never read so i’ll look for it later.

InJesus,

This is your logic and your belief…not mine. God can do whatever He wants…maintaining the delicate balance between Mercy and Justice is easy for Him.

fine but i saw absolutely no justice when Adam disobeyed…allah forgave him as if nothing happened…

I already explained what the Quran says about this and my beliefs on the topic. Allah is not expecting us to come back to him perfect, sinless human beings. He created us, and knows what goes on inside of us.

fine…i think my last post explained what is meant by sinless…

It is so simply stated in the Quran… I know that in order to justify the need for the death of Jesus, you need to establish all of this.

History itself proves he was crucified…Jews, Romans, and Christians wrote about it…if you don’t believe this, of course you won’t believe/understand the “why” .

Judaism prophecized a SAVIOUR. Jesus is the AWAITED SAVIOUR. In islam, there is no need for saviour/salvation; in this as well, Mohammad contradicts the Bible that he said he came to continue. Yet, Jesus is called **THE ** MESSIAH in Quran…this Messiah is none but the Saviour Judaism awaited and Christianity received but Mohammad rejected.

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

I understand what you are saying. Adam was not created perfect, however, or else he would have never sinned, right? His nature is ours, because we were created that way. Its not HIS sin that gave us this nature.

Beg to disagree! Adam was created perfect, but he chose to sin of his own free will.

The Catechism states:

374 The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.

375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”. This grace of original holiness was “to share in…divine life.”

Hope this helps!

Vickie

 

[Faith101]

Booklover:

Faith101:

Beg to disagree! Adam was created perfect, but he chose to sin of his own free will.

The Catechism states:

374 The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.

375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”. This grace of original holiness was “to share in…divine life.”

Hope this helps!

Vickie

Thanks Vickie…do u believe that Adam was created with the ability to sin? And if so, how is he different from us? And if not, then how did he sin?

 

[Faith101]

in my OP, i said no scripture because i know that islam contradicts the OT and NT here as well…thats why i wanted a rational conversation…that is, i want to discuss the idea phylosophically…quoting scripture will prove nothing since they contradict each other

How can we discuss the actions of God and His perspective of His creation as well as the nature of His creation, without any divine guidance? You, like me, found yourself in this world…you have no idea what happened before you…or even who Adam and Eve was or what they did…you know all of this because of divine guidance that has reached you.

We can not base a philosophical dialogue on knowledge that has reached us…and then resume to ignore that same knowledge when we make a conclusion.

I know you believe that what you are saying makes complete sense. If i wasnt a Muslim, perhaps i would be inclined to nod my head and say "yeah…that makes sense"and all that would be based on my own inclinations and my own ignorance…but I know better, i have the Quran and the guidance of Allah…and having seen and understood that “logic” i’m much more inclined to believe it…and it makes more sense to me than what you are presenting here.

InJesus, i do want to thank you on your excellent manners in this dialogue And I have learned a lot. Perhaps another Muslim would like to continue, or perhaps you would like to take this discussion to another forum that has more muslims on it…but i’m too tired to discuss this…i’ve spent almost 2 hours writing and replying here…and the end result is neither of our minds will change. I am content with God’s promise and you are content with His sacrifice.

Take care…see you in a different topic

 

[inJESUS]

Hey Faith, thx for sharing this thread was not supposed to convince anyone but a discussion about the meaning/implication of the original sin concept found in the Bible. After all, you agree that it makes sense but you don’t believe it coz you believe your book, which is fair enough

 

[Faith101]

inJESUS:

Hey Faith, thx for sharing this thread was not supposed to convince anyone but a discussion about the meaning/implication of the original sin concept found in the Bible. After all, you agree that it makes sense but you don’t believe it coz you believe your book, which is fair enough

I didnt say that. I said that if that was the only argument presented…then i would go with that. But, its not. There is another perspective out there…which makes much more sense.

 

[inJESUS]

I didnt say that. I said that if that was the only argument presented…then i would go with that. But, its not. There is another perspective out there…which makes much more sense.

hehe i understood…but as you said : if i weren’t muslim, maybe i’d nod my head and say : it makes senses…which means that it doesnt make sense because you are muslim not because it is illogical per se