Original sin/ Islamic point of view

[freedomm]

Just answer the questions, dear inJESUS. I don’t think you did not understand my very simple questions.

 

[inJESUS]

freedomm:

Just answer the questions.

first, i did not understand them…second, you don’t reply to mines why? elaborate on your questions and answer mine please.

 

[inJESUS]

i edited my reply by mistake…you read the answer up…

 

[inJESUS]

freedomm:

Dear inJESUS:

Then:

What made you to believe that:

This same God who is LOVE, His own creation man ( Who created him** “in His own image”** ) or atleast those Choosen Children of God (Jews) too are not evil because ‘Ye are Gods’ called your God while addressing to the Jews in Pslam 82 and also reffered by Jesus in John 10:34.​

this one is a mumbo-jumbo of irrelevant ideas mixed with out of context passages… And as i said : no scripture but normal conversation.

 

[inJESUS]

waiting for your yes/no answers please.

 

[freedomm]

inJESUS:

Original sin is your tendancy toward evil instead of righteousness…

Dear inJESUS:

Let me put it this way, then:

In your view, Original sin, means your (man’s) tendency towards evil, instead of righteousness", right?

Now the questions arise:

Is this the ONLT TENDENCY, all human beings are born with? If so then there must be only evil all over on this earth ever since man appeared on this earth because thats the only tendency he is born with.

Prior to Jesus’ birth, then there must be evil and evil only for millions of years (becasue you believe that only Jesus was sinless). Then, all previous Prophets of God, I don’t know, were what, in your eyes, and what did they do because they too were simply human beings like us, though appointed by God.

And not to mention Jesus’ mother who was born prior to Jesus. Was she too then born with the tendency of evil only?​

 

[freedomm]

Dear inJESUS:

If you don’t answer my simple questions, I will ask you very hard questions, then.

 

[inJESUS]

freedomm:

Is this the ONLT TENDENCY, all human beings are born with?
​

i never said that so the rest of your post is irrelevant…do not digress if you still do not understand what original sin is…strange enough,Faith understood it and agreed…when you understand the idea, then you can start your own thread about theological questions pertaining to it…now yu are still on the surface…no scripture but logical discussion.

I’ll leave now cuz it’s very late…i’ll see your posts tomorrow God willing…waiting for your answers to the questions i asked to Faith, and the yes/no questions. I will not answer any post before you answer mine cuz it’d be disrespectful…after that, we’ll continue and you can ask any question you want.
​

​

 

[inJESUS]

freedomm:

Dear inJESUS:

If you don’t answer my simple questions, I will ask you very hard questions, then.

ask anything as long as it is not irrelevant…i cannot answer irrelevant and out-of context scripture because i dont want to waste time on digressions, trying to explain Biblical passages…this thread is a rational discussion…any attempt to digression will be ignored, this was clear from my first post.

See you tomorrow God willing.

 

[freedomm]

Dear inJESUS:

Before you go too far mindlessly; in your eyes:

**

• What is in fact sin?
• What is in fact righteousness ?
• What is in fact good?
• What is in fact evil ?

• **

I need to see what you actually mean by all these terms because it is possible that you may have diiferent concept of all these very basic terms thus I may be thinking one thing and you something else. We have to be on the same page/same premise before you build the structure of your argument which is essentially based on these basic terms, since you want to discuss on this thread rationally and not on religious scriptures.​

---

 

[Faith101]

Fine, which means that we always sin and we always need to repent…which means that we can never be sinless since we are not pure correct? once you are impure, you cannot return pure correct?

I dont believe that pure=sinless… so unless we can agree on a definition for pure and impure when it comes to human nature…then i’m going to refrain from using them in this reply.

But in terms of sin…then our sins can be completely wiped out…through repentence…there are so many instances in Islam where Allah promises to forgive us *all * our sins.

If you say you are merciful, you show it right? i believe that if God is merciful He must show it on earth, just like He shows His punishment on earth as well.Why should he be Just on earth but merciful after you die? i believe to say something is to prove it.

God’s mercy is everywhere. His mercy is what keeps a mother from not abandoning her new born baby. His mercy is what makes the mother bird fly around all day to feed its young. All this is the mercy of God. You mean to tell me, you dont see God’s mercy on earth? You dont feel His mercy in your every day life?

perfect, maybe Freedom must read this reply cuz he said original sin concept is filthy.

Not all Christians understand original sin as it has been presented in this forum. Whether they are of a different denomination or just ignorant…i’m not sure. But it is usually explained as “the inheritance of the sin of Adam and Eve” not a “tendency to sin” but the actual sin itself. Thats what many Christians have told me, and thats also probably what Freedom has heard. *That * concept, we totally reject,for reasons that i have stated earlier.

but…thru your own repentance, you become “better” not “sinless”…if you repent, pray ecc, you become a better person, you try to apply God’s wish, but you cannot become sinless cuz sinlessness = purity, but we already agreed that we are not pure hence sinful. ( i repeat: sinful does not mean to kill, rape, ecc…sinful= ability/tendency to commit evil).

Perfection and absolute purity belong to God. We agree, i’m sure. Because we are not perfect, we fall into error, ie. sin.

Allah loves those who repent…that means He loves those that sinned and then sought His forgiveness. If we were all walking around “sinless” then what is the point of life itself. How do we even begin to improve on ourselves? Why even repent if our sinfullness has already been wiped clean with no action on our part?

In Judaism as well…all the sacrifices to God were for forgiveness of sins and the OT says that blood atones for sins…thats why animal sacrifice was practiced and thats why we say that Jesus is the fullfillment of Abraham’s sacrifice, the Last sacrifice

Thats the issue that we will not agree about.

As Muslims, we believe that, i repeat, through repentence and the mercy of God we are forgiven. It is as simple as that…this is what Allah promises us…that if we sin a million times, and repent…He will forgive us. For us, the death of an innocent man, let alone one of the greatest messengers, is not neccesary.

 

[inJESUS]

I dont believe that pure=sinless… so unless we can agree on a definition for pure and impure when it comes to human nature…then i’m going to refrain from using them in this reply.

fine…if you say that human nature is not 100% pure, then it is impure correct forget about the word sinful…human nature is impure as you already said, ok?

But in terms of sin…then our sins can be completely wiped out…through repentence…there are so many instances in Islam where Allah promises to forgive us *all *

our sins yes in the Bible as well…thats why there is confession ecc…i differentiated between forgiveness of sins and the state of spiritual impurity.

So the question is : is human being spritually pure? i think your response is negative cuz you already said that humans are not 100% pure. It is this impurity that needs to be restored to purity…can you, once you become impure, return pure? please forget about sins and their forgiveness coz it’s different…can you become spiritually pure 100%?

God’s mercy is everywhere. His mercy is what keeps a mother from not abandoning her new born baby. His mercy is what makes the mother bird fly around all day to feed its young. All this is the mercy of God. You mean to tell me, you dont see God’s mercy on earth? You dont feel His mercy in your every day life?

of course, but am talking about different kind of mercy…mercy of the judgment day…if you won’t receive this mercy until you die( and of which you cant be sure), an on condition, i fail to see how you call it “mercy”…mercy, in my opinon, should be UNCONDITIONAL and proven.

Not all Christians understand original sin as it has been presented in this forum. Whether they are of a different denomination or just ignorant…i’m not sure.

yes i think they all understand this…there are theological explanations about it, but thats it’s summary.

But it is usually explained as “the inheritance of the sin of Adam and Eve” not a “tendency to sin” but the actual sin itself.

Adam represents humanity…since Adam used the freedom given to him by God and he inclined to evil, we call it original sin…now you’ll tell me : then why should i bear someone else’s sin? my resonse is ths : Adam is everyone of us…we are all like Adam…that is what is meant with inheritance.

Perfection and absolute purity belong to God. We agree, i’m sure. Because we are not perfect, we fall into error, ie. sin.

do you think the imperfect can exist with the perfect?that is, can you as an imperfect human being have the right to be with God the perfect?

Allah loves those who repent…that means He loves those that sinned and then sought His forgiveness. If we were all walking around “sinless” then what is the point of life itself.

perfect…

How do we even begin to improve on ourselves? Why even repent if our sinfullness has already been wiped clean with no action on our part?

correct.

Thats the issue that we will not agree about.

As Muslims, we believe that, i repeat, through repentence and the mercy of God we are forgiven. It is as simple as that

correct…but i gave the difference between Judaiism, Christianity verus islam…n the Bible, OT and NT, blood is shed for forgiveness of sin…Just like Abraham was about to sacrifice his only son to the forgiveness of his sin, God wanted to sacrifice His Son for ALL sins.
You have Eid el adha as well…what is its implication? why do you imitate Abraham and did you know why he was about to sacrifice his son?

For us, the death of an innocent man, let alone one of the greatest messengers, is not neccesary

that was the biggest act of love of which we can discuss later.

 

[inJESUS]

Dear inJESUS:

Before you go too far mindlessly; in your eyes:

**

• What is in fact**

sin?

• What is in fact righteousness ?
• What is in fact good?
• What is in fact evil ?

• sin and evil are your inclination to disobey God.
  Good and righteousness are your inclination to do His will.

 

[Tmaque]

Shadowcry:

I believe Human nature is pure. People are not born evil.

You believe children must be taught selfishness, jealousy, anger, pride and deceit?

I have two sons and my experience is just the opposite. All these things come naturally to my sons. I’m having to teach them selflessness, love, humility and honesty.

The negatives come naturally and must be countered with good teaching. This is not my opinion. This is fact.

 

[Faith101]

Tmaque:

You believe children must be taught selfishness, jealousy, anger, pride and deceit?

I have two sons and my experience is just the opposite. All these things come naturally to my sons. I’m having to teach them selflessness, love, humility and honesty.

The negatives come naturally and must be countered with good teaching. This is not my opinion. This is fact.

I think we understand “pure” differently. We believe that a person is born pure, meaning free of any original sin. You understand it to be free from the ability, or the characteristics of a human nature, that enables and allows one to sin.

As Muslims we believe everyone, save a few people, have a little bit of blackness in their hearts…then depending on their actions and deeds, that blackness will either engulf them or it will be so small, almost completly conquered.

 

[Faith101]

fine…if you say that human nature is not 100% pure, then it is impure correct forget about the word sinful…human nature is impure as you already said, ok?

Is there a specific reason you are stuck on these words? Purity is something that has a wide variety of meanings depending on what you are using to desribe. Human nature is human nature. Is a fox sly because he sits in wait for his prey, and then sneakily attacks it? No, he is a fox. We are humans, we are not perfect, therefore we have the ability to sin. Again, perfection and absolute purity are attributes of God ALONE.

yes in the Bible as well…thats why there is confession ecc…i differentiated between forgiveness of sins and the state of spiritual impurity.

When we repent to God we believe the sins are wiped clean, you can say we purify ourselves. While we still have the ability to sin, because we are HUMAN and not perfect, we are not considered to be impure.

I can see the word impure being used on someone who sins and neglects to purify themselves by repenting. But i would not use the word for a pious believer who is actively and continously repenting. As Allah states in the Quran:

By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it. ANd its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right. Truly he succeeds that purifies it, and he fails that corrupts it(Quran 91:7-10)

Since I derive my beliefs from the Quran, then I would say, describing a believer, its not the difference of pure and impure, it is the differnce between active purification and inactive purification that define the state of our soul…ie, spirtual condition.

So the question is : is human being spritually pure? i think your response is negative cuz you already said that humans are not 100% pure. It is this impurity that needs to be restored to purity…can you, once you become impure, return pure? please forget about sins and their forgiveness coz it’s different…can you become spiritually pure 100%?

You are making something so simple, seem so complex.

You can become free of sin by repenting. If you want to be completley pure without the ability to sin, then that would be in Paradise. This is earth.

of course, but am talking about different kind of mercy…mercy of the judgment day…if you won’t receive this mercy until you die( and of which you cant be sure), an on condition, i fail to see how you call it “mercy”…mercy, in my opinon, should be UNCONDITIONAL and proven.

God’s mercy is everywhere…i dont even know where to begin. Dont you realize that the fact that God allows those people who disbelieve in Him to eat of His bounty a mercy? Dont you believe that God’s patience with us when we sin continously a mercy? He can wipe us out when He pleases. God’s mercy is not only for Judgmenent, its everywhere.

Adam represents humanity…since Adam used the freedom given to him by God and he inclined to evil, we call it original sin…now you’ll tell me : then why should i bear someone else’s sin? my resonse is ths : Adam is everyone of us…we are all like Adam…that is what is meant with inheritance.

What does our ability to sin have to do with Adam’s sin? We were created with that ability. Adam was not created “perfect, ie with no ability to sin” or else he would have never sinned.

 

[Faith101]

…continued

do you think the imperfect can exist with the perfect?that is, can you as an imperfect human being have the right to be with God the perfect?

How can I, a human being, ever dare to think that i can ever be perfect. Perfection belongs to the Creator, I thought we agreed on this.

God does not burden us with more than we can bear…its so simple. Sin…repent. No bloodshed required.

correct…but i gave the difference between Judaiism, Christianity verus islam…n the Bible, OT and NT, blood is shed for forgiveness of sin…Just like Abraham was about to sacrifice his only son to the forgiveness of his sin

I didnt know thats what Christianity taught about that event. Can you give me verses from the Bible to read about it?

God ordered Abraham to slaughter his son. It was a command to test the obedience of Abraham. thats it. About this, Allah said that it was **Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial **
(situation discussed in Quran 37: 102-111).

In terms of forgivenss of sin, than Allah clearly states “**And seek the forgiveness of Allah, certainly, Allah is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful” ** ( Quran 4:106)

**And whoever does evil or wrongs himself but afterwards seeks Allahs forgiveness, he will find Allah OftForgiving, Most Merciful. ** (Quran 4:110)

No where is bloodshed mentioned, its not the blood nor the meat that does anything, its the piety of the person slaughtering in their obedience to God.

It is neither their meat nor their blood that reaches Allah, but it is piety from you that reaches Him.
(Quran 22:37)

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

I think we understand “pure” differently. We believe that a person is born pure, meaning free of any original sin. You understand it to be free from the ability, or the characteristics of a human nature, that enables and allows one to sin.

As Muslims we believe everyone, save a few people, have a little bit of blackness in their hearts…then depending on their actions and deeds, that blackness will either engulf them or it will be so small, almost completly conquered.

Faith, I know you will probably ignore me, but the fact that all human beings are sinners is a confirmation that we did in fact inherit that sin committed by our first parents. Before they disobeyed God, Adam and Eve were so innocent that they did not even realize that they were naked! If was only after they sinned, that their eyes were opened and they realized their nakedness! Can you understand that?

If we had not inherited that sin of theirs, no one after Adam and Eve would have sinned, but we’re all sinners. It’s part of our human nature. A baby is only sinless until he has reached the age of reason, but as soon as he does, our sinful nature asserts itself and he begins to sin.

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

I think we understand “pure” differently. We believe that a person is born pure, meaning free of any original sin.

i think that you believe original sin is like the sin of killing , raping ecc…this is NOT original sin…
so this baby, if he is pure 100%, how will he become impure later? i believe that impurity cannot stem from purity. Shall we agree now that human nature is not pure and cannot restore what is lost?

As Muslims we believe everyone, save a few people, have a little bit of blackness in their hearts…then depending on their actions and deeds, that blackness will either engulf them or it will be so small, almost completly conquered

basically you are saying that if you were pure, but became impure, you can still return to purity?? good actions and deeds and repentance are obligatory…but do they restore the purity you lost?

In other words, human nature as you said is not 100% pure because it is not perfect…it is not perfect because it has evil as well…when there is evil, even 1%, there is no purity…you try your BEST to lean to righteousness and good, but can you restore the purity that you once lost? it’s like woman’s virginity…in very basic human language, when a woman looses her virginity (purity) she can NEVER get her innocence/purity back…

It is neither a question of good deeds nor repentance…we agree on both…it is a question of spiritual purity : can you, after becoming impure spiritually, can you return pure again as if nothing happened?

 

[inJESUS]

Is there a specific reason you are stuck on these words? Purity is something that has a wide variety of meanings depending on what you are using to desribe. Human nature is human nature. Is a fox sly because he sits in wait for his prey, and then sneakily attacks it? No, he is a fox. We are humans, we are not perfect, therefore we have the ability to sin. Again, perfection and absolute purity are attributes of God ALONE

Faith, it is very easy…do we lean to good AND bad ? if yes, we are not pure in God’s standard NOT in human standard…yes am human so i must act on my desires or on what God wants? do i ALWAYS do what God wants? simple question.

When we repent to God we believe the sins are wiped clean, you can say we purify ourselves. While we still have the ability to sin, because we are HUMAN and not perfect, we are not considered to be impure.

this ability to sin, once done, is the original sin.it is using this ability instead of righteousness…got it now?

I can see the word impure being used on someone who sins and neglects to purify themselves by repenting. But i would not use the word for a pious believer who is actively and continously repenting.

repentance cannot restore you back the purity you lost…it makes you strive to become better, but it does not restore back your SPIRITUAL VIRGINITY.

Since I derive my beliefs from the Quran, then I would say, describing a believer, its not the difference of pure and impure, it is the differnce between active purification and inactive purification that define the state of our soul…ie, spirtual condition.

irrelevant for one reason : we are going before this stage…we are tackling the stage of freedom…what did Adam do when he was given this freedom? he leaned toward evil instead of righteousness.

You are making something so simple, seem so complex.

You can become free of sin by repenting. If you want to be completley pure without the ability to sin, then that would be in Paradise. This is earth.

well, can you be with a Holy God if you’re impure? i don’t think so…so how can you restore back the spiritual purity that Adam lost in order to be able to return back to God?

God’s mercy is everywhere…i dont even know where to begin. Dont you realize that the fact that God allows those people who disbelieve in Him to eat of His bounty a mercy? Dont you believe that God’s patience with us when we sin continously a mercy? He can wipe us out when He pleases. God’s mercy is not only for Judgmenent, its everywhere.

exactly…so God’s mercy is shown perfectly on earth…i fail to see why you call it mercy on judgment day if 1- you are not sure and 2: it is conditional…i believe in an inconditional and proved mercy mercy.

What does our ability to sin have to do with Adam’s sin? We were created with that ability. Adam was not created “perfect, ie with no ability to sin” or else he would have never sinned

Adam was created with freedom…he misused it…thats original sin put simply…do you agree that we are all born free but misuse this freedom ?