Original sin (not) in Judaism

[MichaelP3]

I watched a documentary recently that touched on the subject that Judaism does not believe in Original sin. This made me wonder about something I never realized in this way.

I grew up thinking that “Jews didn’t accept Jesus and are still waiting for their Messiah”. But what do you expect of your Messiah as you don’t need a redeemer. What is the purpose of the Jewish Messiah? What will happen after He comes?

What is the Jewish take on a heaven and how will you get there?

Regards

 

[dmar198]

I watched a documentary recently that touched on the subject that Judaism does not believe in Original sin. This made me wonder about something I never realized in this way.

I grew up thinking that “Jews didn’t accept Jesus and are still waiting for their Messiah”. But what do you expect of your Messiah as you don’t need a redeemer. What is the purpose of the Jewish Messiah? What will happen after He comes?

What is the Jewish take on a heaven and how will you get there?

Regards

I don’t have much substance to contribute, but two thoughts came to mind that I thought were funny.

You said: “Jews didn’t accept Jesus,” but… #NotAllJews

Secondly, isn’t there a Jewish Answers Forums somewhere?

 

[MichaelP3]

I don’t have much substance to contribute, but two thoughts came to mind that I thought were funny.

You said: “Jews didn’t accept Jesus,” but… #NotAllJews

Secondly, isn’t there a Jewish Answers Forums somewhere?

Interesting response, although I would really like some insight by some people who can help me with this. I never really thought much about this before and it intrigued me?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

My understanding is that one of the main schools of Jewish thought in Jesus’ time believes that the Messiah would come to raise up the nation of Israel and establish an eternal, physical, Jewish Kingdom, similar to the kingdom of King David in the OT.

 

[susanlo]

I am not Jewish, but as a Christian I had never heard of the Doctrine of Original Sin until last year when I heard about it from Catholic friends. Many Christians do not believe in this doctrine. We believe that babies are born innocent and without the actual stain of sin - however as a child comes of age they will undoubtedly have personal sin as all mankind has a sinful nature.

My understanding is that in Judaism the bat-mitzvah at 12 years old for girls and the bar-mitzvah at 13 for boys signifies the child becoming an adult under the law and at this point being accountable to repent for sins. Before this the child may participate in atonement prayers with the family, but is viewed as innocent and not guilty of actual sin or stain. In Old Testament times as well as in Judaism today, there is no sacrifice or atonement ritual to remove the stain of Original Sin. That idea developed in Christianity in the 3rd and 4th Century.

I would think that Jewish people could believe that they need a redeemer for their personal sins. However, I do not know what the current expectations are for the Jewish Messiah.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I am not Jewish, but as a Christian I had never heard of the Doctrine of Original Sin until last year when I heard about it from Catholic friends. Many Christians do not believe in this doctrine. We believe that babies are born innocent and without the actual stain of sin - however as a child comes of age they will undoubtedly have personal sin as all mankind has a sinful nature.
.

That’s news to me. Besides the Orthodox, I thought we were all pretty much in agreement on that as the reformers relied so much on Augustine for their belief system.

**Original sin in mainstream Protestantism **

The notion of original sin as interpreted by Augustine of Hippo was affirmed by the Protestant Reformers Martin Luther and John Calvin. Both Luther and Calvin agreed that humans inherit Adamic guilt and are in a state of sin from the moment of conception. This inherently sinful nature (the basis for the Calvinistic doctrine of “total depravity”) results in a complete alienation from God and the total inability of humans to achieve reconciliation with God based on their own abilities. Not only do individuals inherit a sinful nature due to Adam’s fall, but since he was the federal head and representative of the human race, all whom he represented inherit the guilt of his sin by imputation.

Because of this conundrum, Protestants believe that God the Father sent Jesus into the world. The personhood, life, ministry, suffering, and death of Jesus, as God incarnate in human flesh, is meant to be the atonement for original sin as well as actual sins; this atonement is according to some rendered fully effective by the Resurrection of Jesus.
christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Original_sin

What denomination are you if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

For anyone who doesn’t believe in original sin(EO’s, Jews or whoever) Why is it that babies know nothing, but how to say the word NO !!?!?!??

Seriously, nobody has to teach them to be all ugly and say no, they just do it lol

 

[dmar198]

I am not Jewish, but as a Christian I had never heard of the Doctrine of Original Sin until last year when I heard about it from Catholic friends. Many Christians do not believe in this doctrine. We believe that babies are born innocent and without the actual stain of sin - however as a child comes of age they will undoubtedly have personal sin as all mankind has a sinful nature.

My understanding is that in Judaism the bat-mitzvah at 12 years old for girls and the bar-mitzvah at 13 for boys signifies the child becoming an adult under the law and at this point being accountable to repent for sins. Before this the child may participate in atonement prayers with the family, but is viewed as innocent and not guilty of actual sin or stain. In Old Testament times as well as in Judaism today, there is no sacrifice or atonement ritual to remove the stain of Original Sin. That idea developed in Christianity in the 3rd and 4th Century.

I would think that Jewish people could believe that they need a redeemer for their personal sins. However, I do not know what the current expectations are for the Jewish Messiah.

Thank you for your comments, I am interested in your answer to a dilemma I once heard about Christians who don’t believe in original sin. Please be aware that I’m not trying to be combative with this question, it’s a dilemma that I’m not sure how an evangelical would respond to. If you think that babies do not have original sin, does that mean they don’t need salvation? If they already have salvation, when do they lose it?

I ask because it seems to me that the non-original sin position means that a child has salvation from conception onward, but at some point, they are at a point where they don’t have it anymore and need to accept Jesus to get saved. Is that your position? If so, when do children lose salvation?

To me, the Catholic position is much more consistent because we have one of the same principles protestants do, that everyone needs the grace of Jesus, but we apply it to children too. That’s one reason why we baptize them: to get them saved! But I’m just not sure how the protestant position works. If they have no personal sin And no original sin, what do they need to be saved for, from your perspective? (Or do they need to be saved at all, in your belief?) Thank you.

 

[susanlo]

That’s news to me. Besides the Orthodox, I thought we were all pretty much in agreement on that as the reformers relied so much on Augustine for their belief system.

What denomination are you if you don’t mind me asking?

As I understand it, most churches that practice infant baptism believe that babies are born stained with sin in some way. Denominations that do not practice infant baptism believe that children are innocent until they become aware of their sinfulness and their need for a savior. I am sure there are some denominations that don’t fit neatly into one of these groups - but I think that is a general summary.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

But what do you expect of your Messiah as you don’t need a redeemer. What is the purpose of the Jewish Messiah? What will happen after He comes?

This should be a good, basic starting point:

Wikipedia article on the Messiah in Judiasm

Orthodox views have generally held that the Messiah will be descended from his father through the line of King David, and will gather the Jews back into the Land of Israel, usher in an era of peace, build the Third Temple, father a male heir, re-institute the Sanhedrin, and so on. Jewish tradition alludes to two redeemers, both of whom are called mashiach and are involved in ushering in the Messianic age: Mashiach ben David; and Mashiach ben Yosef. In general, the term Messiah unqualified refers to Mashiach ben David (Messiah, son of David).

 

[susanlo]

Thank you for your comments, I am interested in your answer to a dilemma I once heard about Christians who don’t believe in original sin. Please be aware that I’m not trying to be combative with this question, it’s a dilemma that I’m not sure how an evangelical would respond to. If you think that babies do not have original sin, does that mean they don’t need salvation? If they already have salvation, when do they lose it?

I ask because it seems to me that the non-original sin position means that a child has salvation from conception onward, but at some point, they are at a point where they don’t have it anymore and need to accept Jesus to get saved. Is that your position? If so, when do children lose salvation?

To me, the Catholic position is much more consistent because we believe that everyone needs the grace of Jesus, including children. That’s one reason why we baptize them: to get them saved! But I’m just not sure how the protestant position works. Thank you.

I believe a baby is innocent because they are not guilty of committing a sin. A Catholic or other Christian who would baptize a newborn would see that child as innocent after baptism. Both groups would look at a 2 year old who “steals” a cookie as innocent and not really capable of understanding this as wrong. Both groups would feel that as the child approaches the teen years he or she is capable of understanding right from wrong and recognizing that he or she is a sinner. It may not happen suddenly on one certain birthday - like all of a sudden at the 7th birthday or 12th birthday the child instantly understands right from wrong. But most children between these years develop this understanding.

I struggle with the Original Sin position because if a baby is sinful until baptism, do all babies who die before birth or before baptism receive punishment? Would a just God treat 2 babies who die in the NICU differently because one had water applied to their forehead and the other one didn’t? That doesn’t really make sense to me.

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Luke 18:16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Who else did Jesus say was worthy of the kingdom of heaven/God? Everyone else was given instructions to repent, be born again, sell everything and give it to the poor, etc. etc. These unbaptized children belonged to the kingdom of God just as they were.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

As I understand it, most churches that practice infant baptism believe that babies are born stained with sin in some way. Denominations that do not practice infant baptism believe that children are innocent until they become aware of their sinfulness and their need for a savior. I am sure there are some denominations that don’t fit neatly into one of these groups - but I think that is a general summary.

I started out non-denom fundamentalist(one of the largest mainstream churches in the country) and they didn’t baptize babies and they*** most definitely*** preached original sin.

And southern Baptists, who make up much of protestant Christianity in the USA, also believe in original sin and do not baptize infants.

One long-term result of “the fall” was that all of their descendants were born in a state of “original sin”. One consequence of original sin is that every person’s normal destination at death is Hell, where they will be eternally tortured without any hope of mercy or relief. Another result had been an unbridgeable chasm between God and humanity; reconciliation and avoidance of Hell can only be achieved through the individual becoming “saved.”

religioustolerance.org/chr_savs.htm

Now that is not to say they believe God is throwing babies into hell, they believe in His mercy they will be saved.

So no offense intended, but this is bizarre as I have never encountered a non-Orthodox Christian who said they did not believe in it. Maybe it’s just my area of the country or something, but I am intrigued now as I thought we all believed in it.(again the Augustine connection between our faiths) That’s why I inquired about your denomination. I’d like to know who does not believe in it as they would definitely be in the minority.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Very well, forget the EO’s for a second, do you have a logical explanation to the question asked?

thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

I started out non-denom fundamentalist(one of the largest mainstream churches in the country) and they didn’t baptize babies and they*** most definitely*** preached original sin.

And southern Baptists, who make up much of protestant Christianity in the USA, also believe in original sin and do not baptize infants.

Honestly this is new to me as Protestants, at least that I know or hear, do not believe in original sin. This is an issue where they criticize Catholicism and how boring it is to defend against this umpteen of times.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Honestly this is new to me as Protestants, at least that I know or hear, do not believe in original sin. This is an issue where they criticize Catholicism and how boring it is to defend against this umpteen of times.

I think the Church of Christ doesn’t believe in original sin, but nearly all other non-Catholic Christian churches do.

Those Protestants that believe in total depravity specifically use original sin as a reason for it.

 

[Wannano]

I started out non-denom fundamentalist(one of the largest mainstream churches in the country) and they didn’t baptize babies and they*** most definitely*** preached original sin.

And southern Baptists, who make up much of protestant Christianity in the USA, also believe in original sin and do not baptize infants.

Now that is not to say they believe God is throwing babies into hell, they believe in His mercy they will be saved.

So no offense intended, but this is bizarre as I have never encountered a non-Orthodox Christian who said they did not believe in it. Maybe it’s just my area of the country or something, but I am intrigued now as I thought we all believed in it.(again the Augustine connection between our faiths) That’s why I inquired about your denomination. I’d like to know who does not believe in it as they would definitely be in the minority.

LA, from what I have observed of you I would be surprised if you are inferring that to be in a minority automatically makes you wrong…

 

[Reuben_J]

I think the Church of Christ doesn’t believe in original sin, but nearly all other non-Catholic Christian churches do.

Those Protestants that believe in total depravity specifically use original sin as a reason for it.

Thanks for the information. Not something (original sin) that I particularly like to speak on but it’s good to know that there are non-Catholic Christians who share the same belief.

 

[Wannano]

Thank you for your comments, I am interested in your answer to a dilemma I once heard about Christians who don’t believe in original sin. Please be aware that I’m not trying to be combative with this question, it’s a dilemma that I’m not sure how an evangelical would respond to. If you think that babies do not have original sin, does that mean they don’t need salvation? If they already have salvation, when do they lose it?

I ask because it seems to me that the non-original sin position means that a child has salvation from conception onward, but at some point, they are at a point where they don’t have it anymore and need to accept Jesus to get saved. Is that your position? If so, when do children lose salvation?

To me, the Catholic position is much more consistent because we have one of the same principles protestants do, that everyone needs the grace of Jesus, but we apply it to children too. That’s one reason why we baptize them: to get them saved! But I’m just not sure how the protestant position works. If they have no personal sin And no original sin, what do they need to be saved for, from your perspective? (Or do they need to be saved at all, in your belief?) Thank you.

I am sure that I am right in saying that Catholicism teaches that Jesus was fully human as well, correct? Was he then born with original sin?

 

[campeador]

This Jewish author seems to have a good understanding of original sin:

O Adam, what have you done? For though it was you who sinned, the fall was not yours alone, but ours also who are your descendants. 2 Esdras 7:118

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Honestly this is new to me as Protestants, at least that I know or hear, do not believe in original sin. This is an issue where they criticize Catholicism and how boring it is to defend against this umpteen of times.

Well, they believe in it they just don’t typically think baptism washes it away. If that were the case, then they would all be baptizing babies. And I don’t think they see the necessity in washing it away as it’s understood to be a natural occurrence from birth. tbh. Therefore, babies will not be held accountable for something they did not personally do. I think perhaps the “limbo” Catholic theory turned them off and so this is yet another attempt to distance themselves from Rome.

And even in the Anglican church I went to, I was told that while special graces are received in baptism, the main point is the parents making their pledge over that child to raise him/her as a Christian.