Original sin of a sexual nature? - revisited

[Tis_Bearself]

Adam and Eve apparently did not conceive any offspring before they had committed the first sin. But why not? It seems that prior to the Fall, Adam and Eve were either not having sexual relations, or they did so without experiencing climax in a way that would lead to conception.

I’m sure you realize that not every act of sex, climax or no climax, results in conception. It’s also not necessary for either party to climax in order to conceive.

My parents were married for 2 years and having sex regularly with no form of natural or artificial contraception (and presumably enjoying it quite a bit from the little my mother shared with me about her private life), before I happened to come along. There are many couples with similar timelines.

Furthermore, the Fall might have happened in quite a short time frame after Adam and Eve were created.

 

[neophyte]

This is a totally bizarre thread. If the achievment of orgasm was a sin before the fall, it must be a sin now. But it is not a sin now, therefore it wasn’t then either.

God created us such that intercourse is necessary for procreation, with orgasm as an intrinsic and necessary (at least for the man) part of the act, and commanded us to do it.There is no other way for us to reproduce. Therefore, if it’s true that it is a sin to reach orgasm, then that means that God commanded Adam and Eve to commit a sin. This is totally contrary to God’s nature, and to say it’s true is blasphemous.

 

[Hodos]

I think you are making a lot of leaps in logic that the text of Genesis 1-3 does not support. Try not to overthink it and just roll with what Genesis gives us.

 

[Roguish]

Thank you all for your answers. However, the answers given do not (and cannot) refute that the RCC teaching on the inheritance of original sin implies that Adam and Eve did not conceive of offspring before the Fall. This much is undeniable: Adam and Eve may or may not have been engaging in intercourse prior to the Fall, but in any case no children came of it. So obviously something changed (w.r.t. sexual behavior and/or fertility) when the Fall occurred, because after that Adam and Eve did conceive children.

The point made by some that in my reasoning God seems to reward the original sin, is interesting. But this is only an observation of what appears to be implied, not a refutation of the argument. Besides, the perception that begetting children (who are affected by original sin) is a reward for the parents is not necessarily correct.

 

[Hodos]

Again, you are making assumptions that are not supported by scripture. Instead of trying to explain what the Bible is silent about, just accept it as is.

 

[Roguish]

you are making assumptions that are not supported by scripture.

On the contrary. The Genesis narrative is the very source of the RCC teaching that we are discussing here. It directly supports the point that there was no offspring prior to the Fall.

Your point that we should not try to explain what the Bible is silent about, is fine, but this is a personal preference of yours. My preference is to be open to deeper interpretations when a good argument for such interpretations exists, as I believe to be the case here.

 

[Hodos]

On the contrary. The Genesis narrative is the very source of the RCC teaching that we are discussing here. It directly supports the point that there was no offspring prior to the Fall.

No, was speaking of your assumption that somehow Adam and Eve were prevented from conceiving (which is contrary to the blessing provided in Genesis 1, and the reason for the institution of marriage provided in Genesis 2), or that the fall occurred many years from the creation of man (Genesis is silent on how long Adam and Eve were alive before the Fall). Again, you are attempting to add something to scripture that is not born by the text.

 

[Vico]

…
Your points noted, but they don’t address what I have pointed out, i.e. that the doctrine on the inheritance of original sin implies that all offspring were conceived post-Fall.
…

I see no implication like that. Can you go into detail?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So obviously something changed (w.r.t. sexual behavior and/or fertility) when the Fall occurred, because after that Adam and Eve did conceive children.

Eve simply did not get pregnant until after the Fall.
I have no idea why people on here seem to think that a woman gets pregnant every time a man and a woman have intercourse. Anyone who has had basic sex ed knows that is not the case.

And as someone else pointed out, Genesis is silent on the amount of time between the creation of Adam and Eve and the fall. It could have been 24 earthly hours for all we know.

 

[neophyte]

So obviously something changed…

That’s not obvious at all, there are a number of alternative explanations that don’t require such strained credulity but that you dismiss out of hand for no good reason. But even if you’re right that doesn’t remotely support the strange notion that the first sin was reaching orgasm while engaging in the marital act.

 

[Benadam]

The sexual faculties were completely obedient to the will. There were no involuntary movements of the body. There was no urge to reproduce that demanded relief. After the fall the body informed the intellect of its state because the involuntary movements of the body made it visible. They covered their bodies. Then God made animal skins to cover them.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

There were no involuntary movements of the body.

Then they would’ve had to deliberately will every heartbeat and every breath. That’s a looooot of work just to keep oneself from keeling over.

 

[Benadam]

Our will permitted continuos movements or automatic responses but they submitted to the will.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Our will permitted continuos movements or automatic responses but they submitted to the will.

That’s paradoxical.

 

[Benadam]

That’s paradoxical.

Not really. One doesn’t have to have conscious control of processes to be able will them or not… An example would be the life threatening experience of battle compared to the awe inspiring experience of a divine revelation. The memory of the divine revelation can be stored in the unconscious in the P file for ponder. We want this memory to be spontaneously recalled and it is. Emotion and memory work together. When our environment offers evidence for a resolution to something pondered, the memory of what is pondered is spontaneously recalled because of the emotion attached to it. It is permitted by the will.

In combat the intense emotion of a life threatening environment is stored in the unconscious involuntarily and involuntarily recalled when the environment begins being similar to the life threatening situation stored in our memory. It is not permitted but involuntary. It is PTSD. Good for animals but not for a rational creature. The pondered revelation is permitted and recalled spontaneously…The life threatening situation is stored involuntarily and recalled involuntarily. Both are recalled spontaneously according to environment.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Argument from silence is very wobbly.

The Bible does not tell us that Adam and Eve ever stubbed their toe, ever ate a fish, ever lit a fire, ever weaved a basket, ever urinated, it does not say that Eve ever slept nor that Adam slept more than one time. Heck, we don’t even have an account of any marriage ceremony.

Scripture is not meant to be a courtroom document that details each aspect of every day nor is Scripture a scientific text book.

 

[Roguish]

This is a totally bizarre thread. If the achievment of orgasm was a sin before the fall, it must be a sin now.

@neophyte Bizarre doesn’t begin to describe it! As for you’re inference regarding the sinfulness of orgasm (or rather: ej***lation), that does seem to follow, right?

God commanded Adam and Eve to commit a sin . This is totally contrary to God’s nature, and to say it’s true is blasphemous.

Sure would be blasphemous if that followed from the original argument, but it doesn’t. Conception does not necessarily require orgasm as the common man experiences it. (This is not some esoteric stuff. This is so even from a plain biological point of view.)

But anyway, that’s all kinda beside the point. The point is simply that something must have changed w.r.t. Adam and Eve’s sexuality when the Fall happened, because prior to it they did not conceive offspring, and after it they did. This much is obvious. Whether we can identify this unknown change in their sexuality as the original sin, is less evident, but it’s a possibility.

 

[Socrates92]

They just fall into sin really quickly… Doesn’t seem that complicated an issue.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Sure would be blasphemous if that followed from the original argument, but it doesn’t. Conception does not necessarily require orgasm as the common man experiences it. (This is not some esoteric stuff. This is so even from a plain biological point of view.)

But anyway, that’s all kinda beside the point. The point is simply that something must have changed w.r.t. Adam and Eve’s sexuality when the Fall happened, because prior to it they did not conceive offspring, and after it they did. This much is obvious. Whether we can identify this unknown change in their sexuality as the original sin, is less evident, but it’s a possibility.

Dude. This is weird.

 

[Roguish]

They just fall into sin really quickly… Doesn’t seem that complicated an issue.

Hey, finally an explanation that I was also thinking of But, it is entirely ad-hoc, of course, so not very compelling. Maybe Adam and Eve lapsed into sin very shortly after they were created; or maybe a thousand years later. There’s no telling either way.