Original sin or Personal sin

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jacobaer said:
Thank, grannmh,

Yes, I am familiar with that Church teaching, and assent to it.

But I have discovered that there is a wide latitude within the Church on the meaning of the atonement of Christ on the Cross.
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My first guess in this post is that what you are describing as a wide latitude within the Church, is the huge variety of writings from philosophers to poets. There are two basic paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 21 & 22. What is important about them is the clarification of small print. This indicates observations of an historical or apologetic nature, or supplementary doctrinal explanations.

In other words, there are a variety of ways to seek understanding of Our Lord’s Sacrifice on the cross. What has to be kept in mind is that Christ’s Sacrifice is not an either-or situation; it is a both-and situation. Christ is truly Divine and truly man. Post 196 looks at the “personal sin” issue. In addition, the Original Sin issue is foundational for Catholicism.
So my question to you is, does the Church teach that our Lord made atonement on the Cross for our personal sins?

Did He die for our personal sins, or for a general principle of sin, without it being personal, our personal sins?

Peace,
jacobaer
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From what I read off CAF, there are a lot of people (including a few Catholics) who substitute
“a general principle of sin” for the Catholic teaching on the historical reality of the first human’s “Original Sin.” We Catholics cannot tamper with the truths of Original Sin without undermining the mystery of Christ. (Information source. CCC 389)
Original Sin is real because Jesus Christ’s Divine atonement unto death is real.

As for the other part of the both-and situation of Christ hanging bloody on the cross. My second guess in this post is that the “personal sins bit” is slightly over-rated in the general sense. But in the particular sense, we find that God loves all of us so much that He gave His only Son (Information source. John 3: 16-17). This means that we will never be denied forgiveness for our personal sins because Christ died for these sins; therefore, these sins do not have the ultimate power to prevent us from reaching out to God.
From CCC paragraph 1260
**1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Divine_Mercy_(Adolf_Hyla_painting)2007-08-16.jpg

 
javid said:
Dear Vico

If you accept that a Just Judge can let a sinless one be suffered and crucified for another one, just because God did it before, then it will be possible to accept your view.
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So in post 139 you asked: “Didn’t God can forgive us with no suffering and death for the volunteer?”

No, the plan of salvation that God has designed is perfect. It was also according to the scriptures: 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; 4 that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; 5 that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
The Catholic teaching is that Christ died for the original sin of Adam which effects all mankind, and also to help individuals with personal sin. The individual joins with Christ’s sacrifice through free will. The joining is important!
 
Vico said:
So in post 139 you asked: “Didn’t God can forgive us with no suffering and death for the volunteer?”

No, the plan of salvation that God has designed is perfect. It was also according to the scriptures: 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; 4 that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; 5 that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve.
The Catholic teaching is that Christ died for the original sin of Adam which effects all mankind, and also to help individuals with personal sin. The individual joins with Christ’s sacrifice through free will. The joining is important!
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Dear Vico

Please Give a refrence that shows Lord Jesus just helped us about personal sins and didn’t give price instead of us.
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

Please Give a refrence that shows Lord Jesus just helped us about personal sins and didn’t give price instead of us.
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I wrote: “The Catholic teaching is that Christ died for the original sin of Adam which effects all mankind, and also to help individuals with personal sin. The individual joins with Christ’s sacrifice through free will. The joining is important!”

That does not say that Christ did not substitute for us. It does say that we must join with it. From the Catholic Encyclopedia: “the just of the Old Law owed their salvation to the anticipated merits of the coming Messias and the damned lost their souls because they spurned the graces of illumination and good will which God granted them in prevision of the saving works of the Redeemer.”
newadvent.org/cathen/12677d.htm

Catechism:"He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures"
601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.397 Citing a confession of faith that he himself had “received”, St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."398 In particular Jesus’ redemptive death fulfills Isaiah’s prophecy of the suffering Servant.399 Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God’s suffering Servant.400 After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.401
CCC 1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:1
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.2

1 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529.
2 Rom 3:21-26.
​
 
Dear Vico

How can I accept that it is fair while if judge do it, no one accepts that it is fair? justice must be absolute concept. We can’t say it is just to God and it is unjust to human.
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

How can I accept that it is fair while if judge do it, no one accepts that it is fair? justice must be absolute concept. We can’t say it is just to God and it is unjust to human.
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You don’t say how we can compare what God does with what man does. God is the creator and all goodness so His justice is the standard. As the Gospel states,
Matthew 20
11 And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house,
12 Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats.
13 But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny?
14 Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee.
15 Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?
16 So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.
 
Vico said:
You don’t say how we can compare what God does with what man does. God is the creator and all goodness so His justice is the standard. As the Gospel states,
Matthew 20
11 And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house,
12 Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats.
13 But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny?
14 Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee.
15 Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?
16 So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.
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If what God does is just, so if a human does it, it is just, too.
 
May I point out that the transmission of the contracted State of Original Sin by propagation occurs because all humankind was in Adam “as one body of one man.”

(Information source. The universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 404)
 
javid said:
If what God does is just, so if a human does it, it is just, too.
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A human does not have divine power. What act are you thinking of?

Deuteronomy 32
4 The works of God are perfect, and all his ways are judgments: God is faithful and without any iniquity, he is just and right.
…
36 The Lord will judge his people, and will have mercy on his servants : he shall see that their hand is weakened, and that they who were shut up have also failed, and they that remained are consumed.
…
**43 **Praise his people, ye nations, for he will revenge the blood of his servants: and will render vengeance to their enemies, and he will be merciful to the land of his people.
 
Vico said:
A human does not have divine power. What act are you thinking of?

Deuteronomy 32
4 The works of God are perfect, and all his ways are judgments: God is faithful and without any iniquity, he is just and right.
…
36 The Lord will judge his people, and will have mercy on his servants : he shall see that their hand is weakened, and that they who were shut up have also failed, and they that remained are consumed.
…
**43 **Praise his people, ye nations, for he will revenge the blood of his servants: and will render vengeance to their enemies, and he will be merciful to the land of his people.
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Dear Vico

Did I say “God Can’t”? If I said this, I am so Sorry! I’m not talking on divine power. Yes, God has the power to every think and no body can stop him. But problem is on judgment.

Can we imagine that God fools people, while he is just? Can we imagine that he sends good guys to damned part of hell, while he is just? Good is Good and Bad is Bad. We can’t say Bad is God, Because God done it! So we need to explain that how can we imagine a just God, do that Job.

My Problem of sacrifice of Lord Jesus is not power of God. God let a sinless one be suffered, and he was willing and content to this. So we need a explanation, How can God, as most gracious one, lets and desires to suffering of a sinless one, even if that sinless one does accept this destiny.

You say it is fair, OK I accept it by my faith, But now, I need a reason too, so say me how it is fair.
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

Did I say “God Can’t”? If I said this, I am so Sorry! I’m not talking on divine power. Yes, God has the power to every think and no body can stop him. But problem is on judgment.

Can we imagine that God fools people, while he is just? Can we imagine that he sends good guys to damned part of hell, while he is just? Good is Good and Bad is Bad. We can’t say Bad is God, Because God done it! So we need to explain that how can we imagine a just God, do that Job.

My Problem of sacrifice of Lord Jesus is not power of God. God let a sinless one be suffered, and he was willing and content to this. So we need a explanation, How can God, as most gracious one, lets and desires to suffering of a sinless one, even if that sinless one does accept this destiny.

You say it is fair, OK I accept it by my faith, But now, I need a reason too, so say me how it is fair.
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You may as well ask, how is it just that God allowed one man Adam, to bring death to mankind? Because of Love, the incarnation occurred. Mankind needed healing from the damage done by Adam. That required a man according to scripture, the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. Also see:
(Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)

Jesus is true God and true man and chose to become incarnate for love of mankind.John 8:57-58 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham. Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
John 3:16
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

Did I say “God Can’t”? If I said this, I am so Sorry! I’m not talking on divine power. Yes, God has the power to every think and no body can stop him. But problem is on judgment.

Can we imagine that God fools people, while he is just? Can we imagine that he sends good guys to damned part of hell, while he is just? Good is Good and Bad is Bad. We can’t say Bad is God, Because God done it! So we need to explain that how can we imagine a just God, do that Job.

My Problem of sacrifice of Lord Jesus is not power of God. God let a sinless one be suffered, and he was willing and content to this. So we need a explanation, How can God, as most gracious one, lets and desires to suffering of a sinless one, even if that sinless one does accept this destiny.

You say it is fair, OK I accept it by my faith, But now, I need a reason too, so say me how it is fair.
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Please, what exactly is the “sinless one’s” nature or kind as in species?
 
Vico said:
You may as well ask, how is it just that God allowed one man Adam, to bring death to mankind? Because of Love, the incarnation occurred. Mankind needed healing from the damage done by Adam. That required a man according to scripture, the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. Also see:
(Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)

Jesus is true God and true man and chose to become incarnate for love of mankind.John 8:57-58 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham. Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
John 3:16
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Dear Vico

You just answered me by asking a question, instead of solving the problem! If I can’t answer it, I’ll just have another problem!

But think life is a gift from God. He can get it back, any time. But about the sacrifice of Lord Jesus, there is a suffering.

You are just talking about love, again and again.
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

You just answered me by asking a question, instead of solving the problem! If I can’t answer it, I’ll just have another problem!

But think life is a gift from God. He can get it back, any time. But about the sacrifice of Lord Jesus, there is a suffering.

You are just talking about love, again and again.
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You seem to resist good counsel for some reason, insisting that God tortured Jesus, ignoring the Trinity. But God allowed Himself to be tortured. Human sin tortured God because that’s what sin is all about; it hates, opposes, rejects, rebels against and seeks to kill God, so sinners can play God themselves. So if God elects to dramatically show His love and forgiveness in spite of the worst that human sin would aspire to do against Him, then so be it!

Now we know the extent of His love! Now we know how far He would go for us, His lost and wayward creation. And He did it in such a way that we can authentically relate to. His love knows no bounds! His love isn’t mere talk. He loves. He is love. Maybe you don’t really know or accept that. But keep looking to the cross, where sin encounters love. Where our sinfulness is definitively shown to be true, in all it’s ugliness, and God’s love is proven to be greater yet, in all it’s beauty. Where sin is destroyed, triumphed over, if we accept the forgiveness He offers from the cross, and we follow Him in our own death to sin. And then, since sin brought death to the world, by the resurrection we now follow Him in victory over death, our final enemy.

Who but a God would have such a plan? Who but God could do such a thing? I never would’ve conceived such an idea-meant to draw us to Himself-to His kind and humble way, without force-in contrast with human hate and pride and violence. Any other God I’ve heard of is far less of a God than that.
 
Dear Fhansen

I’m just looking for a reasonable faith. I am a believer and have no doubt.

But have a right to try use reasons to a better faith.

A reason, as a explanation can solve problem for some ones and can’t for the others.

It is not my fault.
 
javid said:
Dear Fhansen

I’m just looking for a reasonable faith. I am a believer and have no doubt.

But have a right to try use reasons to a better faith.

A reason, as a explanation can solve problem for some ones and can’t for the others.

It is not my fault.
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I’m just saying that the suffering, the injustice, was perpetrated by man, and God endured it, revealing the real truth of our relationship with Him. Man might pay lip-service to God but his heart is far from Him-and he likes it that way. God, on the other hand, would go to any extreme for man, except to force Himself on us against our wills. That’s the message of the cross. And I don’t see it as unreasonable, just enlightening. The light came into the world, and man perceived it not.
 
javid said:
Dear Vico

You just answered me by asking a question, instead of solving the problem! If I can’t answer it, I’ll just have another problem!

But think life is a gift from God. He can get it back, any time. But about the sacrifice of Lord Jesus, there is a suffering.

You are just talking about love, again and again.
Click to expand...
This is my answer, that followed the question.

Because of Love, the incarnation occurred. Mankind needed healing from the damage done by Adam. That required a man according to scripture, the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. Also see:
(Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)

Jesus is true God and true man and chose to become incarnate for love of mankind.John 8:57-58 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham. Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
John 3:16
 
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