Original sin or Personal sin

[grannymh]

OK sir. Thank you. But my problem is on justice.

My apology. I am not sure that I totally understand the justice issue. It certainly does not apply to God Who being Divine does not die.

As I learned centuries ago , Adam the human creature sinned against God the Divine Creator. Adam, as a human creature is not on the same level as God and therefore he was incapable of repairing the broken relationship between humanity and Divinity. The justice issue was Adam’s problem because he could not offer justice on a Divine level.

The Second Person of the Holy Trinity assumed, not absorbed, human nature. Jesus Christ being both True God *and *True Man could repair the shattered relationship between humanity and Divinity. And He did just that when He was victorious over death.

 

[javid]

But that’s what I’ve been trying to get at, I think. You’ve been asking how it is just-and reasonable-to believe that God would punish or allow to be punished a sinless one for the sins of another. But this brings us to the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus is not only the Son of God; He’s God the Son. So God didn’t merely let Jesus to be punished for our sins; rather, through Jesus, God, Himself, takes on the punishment. And if, because of His love for us and His knowledge of our lost and hopeless condition, which cannot improve without His help, He undertakes to right our unjust condition Himself, I don’t know why that would be unreasonable.

God’s overall purpose in all of this from creation through the Fall of man, through His dealings with His chosen people, and through the advent and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, is to* perfect His creation*, to gradually reveal Himself to an obstinate species, as they’ve been prepared and the time is ripe, endeavoring to draw them, without coercion, into alignment with His perfect will. In fact, the Church teaches that God created His world “in statu viae”, in a “state of journeying” to perfection. And He’s willing to do whatever it takes to achieve His ends short of forcing His will upon us, even sacrificing Himself in a way we can identify with, in human form, so we doubters may come to know of His sincerity, kindness, goodness, mercy, humility, even, and love. God is the opposite of the human concept of God. To the extent that we play God, which we do in our fallen state in many ways, large and small, throughout each day, we’re aloof, superior, arrogant, dominating, selfish, and proud. God has no need for that. And He proved it especially well on the cross.

Dear fhansen

After many posts you don’t read my words carefully! Have anoher look, please: “if some one bother you, and the judge says I will be punished instead of him or he says my son will be punished instead of him; Do you think it is justly? If yes, say me how! He didn’t punish the guilty one and just bothered another one who didn’t bother you!”

The problem is not who was the sinless one; If he is the judge or his only begotten son, The problem is How can it be just that the judge let a sinless one be punished or pay the price instead of the sinners? If He is God and can do not punish the sinners, so why he didn’t just forgive us? Can’t God do not punish any one?

 

[javid]

For the idea of justice: since Jesus is true God and man is, he was able to pay the debt due justice for all mankind. Just as Adam by personal sin brought death into the world, and by death sin, for all mankind. The creed expresses this with action:

“who for us men and for our salvation, came down, took flesh, was made man; and suffered.”

The Council of Trent declared the son a propitiator:Whence it came to pass, that the Heavenly Father, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort (2 Corinthians 1, 3), when that blessed fullness of the time was come (Galatians 4:4) sent unto men Jesus Christ, His own Son who had been, both before the Law and during the time of the Law, to many of the holy fathers announced and promised, that He might both redeem the Jews, who were under the Law and that the Gentiles who followed not after justice might attain to justice and that all men might receive the adoption of sons. Him God had proposed as a propitiator, through faith in His blood (Romans 3:25), for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world (I John ii, 2).

Dear Vico

I see no solution for my problem in your explanation. And Personal sin of Adam does not what I’ll be punished for. I am just responsible to my own personal sins.

 

[javid]

My apology. I am not sure that I totally understand the justice issue. It certainly does not apply to God Who being Divine does not die.

As I learned centuries ago , Adam the human creature sinned against God the Divine Creator. Adam, as a human creature is not on the same level as God and therefore he was incapable of repairing the broken relationship between humanity and Divinity. The justice issue was Adam’s problem because he could not offer justice on a Divine level.

The Second Person of the Holy Trinity assumed, not absorbed, human nature. Jesus Christ being both True God *and *True Man could repair the shattered relationship between humanity and Divinity. And He did just that when He was victorious over death.

ِDear Grannymh

First problem of your explanation is why God didn’t give capability of repairing the broken relationship between humanity and Divinity? If God gave this capability there were no need to sacrifice his son.

Secondly, Problem is not why this happen! The problem is: How can it be just that the judge let a sinless one be punished or pay the price instead of the sinners?

 

[grannymh]

ِDear Grannymh

First problem of your explanation is why God didn’t give capability of repairing the broken relationship between humanity and Divinity? If God gave this capability there were no need to sacrifice his son.

Secondly, Problem is not why this happen! The problem is: How can it be just that the judge let a sinless one be punished or pay the price instead of the sinners?

In the first problem, humans are not divine, which means that Adam was not capable of repairing the broken relationship. Yet, God continued to love humans. (John 3:16)

When we look at the “sinless one” ( second problem), Who restored the broken friendship by hanging on a cross, we find the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Perhaps, it is because we humans look at justice as being punished, that we miss the fact of God’s desire to have the relationship between humanity and Divinity properly restored. We also miss the point that physical death, the “price” of Original Sin, had to be conquered along with restoring spiritual life through the graces of the Sacrament of Baptism.
1 Corinthians 15: 54-55
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
Then St. Paul writes: “But thanks be to God Who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

In our human ways, we look at the Crucifixion as Christ paying the price. And that is correct, but it is not the whole story. We cannot ignore the fact that Jesus Christ is One Person with two natures, Divine and the assumed human nature. Justice between God and Adam is similar to human reparation, but it is not exactly the same as justice between two human persons. Jesus Christ is Divine because He is God and by assuming human nature including a corruptible anatomy, He could freely take the place of Adam.

Because Jesus Christ is True God and True Man, you and I and all humans can say in total truthfulness the last line of the Creed professed at Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Vico]

Dear Vico

I see no solution for my problem in your explanation. And Personal sin of Adam does not what I’ll be punished for. I am just responsible to my own personal sins.

In post # 113 you wrote:

“But my problem is why God accepted to a sinless one pay it? Is it fair? Yes Lord Jesus Loved us, but why God accepts to a sinless give price instead of the sinner.”
Just means morally right. God defines what is just.

The first thing to notice is that Mankind was suffering because of the sin of Adam; although personal for Adam, the consequence of it came to all mankind.

Secondly, Lord Jesus is God, so God payed the debt common to the whole race that closed heaven’s entrance to man. Gn. 3:24 God “placed . . . cherubim and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

For the personal sin of each one of us, committed by our personal act, we cannot free ourselves without God *first *helping us. Once we have repented, then God forgives us of our guilt, yet we still have the difficulties in this life to endure, and also must suffer from any remaining attachments to sin, until those are broken.

 

[Telstar]

Dear fhansen

The problem is not who was the sinless one; If he is the judge or his only begotten son, The problem is How can it be just that the judge let a sinless one be punished or pay the price instead of the sinners? If He is God and can do not punish the sinners, so why he didn’t just forgive us? Can’t God do not punish any one?

God could have just forgiven us, beginning with Adam and Eve, but what lesson would mankind learn from that? Would it have been fair to God for Him to allow Adam and Eve to remain in Heaven without any punishment at all, after they rebelled against Him through their disobedience? (Remember, nothing evil can remain in the presence of God, in Heaven.) They knew the consequences of their actions because God told them what would happen, but they chose to listen to Satan instead of God. All of mankind has suffered the consequences of their sin, the main one being them being expelled from Heaven and the gates closed to all of us, as well as all of us being subjected to the corruption and death of the body. Would it be ‘just’ to all those souls that suffered those consequences before Jesus came, if He decided to simply forgive everyone from that point on? Would mankind realize and truly appreciate the gift they were given, if they didn’t have to do anything in return? I don’t think so.

It took a heroic act of love by God (Jesus), to make sure we would never forget what He was willing to suffer for the love of us, to bring us back into His friendship. Without His humbling Himself, and suffering such a horrendous death at our own hands, we never would have remembered, or appreciated, the tremendous gift He gave us.

Dear Vico

I see no solution for my problem in your explanation. And Personal sin of Adam does not what I’ll be punished for. I am just responsible to my own personal sins.

We are already being ‘punished’ for Adam’s sin, because we are all subject to the corruption of our flesh (as in aging), as well as being subject to the constant temptations of the devil, and our ultimate death of the body. We can never avoid any of those consequences of Adam’s sin. That’s one of the main purposes of our Baptism, to wash away that sin, as well as our own. But, the point you keep missing is that we are not given a free ticket to Heaven, even after our Baptism. Jesus told us that we are still required to avoid all sin. Since we’re only human, it’s nearly impossible for any of us to avoid all sin. So, we are still required to confess and make restitution for those sins, even if they’re forgiven. What Jesus did was to open that narrow door of Heaven for us, but we still have to do what is expected of us, to be able to walk through it. None of us have a ‘free pass’ to get in, even if Jesus did open the door. Justice is served because we are still responsible to make amends for our sins, even if they’re forgiven. We still need to do penance for them.

So, God’s Justice is still served by our own actions. If we refuse avoid sin, or to do any penance for the sins we still commit, we can still go to Hell. Jesus was not punished for us. He simply gave us the means (the tools necessary for our salvation) to live our lives, by following His example, in order to attain Heaven. We still have to do our part. If we fail to do what we need to do, we can still lose our souls. That’s what Paul meant when he said to the Philippians, "Chapter 2: [12] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation." That’s what we all have to do.

 

[javid]

In the first problem, humans are not divine, which means that Adam was not capable of repairing the broken relationship. Yet, God continued to love humans. (John 3:16)

Dear grannymh

All of our capabilities are from God, So God could give us the capability of repairing the broken relationship. So I must Ask again: Why he didn’t us this capability?

When we look at the “sinless one” ( second problem), Who restored the broken friendship by hanging on a cross, we find the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Perhaps, it is because we humans look at justice as being punished, that we miss the fact of God’s desire to have the relationship between humanity and Divinity properly restored. We also miss the point that physical death, the “price” of Original Sin, had to be conquered along with restoring spiritual life through the graces of the Sacrament of Baptism.
1 Corinthians 15: 54-55
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
Then St. Paul writes: “But thanks be to God Who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

In our human ways, we look at the Crucifixion as Christ paying the price. And that is correct, but it is not the whole story. We cannot ignore the fact that Jesus Christ is One Person with two natures, Divine and the assumed human nature. Justice between God and Adam is similar to human reparation, but it is not exactly the same as justice between two human persons. Jesus Christ is Divine because He is God and by assuming human nature including a corruptible anatomy, He could freely take the place of Adam.

Because Jesus Christ is True God and True Man, you and I and all humans can say in total truthfulness the last line of the Creed professed at Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

It was acceptable if you said Jesus died for our original sins. But personal sins are not so. Every one must be responsible to what he/she do.

 

[javid]

In post # 113 you wrote:

“But my problem is why God accepted to a sinless one pay it? Is it fair? Yes Lord Jesus Loved us, but why God accepts to a sinless give price instead of the sinner.”
Just means morally right. God defines what is just.

The first thing to notice is that Mankind was suffering because of the sin of Adam; although personal for Adam, the consequence of it came to all mankind.

Secondly, Lord Jesus is God, so God payed the debt common to the whole race that closed heaven’s entrance to man. Gn. 3:24 God “placed . . . cherubim and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

For the personal sin of each one of us, committed by our personal act, we cannot free ourselves without God *first *helping us. Once we have repented, then God forgives us of our guilt, yet we still have the difficulties in this life to endure, and also must suffer from any remaining attachments to sin, until those are broken.

Dear Vico

I need a clear answer: Did Jesus just helped us to be forgiven or he paid the price of our sins?

Give the answer to talk(and please give a source)

 

[javid]

God could have just forgiven us, beginning with Adam and Eve, but what lesson would mankind learn from that? Would it have been fair to God for Him to allow Adam and Eve to remain in Heaven without any punishment at all, after they rebelled against Him through their disobedience? (Remember, nothing evil can remain in the presence of God, in Heaven.) They knew the consequences of their actions because God told them what would happen, but they chose to listen to Satan instead of God. All of mankind has suffered the consequences of their sin, the main one being them being expelled from Heaven and the gates closed to all of us, as well as all of us being subjected to the corruption and death of the body. Would it be ‘just’ to all those souls that suffered those consequences before Jesus came, if He decided to simply forgive everyone from that point on? Would mankind realize and truly appreciate the gift they were given, if they didn’t have to do anything in return? I don’t think so.

It took a heroic act of love by God (Jesus), to make sure we would never forget what He was willing to suffer for the love of us, to bring us back into His friendship. Without His humbling Himself, and suffering such a horrendous death at our own hands, we never would have remembered, or appreciated, the tremendous gift He gave us.

We are already being ‘punished’ for Adam’s sin, because we are all subject to the corruption of our flesh (as in aging), as well as being subject to the constant temptations of the devil, and our ultimate death of the body. We can never avoid any of those consequences of Adam’s sin. That’s one of the main purposes of our Baptism, to wash away that sin, as well as our own. But, the point you keep missing is that we are not given a free ticket to Heaven, even after our Baptism. Jesus told us that we are still required to avoid all sin. Since we’re only human, it’s nearly impossible for any of us to avoid all sin. So, we are still required to confess and make restitution for those sins, even if they’re forgiven. What Jesus did was to open that narrow door of Heaven for us, but we still have to do what is expected of us, to be able to walk through it. None of us have a ‘free pass’ to get in, even if Jesus did open the door. Justice is served because we are still responsible to make amends for our sins, even if they’re forgiven. We still need to do penance for them.

So, God’s Justice is still served by our own actions. If we refuse avoid sin, or to do any penance for the sins we still commit, we can still go to Hell. Jesus was not punished for us. He simply gave us the means (the tools necessary for our salvation) to live our lives, by following His example, in order to attain Heaven. We still have to do our part. If we fail to do what we need to do, we can still lose our souls. That’s what Paul meant when he said to the Philippians, "Chapter 2: [12] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation." That’s what we all have to do.

Dear Telstar

It is good for original sin and if Jesus just died to help us, but Did he gave the price of our sins? If yes, I need a answer for it.

 

[Vico]

Dear Vico

I need a clear answer: Did Jesus just helped us to be forgiven or he paid the price of our sins?

Give the answer to talk(and please give a source)

Both.

1. God payed the debt common to the whole race that closed heaven’s entrance to man.
2. For the personal sin of each one of us, committed by our personal act, we cannot free ourselves without God *first *helping us.

Catechism 615 "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous."443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”.444 Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.445

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

 

[grannymh]

Dear grannymh

All of our capabilities are from God, So God could give us the capability of repairing the broken relationship. So I must Ask again: Why he didn’t us this capability?

The Catholic Church teaches that there is only one God Who is the Supreme Spiritual Being. Being a Supreme Being means that there is only One Being Who can be Supreme.

Some CAF posters may remember the Supremes singing group. Each girl had the physical capability of being a member of this group because each member had the physical capability to sing. Each girl had a material decomposing anatomy with the capability to sing. Obviously, those beautiful bodies prevented them from being a Pure Spiritual Being which is not limited by deteriorating physical/material elements.

Adam could be described as a handsome male version of the Supremes.

Technically* us* are part of “the whole human race” which the Catholic Church teaches is in Adam “as one body of one man.” (Information source. Paragraph 404, the universal* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*) This truth of Catholicism does not change the fact that our (Adam’s) human nature is an unique union of both the material and the spiritual. (Information source. Paragraphs 355-368 and references in the margins, the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition)
In common language – We are not God.

Not being God, neither Adam nor ourselves have the divine capability of creating a divine relationship with the one and only Divine Creator (according to Catholicism). When there is a moment, please take notice of the wording in Genesis 1: 26-31

Back to the valid question in post 166 –
“All of our capabilities are from God, So God could give us the capability of repairing the broken relationship. So I must Ask again: Why He didn’t us this capability?”
God did give human nature the gift of being in the image of God. Being in the “image” of God does not mean that we are a clone of God. Remember, God does not need a material/physical body in order to exist in the material/physical universe. We also need to remember that the idea of duplicate gods is a no-no in the Catholic Church. From square one, Adam is not a duplicate of his Creator. Adam’s material anatomy prevents him from being a duplicate pure spirit like his Creator. Therefore being a limited creature, Adam could not create or re-create a Divine relationship with God the Creator. Adam could sing, but he was not the same as the Supreme Pure Spirit Who created him.

God did not create more gods with unlimited capabilities. That is the simple answer to the question why God did not give us (Adam) the Divine capability to re-create a Divine relationship with a totally Divine God. (Information source. Paragraphs 1730-1732, the universal* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition)*

Links to Catholic teachings

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[javid]

Both.

1. God payed the debt common to the whole race that closed heaven’s entrance to man.
2. For the personal sin of each one of us, committed by our personal act, we cannot free ourselves without God *first *helping us.

Catechism 615 "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous."443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”.444 Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.445

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

Dear Vicp

Answer clearly: Did Lord Jesus give price instead of us or just helped us to be forgiven? If you mean he gave price for our sins, the problem is on!!

 

[javid]

The Catholic Church teaches that there is only one God Who is the Supreme Spiritual Being. Being a Supreme Being means that there is only One Being Who can be Supreme.

Some CAF posters may remember the Supremes singing group. Each girl had the physical capability of being a member of this group because each member had the physical capability to sing. Each girl had a material decomposing anatomy with the capability to sing. Obviously, those beautiful bodies prevented them from being a Pure Spiritual Being which is not limited by deteriorating physical/material elements.

Adam could be described as a handsome male version of the Supremes.

Technically* us* are part of “the whole human race” which the Catholic Church teaches is in Adam “as one body of one man.” (Information source. Paragraph 404, the universal* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*) This truth of Catholicism does not change the fact that our (Adam’s) human nature is an unique union of both the material and the spiritual. (Information source. Paragraphs 355-368 and references in the margins, the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition)
In common language – We are not God.

Not being God, neither Adam nor ourselves have the divine capability of creating a divine relationship with the one and only Divine Creator (according to Catholicism). When there is a moment, please take notice of the wording in Genesis 1: 26-31

Back to the valid question in post 166 –
“All of our capabilities are from God, So God could give us the capability of repairing the broken relationship. So I must Ask again: Why He didn’t us this capability?”
God did give human nature the gift of being in the image of God. Being in the “image” of God does not mean that we are a clone of God. Remember, God does not need a material/physical body in order to exist in the material/physical universe. We also need to remember that the idea of duplicate gods is a no-no in the Catholic Church. From square one, Adam is not a duplicate of his Creator. Adam’s material anatomy prevents him from being a duplicate pure spirit like his Creator. Therefore being a limited creature, Adam could not create or re-create a Divine relationship with God the Creator. Adam could sing, but he was not the same as the Supreme Pure Spirit Who created him.

God did not create more gods with unlimited capabilities. That is the simple answer to the question why God did not give us (Adam) the Divine capability to re-create a Divine relationship with a totally Divine God. (Information source. Paragraphs 1730-1732, the universal* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition)*

Links to Catholic teachings

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Dear Grannymh

Thanks, but please answer me: Could God give us that capability or not? if he could, why he didn’t give it to us?

 

[fhansen]

Dear Grannymh

Thanks, but please answer me: Could God give us that capability or not? if he could, why he didn’t give it to us?

Maybe not. Could God create another God; perfect, with absolutely no limitations-like Himself, IOW?

 

[javid]

Maybe not. Could God create another God; perfect, with absolutely no limitations-like Himself, IOW?

Dear Fhansen

God can’t do what is impossible. A God can’t be created! So it is impossible to create a God. But is it impossible to give the capability to be forgiven?

 

[grannymh]

Dear Grannymh

Thanks, but please answer me: Could God give us that capability or not? if he could, why he didn’t give it to us?

The capability which is being described is a divine one which would re-create the divine relationship offered to humans. We are not divine. God did not make humans divine duplicates, clones, of Himself. Therefore, God did not give humans the needed Divine capability that would re-create or restore humanity’s relationship with Divinity.

Jesus Christ, as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, assumed human nature. Thus, He was both True God and True Man, that is, Jesus as One Person had both the Divine nature and the human nature. Therefore, Jesus could truly represent, or take the place of, the sinner Adam. Jesus, being God, did not have to sin in order to take the place of Adam.

In response to this question – “Did Lord Jesus give price instead of us or just helped us to be forgiven?”

Having a human nature, we could not repair the shattered relationship (price) between humanity and Divinity. However, the word “price” being a literary description needs a tad more explanation. What does price actually refer to?

One of the many ways to look at price is that the “price” of Original Sin was bodily death. Jesus conquered bodily death with His Resurrection. While we still have bodily death, this death is not permanent. Another way to look at price is that we lost Sanctifying Grace. Through the restoring grace of Jesus Christ in Baptism, we can return to Adam’s original relationship with God.

Jesus helped us to be forgiven by His own example of obedience. However, to be forgiven, one has to ask for forgiveness by truly being sorry for the sin. Jesus continues to help us ask for forgiveness of our own personal sins though the seven Catholic Sacraments. Jesus continually helps us by being present to us in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[javid]

The capability which is being described is a divine one which would re-create the divine relationship offered to humans. We are not divine. God did not make humans divine duplicates, clones, of Himself. Therefore, God did not give humans the needed Divine capability that would re-create or restore humanity’s relationship with Divinity.

Jesus Christ, as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, assumed human nature. Thus, He was both True God and True Man, that is, Jesus as One Person had both the Divine nature and the human nature. Therefore, Jesus could truly represent, or take the place of, the sinner Adam. Jesus, being God, did not have to sin in order to take the place of Adam.

In response to this question – “Did Lord Jesus give price instead of us or just helped us to be forgiven?”

Having a human nature, we could not repair the shattered relationship (price) between humanity and Divinity. However, the word “price” being a literary description needs a tad more explanation. What does price actually refer to?

One of the many ways to look at price is that the “price” of Original Sin was bodily death. Jesus conquered bodily death with His Resurrection. While we still have bodily death, this death is not permanent. Another way to look at price is that we lost Sanctifying Grace. Through the restoring grace of Jesus Christ in Baptism, we can return to Adam’s original relationship with God.

Jesus helped us to be forgiven by His own example of obedience. However, to be forgiven, one has to ask for forgiveness by truly being sorry for the sin. Jesus continues to help us ask for forgiveness of our own personal sins though the seven Catholic Sacraments. Jesus continually helps us by being present to us in the Holy Eucharist.

Dear grannymh

Thanks a lot!

How can you prove that only a divine being can improve the relation? In addition, Couldn’t God improve it without sacrificing his Only Begotten Son?

 

[Vico]

Dear Vicp

Answer clearly: Did Lord Jesus give price instead of us or just helped us to be forgiven? If you mean he gave price for our sins, the problem is on!!

The Catholic Church does not teach **penal **substitution.

The atonement of Jesus Christ is offered as a substitute for

• our works of atonement and
• sufferings of the poor souls

The teaching of atonement (developed by St. Thomas Aquinas):

1. • punishment is a kind of medicine for sin, to restore friendship
   • it is possible to substitute as long as the offender wills to join himself to the substitute,
   • “Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for His, but for our sins,”
   • the debt is not one of honor but of a moral injustice

 

[grannymh]

Dear grannymh

Thanks a lot!

How can you prove that only a divine being can improve the relation? In addition, Couldn’t God improve it without sacrificing his Only Begotten Son?

You are welcome.

My point is not concerned with improving the relationship between humanity and Divinity because according to Catholic teaching, the original unique relationship, consisting of Sanctifying Grace aka Original Holiness, was destroyed by Adam’s Original Sin.

The universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 301 teaches that God at every moment upholds and sustains us as His creatures. Thus, He enables us to act. The way we can act is explained in CCC 1730-1732.

Links to the Catechism

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Personally, I can see that the basic relationship between human creatures and their Creator can be improved by the gift of Sanctifying Grace in the Sacrament of Baptism.
In real time/history, it is Jesus Christ Who restores our relationship with God by erasing our contracted State of Original Sin. (Information source. CCC 404-406)

So that my old brain does not become confused, would you kindly decide which avenue we should discuss first. The avenue coming from “improving the relationship” or the avenue coming from “restoring the relationship”. Then we can go on the other avenue.