Original sin or Personal sin

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Hi

1 Peter 2:24
New International Version (NIV)
24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

What does “our sins” in this verse mean? Personal sins or original sin?
 
javid said:
So lord Jesus bored our personal sins too. Is it fair? A judge can’t punish a innocent one instead of a sinner.
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God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son… (Jn 3,16)
We could have never received remission of sins without him paying for them. God is just. And his justice demands eternal retribution for sins. The Son payed for all of them on the Cross. So, we can now cash out, you might say, at Confession. The account is infinite. But you have to have the money with you when you face judgment, or you will fall short. If for a single penny you will not be able to pay, you will fall short.
As for, Is it fair? No, it’s not! It wouldn’t be fair for me to pay your debt, if you couldn’t, but it’s love. And innocents need not pay, for there is no debt.
 
javid said:
So lord Jesus bored our personal sins too. Is it fair? A judge can’t punish a innocent one instead of a sinner.
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In this case it could be said that the judge, himself, decided to pay the price.
 
DavidFilmer said:
Correct. It’s not like Jesus was not in on the plan. He is the judge of heaven and earth.
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Yes, and even in the most general sense we have to keep in mind that it was God, Himself, hanging on the cross.
 
Always overwhelms me to realize what He bore for us, while He, Himself, was unblemished. We are so incredibly loved - I wish everyone knew how much!!!
 
fhansen said:
In this case it could be said that the judge, himself, decided to pay the price.
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Hi

We have two problems:

1.judge is the God and lord Jesus didn’t die on cross in his divine nature, but his devine nature. You can’t say God suffered and died.

2.On the other hand, sinner must see his retribution and a righteous judge must punish the sinner for his sins, not others.
 
javid said:
Hi

We have two problems:

1.judge is the God and lord Jesus didn’t die on cross in his divine nature, but his devine nature. You can’t say God suffered and died.
Click to expand...
First of all, I don’t know what “devine” is supposed to mean because it’s not even a real word. Jesus has a Divine nature because He is fully God, but He also has a fully human nature at the same time. His two natures are inseparable in the same way that the Holy Trinity is inseparable. While it is true that it was His human nature that died on the cross, He was still fully God at the same time. That still doesn’t mean that His human nature didn’t really suffer, because it did. He allowed Himself to be crucified. He certainly could have come down off the cross, because He always had that power. But, He followed the will of His Father, not His own will.
javid said:
2.On the other hand, sinner must see his retribution and a righteous judge must punish the sinner for his sins, not others.
Click to expand...
This is the real beauty of what Jesus did for all of humanity. He offered Himself to God the Father as a propitiation for the sins of all mankind. He did this out of pure love for us. His sacrifice opened the gates of Heaven and made it possible for us to be reconciled with God, again. The sin of Adam and Eve caused the gates of Heaven to be closed, and broke our close relationship with God. He was born without Original Sin and never committed any personal sins. So, Jesus was the pure and ‘spotless’ victim, Who offered Himself as a sacrifice for our sins. That’s why He was the only perfect victim that could fully satisfy God’s Justice. But, Jesus only opened the door for us, we still have to walk through it by following Him.
 
javid said:
Hi

We have two problems:

1.judge is the God and lord Jesus didn’t die on cross in his divine nature, but his devine nature. You can’t say God suffered and died.
Click to expand...
Well, as Telstar mentioned, Jesus is fully God-and He could never stop being God, even on the cross. And according to Matt 25 and other passages, as well as the Christian creeds, Jesus will judge the living and the dead in the end.
 
fhansen said:
Well, as Telstar mentioned, Jesus is fully God-and He could never stop being God, even on the cross. And according to Matt 25 and other passages, as well as the Christian creeds, Jesus will judge the living and the dead in the end.
Click to expand...
Hi

Dear all,

Subtilize: god can’t be suffered and dead, and as a man Lord Jesus was one man. As God he never died and as a human he died as a man. How can this take blame of all men?

On the other hand, a righteous judge, the sinner must take his blame himself. Is it justly to I do sins and a innocent man suffer for it? I can’t think so.
 
javid said:
Hi

Dear all,

Subtilize: god can’t be suffered and dead, and as a man Lord Jesus was one man. As God he never died and as a human he died as a man. How can this take blame of all men?

On the other hand, a righteous judge, the sinner must take his blame himself. Is it justly to I do sins and a innocent man suffer for it? I can’t think so.
Click to expand...
Under the old law, the unblemished lamb was sacrificed and died for the sins of all. But, the gates of Heaven were still closed to all because it wasn’t a* perfect* sacrifice. God required a perfect, pure and Holy Sacrifice to be made in order to open the gates of Heaven, or no one would ever be able to go there. Jesus was that true Lamb of God, the Pure and Perfect Sacrifice. So, if God says it’s necessary for Jesus to die in order to open the gates of Heaven, who are you to argue with God?

If you’re supposed to be a Christian, then why would you not believe the most important truth about Jesus; that He came down from Heaven to redeem all of mankind? Are you sure you’re Christian? I seriously have my doubts. :ehh:
 
javid said:
Hi

We have two problems:

1.judge is the God and lord Jesus didn’t die on cross in his divine nature, but his devine nature. You can’t say God suffered and died.
Click to expand...
Actually, yes you can. According to the communication of idioms, anything that can be attributed to one nature can be attributed to the whole. It is perfectly legitimate and orthodox to say “God died” or “God experienced death” because the One who experienced the death is the Person, not the nature.

The communication of idioms does not permit us to attribute, however to one nature what was exclusively accomplished in the other. Therefore, it is not correct to say, “Jesus died as God” because the experience of death was exclusively in his human nature.
2.On the other hand, sinner must see his retribution and a righteous judge must punish the sinner for his sins, not others.
Click to expand...
Which is why Jesus bore our sins willingly. It is wrong to say that Jesus was punished in our place, because he wasn’t. Instead, he bore our sins willingly. No one takes his life from him; it is he who lays down his life for his sheep. His was a sacrifice, not a punishment. That he was punished in our place (“penal substitution”) developed out of Calvinism.
 
javid said:
Hi

Dear all,

Subtilize: god can’t be suffered and dead, and as a man Lord Jesus was one man. As God he never died and as a human he died as a man. How can this take blame of all men?
Click to expand...
Which is why the Nestorian heresy was so insidious, because it split Jesus into two Persons. As God, Jesus cannot suffer or die, yes but as Man, he can and did. But Jesus is only one Person: the Second Person of the Trinity. That’s why although Jesus died as a man, it is perfectly legitimate to say “God died” because it is a Person who dies, not a nature. As such, as true Man, he can atone for the sins of man, but as God, only he could offer the infinite atonement for sins committed against an infinitely good and just God.
On the other hand, a righteous judge, the sinner must take his blame himself. Is it justly to I do sins and a innocent man suffer for it? I can’t think so.
Click to expand...
Because this innocent man willingly bore it; it was not imposed on him. And without God becoming man, we would have been unable to atone for our sins ourselves, no matter how badly we were punished, because no matter what, we are finite creatures, and any sin against an infinitely good and just God has infinite guilt. We could never atone for that. Hence, God, out of nothing but his love for us, took it on himself to offer that atonement, because only God can do so. But he had to do it as a man, for the sins of man.
 
javid said:
Hi

Dear all,

…

On the other hand, a righteous judge, the sinner must take his blame himself. Is it justly to I do sins and a innocent man suffer for it? I can’t think so.
Click to expand...
However, upon acceptance of a living Faith, we live our lives in Christ through the Holy Spirit. We then are part of His Body. Thus, we are communicated His sufferings on our behalf as a gift of perfect obedience to the Father, which obedience we ourselves lacked.

That is why it is necessary to remain “in Christ”.

peace
steve
 
Telstar said:
Under the old law, the unblemished lamb was sacrificed and died for the sins of all. But, the gates of Heaven were still closed to all because it wasn’t a* perfect* sacrifice. God required a perfect, pure and Holy Sacrifice to be made in order to open the gates of Heaven, or no one would ever be able to go there. Jesus was that true Lamb of God, the Pure and Perfect Sacrifice. So, if God says it’s necessary for Jesus to die in order to open the gates of Heaven, who are you to argue with God?

If you’re supposed to be a Christian, then why would you not believe the most important truth about Jesus; that He came down from Heaven to redeem all of mankind? Are you sure you’re Christian? I seriously have my doubts. :ehh:
Click to expand...
Dear Telstar

My faith does not eliminate my right to ask my question. At least, my faith will be reasonable.
 
porthos11 said:
Actually, yes you can. According to the communication of idioms, anything that can be attributed to one nature can be attributed to the whole. It is perfectly legitimate and orthodox to say “God died” or “God experienced death” because the One who experienced the death is the Person, not the nature.

The communication of idioms does not permit us to attribute, however to one nature what was exclusively accomplished in the other. Therefore, it is not correct to say, “Jesus died as God” because the experience of death was exclusively in his human nature.

Which is why Jesus bore our sins willingly. It is wrong to say that Jesus was punished in our place, because he wasn’t. Instead, he bore our sins willingly. No one takes his life from him; it is he who lays down his life for his sheep. His was a sacrifice, not a punishment. That he was punished in our place (“penal substitution”) developed out of Calvinism.
Click to expand...
Dear sir
  1. We doesn’t talk on trinity, but:
A.In the Holy trinity all persons are God, so persons can’t die because each person is self-exist.h

B.persons are distinct from eachother, not from the divine nature. If you claim that persons are separate from the nature, so you mean:
B1: there are several gods
Or:
B2: persons are not God.

Therefor: persons are immortal as nature is.

2.I know: Lord Jesus bored willingly, but my question is why the bad ones must not be punished? For example if some one excruciate me, I do want he be punished for his crime, not the holy son Of God instead of him.
This the problem.
 
porthos11 said:
Which is why the Nestorian heresy was so insidious, because it split Jesus into two Persons. As God, Jesus cannot suffer or die, yes but as Man, he can and did. But Jesus is only one Person: the Second Person of the Trinity. That’s why although Jesus died as a man, it is perfectly legitimate to say “God died” because it is a Person who dies, not a nature. As such, as true Man, he can atone for the sins of man, but as God, only he could offer the infinite atonement for sins committed against an infinitely good and just God.

Because this innocent man willingly bore it; it was not imposed on him. And without God becoming man, we would have been unable to atone for our sins ourselves, no matter how badly we were punished, because no matter what, we are finite creatures, and any sin against an infinitely good and just God has infinite guilt. We could never atone for that. Hence, God, out of nothing but his love for us, took it on himself to offer that atonement, because only God can do so. But he had to do it as a man, for the sins of man.
Click to expand...
Dear sir

We does not talk on incarnation, but it is not Nestorian view. Absolutely God is spirit(john4:24) so you can’t say Lord Jesus’ body is God’s body. It is orthodoxy. Lord Jesus has two natures and these are not same. Lord Jesus died in human nature, not in divine nature. God was alive in those three days and the Holy Trinity did exist when his body died. Death is meaningless for God. His divine nature was alive when his human nature died, as his divine nature was with God in the beginning, but his human nature born 2014 years ago.
 
javid said:
Dear sir

We does not talk on incarnation, but it is not Nestorian view. Absolutely God is spirit(john4:24) so you can’t say Lord Jesus’ body is God’s body. It is orthodoxy. Lord Jesus has two natures and these are not same. Lord Jesus died in human nature, not in divine nature. God was alive in those three days and the Holy Trinity did exist when his body died. Death is meaningless for God. His divine nature was alive when his human nature died, as his divine nature was with God in the beginning, but his human nature born 2014 years ago.
Click to expand...
But what does it mean to die? Didn’t Jesus prove by the resurrection that He never “left”, that life is eternal regardless? Jesus always existed, eternally begotten. He experienced physical death. And this means God did as well, because there is no separation in the hypostatic union, with one essence, one existence. Christ* limited* Himself with the Incarnation; He never ceased to be God.
 
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