You don’t get it. Because it is the Person who died (in his human nature), it is perfectly correct to say “God died”. Natures don’t die; persons do. And yes, do talk on Incarnation, which is the core mystery tied with the Redemption.
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Again, Jesus was not punished for our sins. That’s a Calvinistic heresy. He willingly bore them himself because he loved us. That’s why there is no problem.Dear sir
A.In the Holy trinity all persons are God, so persons can’t die because each person is self-exist.h
- We doesn’t talk on trinity, but:
B.persons are distinct from eachother, not from the divine nature. If you claim that persons are separate from the nature, so you mean:
B1: there are several gods
Or:
B2: persons are not God.
Therefor: persons are immortal as nature is.
2.I know: Lord Jesus bored willingly, but my question is why the bad ones must not be punished? For example if some one excruciate me, I do want he be punished for his crime, not the holy son Of God instead of him.
This the problem.
T
Telstar
Guest
The beauty of what Jesus did for mankind is that according to human ‘reasoning’ it wasn’t logical that the Son of God should become a mortal man, with all of our human weaknesses (except for sin), and offer Himself to the Father by dieing on the cross, as THE perfect holy sacrifice for our sins. He did it because He loves us, and wants us to go to Heaven by following Him. There is no human ‘logic’ in any of that. But, God’s reasoning and logic is not always the same as ours.Dear Telstar
My faith does not eliminate my right to ask my question. At least, my faith will be reasonable.
This is why we have to suspend our own reasoning and logic in order to accept what God clearly tells us is true. We believe and accept it, by having faith in God’s Power. He will never lie to us. So, if He says it’s true, we have to believe it. Otherwise, we would be rejecting God. It’s an insult to God’s Mercy not to believe that He’s fully capable of doing exactly what He said He would.
But, just because He died for all of our sins, that doesn’t mean that we’re free to do whatever we want, from the time we’re Baptized until we die. We are still responsible for everything we do that is against the teachings of Jesus. We are supposed to change our lives, and avoid all sin from that time on. We are redeemed by what Jesus did on the cross, but we are still expected to live the holiest life that we can. When we fall back into sin, we need to confess those sins to a Priest in order to obtain absolution from Jesus, or we can still be lost. We must be humble and promise to try to avoid all those sins in the future, and also do penance for all those sins.
We don’t have a ‘free pass’ to go to Heaven. Jesus opened the door for us, but we must choose to walk through by the ‘narrow gate’ that leads to Heaven. We do that by changing our evil ways, and following what Jesus taught us. Catholics also believe in Purgatory, which is a spiritual ‘place’ where, when we die, every trace of venial sins that remain on our soul, will all be purged away. It’s a painful process, but it is necessary, because nothing defiled can ever enter Heaven.
So, no, we are not completely exempt from any punishment or penance.
J
javid
Guest
Dear Telstar
Hi
It is not about completely or partially. When I do sin, I am to blame for it! A just judge must punish me (and no innocent one else) or forgive me. Others are not guilty, because of my sin.
If my punishment has two parts: one to me And one to Lord Jesus, it can’t be justly, too.
This is my problem.
Hi
It is not about completely or partially. When I do sin, I am to blame for it! A just judge must punish me (and no innocent one else) or forgive me. Others are not guilty, because of my sin.
If my punishment has two parts: one to me And one to Lord Jesus, it can’t be justly, too.
This is my problem.
J
javid
Guest
Dear sirBut what does it mean to die? Didn’t Jesus prove by the resurrection that He never “left”, that life is eternal regardless? Jesus always existed, eternally begotten. He experienced physical death. And this means God did as well, because there is no separation in the hypostatic union, with one essence, one existence. Christ* limited* Himself with the Incarnation; He never ceased to be God.
His his divine nature existed in the beggining as divine person of God, and he is alive in this nature. In his human nature he sleeped, ate and drunk and died on cross.it is what CCC learned to us. Kenosis can help but it has some problems: God’s immortality is essential and so He can’t lose it, so God never dies. I think saint Paul on thar verse just want say Lord Jesus choose to became man, but he doesn’t mean his body is limited God. Limitation is imposible for infinite God.
I think it is better talk on incarnaton in another topic.
J
javid
Guest
No sir! I don’t think so. It is not corect to say “God died” and the persons of trinity are God and never die, as nature never dies. If human nature of second person died, it dies not mean his divine nature died. For three days Jesus’ body was dead but his divine nature was alive.You don’t get it. Because it is the Person who died (in his human nature), it is perfectly correct to say “God died”. Natures don’t die; persons do. And yes, do talk on Incarnation, which is the core mystery tied with the Redemption.
F
fhansen
Guest
His human nature was alive those three days, too.No sir! I don’t think so. It is not corect to say “God died” and the persons of trinity are God and never die, as nature never dies. If human nature of second person died, it dies not mean his divine nature died. For three days Jesus’ body was dead but his divine nature was alive.
J
javid
Guest
Dear sirAgain, Jesus was not punished for our sins. That’s a Calvinistic heresy. He willingly bore them himself because he loved us. That’s why there is no problem.
I asked it infirt post! Others said he died for both original and personal sins of humankind. I am not Calvinist!!
Now if you agree with this, Question is not on sacrifice of Lord Jesus. Yes he can love us and he can do every thing for us. My Question is on punishment if the sinners. Why God diss not punish or forgive the sinner and just a innocent one must die for him?
As I said before if some one bother you, and the judge says I will be punished instead of him or he says my son will be punished instead of him; Do you think it is justly? If yes, say me how! He didn’t punish the guilty one and just bothered another one who didn’t bother you!
J
javid
Guest
HiHis human nature was alive those three days, too.
Give a evidence for your claim please.
When gospels say he died, who died? His divine nature? A wrong one who sacrifice himself for saving Jesus, as mulims say? Or Jesus’ human nature? Body was dead, God is spirit, so it must be the human nature, sir.
F
fhansen
Guest
[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]
Are we dead when our bodies die? Where are we then? Non-existent? Not according to our faith. Do our natures cease to exist when our souls and bodies separate?Hi
Give a evidence for your claim please.
When gospels say he died, who died? His divine nature? A wrong one who sacrifice himself for saving Jesus, as mulims say? Or Jesus’ human nature? Body was dead, God is spirit, so it must be the human nature, sir.
J
javid
Guest
Dear fhansen[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]
Are we dead when our bodies die? Where are we then? Non-existent? Not according to our faith. Do our natures cease to exist when our souls and bodies separate?
We both look for reality. Death has it’s meaning! You can’t change it:
1.Death happens when our souls and bodies saparate! And this can’t happen to God. By your defenition, we are immortal as God is!
2.Our souls do not die because God wants so. If you think souls essentially can’t die, so you belive in billion Gods! Because each soul is self-exist! But in fact, souls need God to stay alive, and so Lord Jesus’ soul was creature, if you ignore it, you’ll ignore that Lord Jesus was fully man as He is fully God. If he is fully man his soul must be like our souls, as his body is so.
3.The argument is clear:
A.Lord Jesus has two natures: God and Man.
B.Lord Jesus died on cross.
C.God never dies.
So:Lord Jesus died in human nature died, not in his divine nature.
F
fhansen
Guest
The threat of death is imminent for us now because we just can’t know by ourselves what lies beyond the grave. But Jesus proved, by the ressurection, that life is eternal. The Catholic faith teaches that all human souls are created to exist forever, regardless of where that may be.Dear fhansen
We both look for reality. Death has it’s meaning! You can’t change it:
1.Death happens when our souls and bodies saparate! And this can’t happen to God. By your defenition, we are immortal as God is!
2.Our souls do not die because God wants so. If you think souls essentially can’t die, so you belive in billion Gods! Because each soul is self-exist! But in fact, souls need God to stay alive, and so Lord Jesus’ soul was creature, if you ignore it, you’ll ignore that Lord Jesus was fully man as He is fully God. If he is fully man his soul must be like our souls, as his body is so.
3.The argument is clear:
A.Lord Jesus has two natures: God and Man.
B.Lord Jesus died on cross.
C.God never dies.
So:Lord Jesus died in human nature died, not in his divine nature.
F
fred_conty
Guest
I ask your pardon for a moment while I limply try to explain the catholic viewpoint.Dear fhansen
We both look for reality. Death has it’s meaning! You can’t change it:
1.Death happens when our souls and bodies saparate! And this can’t happen to God. By your defenition, we are immortal as God is!
2.Our souls do not die because God wants so. If you think souls essentially can’t die, so you belive in billion Gods! Because each soul is self-exist! But in fact, souls need God to stay alive, and so Lord Jesus’ soul was creature, if you ignore it, you’ll ignore that Lord Jesus was fully man as He is fully God. If he is fully man his soul must be like our souls, as his body is so.
3.The argument is clear:
A.Lord Jesus has two natures: God and Man.
B.Lord Jesus died on cross.
C.God never dies.
So:Lord Jesus died in human nature died, not in his divine nature.
When Mary said “yes” to the angel Gabriel, she conceived Jesus in her womb. Who she conceived was the 2nd person(Logos) of the Trinity, the Son of the Father in heaven thru the Holy Spirit. The 2nd person became man…he assumed a human nature…a human body, and a human soul, just like yours and mine.
His human soul had an human intellect and a human will. This was joined to the divine person. He did not take on another human person, but had only one person…the divine person. How do we know this? The church has over many centuries and in consideration of many errors of others, has taught us this in a clear way…that he only had one person…the divine.
So there is really only one person(Logos)…the 2nd person of God(Jn.1), who became man, whereby he has a fully human body and a human soul. When Jesus died, his human soul separated from his human body, which is what death is, just as any of us die. For death is the separation of the soul from the body because the body is no longer in any condition to maintain a soul. So Jesus truely died because he WAS man. However, the person being the 2nd person of God(Logos), could die as man, but not die as God from all eternity.
Even after death, the body and soul remained united to the person of God(Logos), and the godhead never left the deceased body or separated soul.
However the Logos(person) did die as a MAN, his human nature ceased to exist. Tho again, the Logos never left the body or the soul even in death. Therefore on easter morn, the Logos rose himself from the dead which lifts Christ above all other religious leaders.
Just as the Logos was born of Mary as man, the Logos died on the cross as man.
It is difficult to phathom because it is a mystery, but we can appreciate what this means because of it.
May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
J
javid
Guest
Dear fhansenThe threat of death is imminent for us now because we just can’t know by ourselves what lies beyond the grave. But Jesus proved, by the ressurection, that life is eternal. The Catholic faith teaches that all human souls are created to exist forever, regardless of where that may be.
Your far from the topic.
As uou said all human souls are created, so Jesus’ soul is created because he is fully a man. So he just died as a man, not as a God. God does not have two parts such as body and spirit to you can say he died because of separation between them!
J
javid
Guest
Dear FredI ask your pardon for a moment while I limply try to explain the catholic viewpoint.
When Mary said “yes” to the angel Gabriel, she conceived Jesus in her womb. Who she conceived was the 2nd person(Logos) of the Trinity, the Son of the Father in heaven thru the Holy Spirit. The 2nd person became man…he assumed a human nature…a human body, and a human soul, just like yours and mine.
His human soul had an human intellect and a human will. This was joined to the divine person. He did not take on another human person, but had only one person…the divine person. How do we know this? The church has over many centuries and in consideration of many errors of others, has taught us this in a clear way…that he only had one person…the divine.
So there is really only one person(Logos)…the 2nd person of God(Jn.1), who became man, whereby he has a fully human body and a human soul. When Jesus died, his human soul separated from his human body, which is what death is, just as any of us die. For death is the separation of the soul from the body because the body is no longer in any condition to maintain a soul. So Jesus truely died because he WAS man. However, the person being the 2nd person of God(Logos), could die as man, but not die as God from all eternity.
Even after death, the body and soul remained united to the person of God(Logos), and the godhead never left the deceased body or separated soul.
However the Logos(person) did die as a MAN, his human nature ceased to exist. Tho again, the Logos never left the body or the soul even in death. Therefore on easter morn, the Logos rose himself from the dead which lifts Christ above all other religious leaders.
Just as the Logos was born of Mary as man, the Logos died on the cross as man.
It is difficult to phathom because it is a mystery, but we can appreciate what this means because of it.
May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
I agree with you. I say Jesus died as a man, not as God, so we can’t say God sacrified.
F
fhansen
Guest
Jesus conquered death-by proving that physical death does not result in cessation of existence! IOW, the death of the body He “wore” was no death at all-of the being possessing that body. So God could experience the death of the incarnated body He assumed without dying in terms of existence, of course. According to the doctrine of the hypostatic union, there is no separation in Jesus of personhood between human and divine, so, yes, God did have both a body and spirit.Dear fhansen
Your far from the topic.
As uou said all human souls are created, so Jesus’ soul is created because he is fully a man. So he just died as a man, not as a God. God does not have two parts such as body and spirit to you can say he died because of separation between them!
T
Telstar
Guest
Jesus miraculously ‘took on’ human flesh, and grew in the womb of Mary just like we all grow in our own mother’s womb, but Jesus was not ‘created’ in any way. He was formed through the power of the Holy Spirit and ***became ***man. He also has a human soul, infused by God, as we also do. But, His humanity can never be separated from His Divinity, just like the Holy Trinity cannot be divided or separated in any way. God always remains One.Dear fhansen
Your far from the topic.
As uou said all human souls are created, so Jesus’ soul is created because he is fully a man. So he just died as a man, not as a God. God does not have two parts such as body and spirit to you can say he died because of separation between them!
When Jesus died, His human soul left His human body, and He truly did die like we all do. But, He still remained fully God, because of the inseparable union between His human and Divine natures. When Jesus took on human flesh, God truly became a man like us in a very profound way. His human flesh is now a permanent part of God. So, while God’s physical Body (Jesus) truly died on the cross, God still remained very much alive, because God can never die, spiritually.
This is all part of the Mystery of Jesus, the True Son of God. We all certainly struggle to understand it, intellectually. But, it is a fact that all Christians must accept as being true, or we cannot really call ourselves Christian. God truly came down from Heaven to become a man, because that’s how much He really loves us. He loves us enough to die for us.
D
davidv
Guest
Jesus is a divine person. When He died, His soul left His body.Dear Fred
I agree with you. I say Jesus died as a man, not as God, so we can’t say God sacrified.
Jesus is God
Therefore God died. QED
To deny this is support one of the heresies related to the person-hood of Jesus.
M
mdcpensive1
Guest
Dear javid
- Jesus the Christ is the second person of the trinity is one person
- This one person has two natures.
- There is a soul for each nature.
- Only the human nature died
- Only something supernatural can appease a supernatural transgression
- Natural offerings cannot appease a supernatural transgression.
- Jesus being a divine person with two natures offered Himself to the Father and bore iniquities even though innocent to mitigate our sins.
- The offering was accepted by the Father because Jesus’ human body rose from the dead as proof of the Father’s acceptance.
J
javid
Guest
Dear mdcpensive1Dear javid
- Jesus the Christ is the second person of the trinity is one person
- This one person has two natures.
- There is a soul for each nature.
- Only the human nature died
- Only something supernatural can appease a supernatural transgression
- Natural offerings cannot appease a supernatural transgression.
- Jesus being a divine person with two natures offered Himself to the Father and bore iniquities even though innocent to mitigate our sins.
- The offering was accepted by the Father because Jesus’ human body rose from the dead as proof of the Father’s acceptance.
Yes, I said it from the begginig. But Original Question is why a just judge must accept that a innocent one be punished instead of a sinner.
Best regards
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