Original sin or Personal sin

[fhansen]

Dear fhansen

1.God does not have two parts to saparation. According to your view:

God= divine soul + divine body

No, I never said that. I said Jesus and God cannot be separated.

2.If God have a body, so he made up from billion cells. So a self-exist has no body.

Yes, that’s what I said. But He can certainly assume a body nonetheless. You don’t believe Jesus is God?

 

[javid]

No, I never said that. I said Jesus and God cannot be separated.

Yes, that’s what I said. But He can certainly assume a body nonetheless. You don’t believe Jesus is God?

Dear fhansen

Who said Jesus and God are separated? Who said God can’t assume a body?

I think you didn’t read my question carefully.

 

[fhansen]

Dear fhansen

Who said Jesus and God are separated? Who said God can’t assume a body?

I think you didn’t read my question carefully.

Maybe you haven’t read mine carefully then. If Jesus and God cannot be separated, then God assumed a body and experienced physical suffering and death with it.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Dear sir

Problem is on just, not on love. I said it before.

I am sorry we are not under standing each other. Justice or the price has been paid. Christ has bought us back. He took the sinners place.

 

[porthos11]

Dear sir

Problem is on just, not on love. I said it before.

There is only one result of God’s justice without Christ’s sacrifice: you go to hell.

It’s not a problem of justice because as we’ve been REPEATEDLY stating Jesus was NOT punished for our sins. What keeps you from understanding that? He VOLUNTARILY bore our sins so that the price for sin can be paid.

Therefore there is no injustice because Jesus was NOT punished for our sins. That’s why it’s an act of love. That is what satisfies God’s justice because the atonement offered by the God-Man is infinite in merit.

 

[mdcpensive1]

There is only one result of God’s justice without Christ’s sacrifice: you go to hell.

It’s not a problem of justice because as we’ve been REPEATEDLY stating Jesus was NOT punished for our sins. What keeps you from understanding that? He VOLUNTARILY bore our sins so that the price for sin can be paid.

Therefore there is no injustice because Jesus was NOT punished for our sins. That’s why it’s an act of love. That is what satisfies God’s justice because the atonement offered by the God-Man is infinite in merit.

Well said. Much better than I stated.

 

[Telstar]

Dear sir

Problem is on just, not on love. I said it before.

Are you sure you believe in Jesus Christ, at all? Jesus taught us that we should all love one another, and the greatest sign that proves we really do love one another, is by laying down our own life for our friends. That’s exactly what He did for us on the cross. The main reason Jesus came down from Heaven was to show God’s great love for us, and satisfy God’s Justice, by giving up His own life for us. “John 10: [15] As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. [16] And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. [17] Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. [18] No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”

You certainly claim to be a ‘Christian’, but you don’t really sound like someone that actually believes that Jesus, being God, could have died on the cross for us. If you really do believe in Him, do you also believe that Jesus is God? Do you also believe that He always was God, and always will be God? If you do not believe any of those things, then why would you claim to be a ‘Christian’? That’s the basic core of what all Christians must believe in order to call themselves ‘Christian’.

I’m also getting the impression that you are not really a Christian from the way you argue that Jesus could not have done what He, and the Gospels, say He did. In this thread and in the other one that you started about the Holy Trinity, you continue to argue that what Jesus says, as well as what Christians believe about God, is not even possible according to your own personal views. So I, for one, am very confused about your actual beliefs.

How do you think we are saved from sin, if not through Jesus (God) dieing on the cross for us? Maybe if you could explain it to us, then that would help us all to better understand the problem we seem to be having in communication.

 

[javid]

Maybe you haven’t read mine carefully then. If Jesus and God cannot be separated, then God assumed a body and experienced physical suffering and death with it.

Yes, but as you said, the body is not God, God just assumed it. So, if God just assumed the body, then he didn’t died and did not suffered. The body suffered and died.

It is what you said!

 

[javid]

I am sorry we are not under standing each other. Justice or the price has been paid. Christ has bought us back. He took the sinners place.

Dear md

How justice or the price has been paid, when the sinner didn’t punished and the innocent accepted to be punished instead of him?

If you take anyone’s blame, then no court accept to punish you, instead of guilty one.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, but as you said, the body is not God, God just assumed it. So, if God just assumed the body, then he didn’t died and did not suffered. The body suffered and died.

It is what you said!

This was addressed back in posts 20, 27, and 30. Guess what?-we don 't die either just because our bodies die. Jesus proved that there’s something beyond the physical realm, beyond this life. And yet, due to our bodies, we will suffer and we will die physically. God *knew *suffering and death-as we know it. He meant for us to witness Him in His passion-so we’ll know that He identifies with us, suffers with us, loves us beyond measure.

 

[javid]

There is only one result of God’s justice without Christ’s sacrifice: you go to hell.

It’s not a problem of justice because as we’ve been REPEATEDLY stating Jesus was NOT punished for our sins. What keeps you from understanding that? He VOLUNTARILY bore our sins so that the price for sin can be paid.

Therefore there is no injustice because Jesus was NOT punished for our sins. That’s why it’s an act of love. That is what satisfies God’s justice because the atonement offered by the God-Man is infinite in merit.

Dear Porthos11

1.I don’t talk on result of God’s justice without Christ’s sacrifice. I’m talking on punishing the innocent one instead of a guilty one.

2.I know God is love, but does his love stop his justice? If yes we can’t call him a just judge

3.If God didn’t give us the ability to be saved, so how Result of his justice is going to hell?(Let us do not talk on this and talk about main question)

 

[javid]

Dear tal star

Yes I belive! Please criticze the question intead of me!

 

[javid]

This was addressed back in posts 20, 27, and 30. Guess what?-we don 't die either just because our bodies die. Jesus proved that there’s something beyond the physical realm, beyond this life. And yet, due to our bodies, we will suffer and we will die physically. God *knew *suffering and death-as we know it. He meant for us to witness Him in His passion-so we’ll know that He identifies with us, suffers with us, loves us beyond measure.

Dear fhansen

I aswered you there!

1.God has not two parts to separation between them be God’s death.

2.God has no body. As you said God assumed the body, but according to ghd bible God is spirit so has no body.

3.My question is notlove, It us on just.

 

[javid]

3.My question is notlove, It us on just.

I meant: My question is not on love, it is on just.

 

[fhansen]

---

Dear fhansen

I aswered you there!

1.God has not two parts to separation between them be God’s death.

2.God has no body. As you said God assumed the body, but according to ghd bible God is spirit so has no body.

3.My question is notlove, It us on just.

Well, God’s mercy trumps His justice. In any case, according to Scripture, Christ, the innocent lamb, suffered and died for us while we were yet sinners. That is an act of love, not at all determined by strict justice. And the Christian faith teaches that ***God became man. ***Jesus is fully God-and so He was fully God when He died on the cross just as He’s fully God now. Why should it be impossible for God to assume a human body and experience suffering and death? Is this beyond His power? Does this make Him less of a God?

 

[porthos11]

Dear Porthos11

1.I don’t talk on result of God’s justice without Christ’s sacrifice. I’m talking on punishing the innocent one instead of a guilty one.

And I say to you again: God did not punish Jesus.

2.I know God is love, but does his love stop his justice? If yes we can’t call him a just judge

Heresy. God is both love and justice. But because Jesus paid the price for our sins, his sacrifice WIPES us clean of our sins, making US innocent. Because God is just, he does NOT punish the innocent. God is love: Jesus died for us to bear our sins. God is just: those of us who have been wiped clean of sin are not punished.

Your question shows a very Protestant understanding of salvation, indicated by your use of courtroom terms. Your question even shows that you have a mindset of imputed righteousness (Protestantism, i.e. God simply ignores the guilt) as opposed to the correct understanding of infused justification (Catholicism, which understands justification as God actually wiping us clean).

3.If God didn’t give us the ability to be saved, so how Result of his justice is going to hell?(Let us do not talk on this and talk about main question)

Because any sin is an infinite offense against an infinitely good and great God. Even the smallest sin merits hell.

 

[Telstar]

Dear tal star

Yes I belive! Please criticze the question intead of me!

If you say so, then I’ll have to take your word for it. Pardon me for having to ask that question, but I’m still not really sure what you do believe. You’ve given us a few hints about it, but they don’t really seem to make a lot of sense, without them being stated, clearly. I hate having to try and guess why there’s such a huge disconnect between us. The language barrier is likely part of it, but it’s much more than just that. We’re certainly not seeing things from the same perspective. Could you please answer my question, below? Or, tell us what church you belong to, so we can figure it out from there? Either way, it might help us better understand where you’re coming from if you could do either of those things.

How do you think we are saved from sin, if not through Jesus (God) dieing on the cross for us? Maybe if you could explain it to us, then that would help us all to better understand the problem we seem to be having in communication.

 

[javid]

---

Well, God’s mercy trumps His justice. In any case, according to Scripture, Christ, the innocent lamb, suffered and died for us while we were yet sinners. That is an act of love, not at all determined by strict justice. And the Christian faith teaches that ***God became man. ***Jesus is fully God-and so He was fully God when He died on the cross just as He’s fully God now. Why should it be impossible for God to assume a human body and experience suffering and death? Is this beyond His power? Does this make Him less of a God?

Dear fhansen

If his mercy trumps his justice, then his juatice is not perfect and is not his essential attribute.

So we can’t call him just God.

Best regards

 

[javid]

And I say to you again: God did not punish Jesus.

Heresy. God is both love and justice. But because Jesus paid the price for our sins, his sacrifice WIPES us clean of our sins, making US innocent. Because God is just, he does NOT punish the innocent. God is love: Jesus died for us to bear our sins. God is just: those of us who have been wiped clean of sin are not punished.

Your question shows a very Protestant understanding of salvation, indicated by your use of courtroom terms. Your question even shows that you have a mindset of imputed righteousness (Protestantism, i.e. God simply ignores the guilt) as opposed to the correct understanding of infused justification (Catholicism, which understands justification as God actually wiping us clean).

Because any sin is an infinite offense against an infinitely good and great God. Even the smallest sin merits hell.

Dear porthos11

Your reply is true, only if you say Jesus died for our original sin. But at the beggining I asked did Jesus died for our personal sin or original sin? Answered: both.

So Jesus suffered And died because I do sin! And this means: He has been punished instead of me.

 

[javid]

Dear Talstar

I do not want decide instead of God, but he could forgive us with no sacrifice or punishment or give a way to penitence. But this is not my question. My question isid God do justly?