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thinkandmull
Guest
Its not as if God was saying “well SOMEONE has to suffer for this”. Calvary was an act of love. LOVE was the payment, not pain
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Telstar
Guest
Since God is Perfect, and is the Judge Who Judges everything with Perfect Justice, then I would have to answer that He has Judged Justly. Yes, He could have just forgiven us without any sacrifice required from us, but that would not have satisfied His Justice. Since we could never have sacrificed enough to justify ourselves to God, because of our sinful state, the only possible solution was that Jesus had to offer Himself as the Perfect Sacrifice to His Father, to satisfy God’s Justice, for us. He did it because He loves us, and wants us to be with Him in Heaven, forever.
So, Jesus came down from Heaven, to show us how to follow Him, back to Heaven. He also came to open the gates of Heaven that were forever closed to all of us, because of the sin of Adam and Eve. That was also part of the reason for His Sacrifice. Only He could open the Gates of Heaven, so we could be friends with God, again. But, He didn’t just come to make us friends of God, but offered us to even become His adopted sons and daughters. We are washed clean in His Blood through our Baptism, and become fully adopted sons and daughters of God. This opens the Gates of Heaven to us.
But, that doesn’t mean that we are not still held responsible for the sins that we continue to commit, after that point. We still have to live according to what Jesus taught us, and try hard to avoid all future sin. Whenever we fall into sin, again (as we all do), we must be truly penitent, confess our sins, and make restitution for those sins, by making sacrifices and doing penance. This is what we must continue to do, throughout our whole life on earth. Baptism only washes away the sins that are on our souls at that single point in time. It does not cover any sins that we commit after that point. We will still owe a personal debt to God for all of those sins, and must pay restitution for them, either in this life, or in the next.
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javid
Guest
Dear Thinkandmull
But some one suffered and died on cross. If God want to forgive us, why he didn’t do this without sacrifice?
J
javid
Guest
Dear Talstar
What you said makes a new question: Did god give humanity the ability to bd saved?
We do not talk about this now. My question is: Is this solution fair?
If it was not fair, then being the only solution does not make it fair.
What you said makes a new question: Did god give humanity the ability to bd saved?
We do not talk about this now. My question is: Is this solution fair?
If it was not fair, then being the only solution does not make it fair.
T
Telstar
Guest
Yes, that was the whole point in Jesus coming down from Heaven. But, to be saved we have to freely accept the gift that God offers to us. We accept His gift by being Baptized. Then, through following everything that Jesus taught us, we continue to grow in holiness. We must love God, and each other, with all our heart. We must always do good things, and not do evil. We are still bound by the 10 Commandments, including the Commandment that Jesus gave us, to love one another, like He loves us. We also need to truly live that way, by helping each other, through works of charity. We should treat everyone like they’re our own family, even if they hate us. We should always pray for everyone, especially those that hate us, and ask God to touch their hearts to convert them.
Absolutely. God is always fair. He is always willing to go to the extreme to save us, if that’s what it takes. Because, He created us for Himself, and He will always love us, even when we do things that hurt Him.
It was fair in God’s eyes, or else He wouldn’t have done it that way. We would certainly never be able to save ourselves, otherwise. We still have to do our own part, but at least now, we have a chance.
And again I will say this: No he was not!
He paid the price for our sin, yes. We can even say he paid the penalty for our sin yes. But he was not punished for our sins. He willingly paid the price instead.
For one to be punished, there has to be a punisher. But Jesus explicitly said NO ONE takes his life from him, but he lays it down willingly. Therefore there was no punisher, and so Jesus was not punished. His was an act of pure love, so that we could be wiped clean of BOTH original and personal sin.
Because we are washed in the blood of Jesus, we are therefore rendered (not just “considered”) innocent and therefore when God judges us, we are actually innocent and undeserving of hell.
Penal substitution (this is what you are claiming) is a heresy invented by Calvinists.
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thinkandmull
Guest
Doesn’t St. Paul say that in Adam we all sinned?? Somehow mystically we commited the sin too
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thinkandmull
Guest
To say “satisfy his justice” seems as if God is saying “well SOMEONE must feel pain over this”. Where did you get that from? It was LOVE that saved us, not measured pain
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thenobes
Guest
That’s right. How do you get justice from one who does you wrong? By inflicting pain on Him? No!
What’s correct to do is the restitution of that which was lost in the infliction of the wrong.
What has God lost? The obedience that he was due! What did Christ make available to us by His perfect life and acceptance of evil at the hands of others? The obedience that was due from us to the Father, an obedience unto death!
Furthermore one must remove the grief and suffering that was caused by the wrong.
The grief and suffering was assuaged, in my opinion, by the seating of the son at the right hand of the Father, continually offering His Sacrifice on our behalf as we repent of sins.
But none of this applies too us unless we are In Christ
peace
steve
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mdcpensive1
Guest
yes my friend, you are correct in that the innocent one paid the price. That is what scripture says. Christ paid the price for all our sins in the past and in the future to come. That was the extreme act of Love. He took our blame and merited the graces necessary for our salvation, an extreme act of charity on His part.
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javid
Guest
Dear Talstar
How it is fair when the sinner didn’t be punished and the innocent suffered and died? You say it is fair just because god loves us! But I don’t think so, if someone tortured you and the judge did not punish him, just because he loves him, do you call him a just judge?
How it is fair when the sinner didn’t be punished and the innocent suffered and died? You say it is fair just because god loves us! But I don’t think so, if someone tortured you and the judge did not punish him, just because he loves him, do you call him a just judge?
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javid
Guest
Dear Porthos11
What is difference between paying price and being punished? It does not solve problem. Why a just judge lets a inocent one pay price for a sins of another sinner? Justice makes him to get it from th sunner!!
In addition, I AM Not protestant, please do not cal me calvinist! I am just looking for a reasonable faith. But the questions do not change my faith.
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javid
Guest
Dear md
Yes, the faith says so, but I want now how justice of God let this happen and how can it be fair, for reasonable faith.
I’m not calling you anything. In fact, I don’t even know what you are. I’m saying penal substitution is a Calvinist heresy. Where am I calling YOU Calvinist???
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Telstar
Guest
Punishment infers that there was guilt involved, but Jesus was never guilty of anything evil. The Judge (Pilate) passed judgement on Him and put Him to death, knowing full well that He was not guilty of any crime against Rome. Pilate only did it because the Jews insisted that Jesus was guilty of a crime against them, but He was still innocent. The only way they could force Pilate’s hand was to choose the release of Barabbas, instead of Jesus, when Pilate gave them the choice (that’s why he symbolically washed his hands of any guilt). This is clearly symbolic of the ‘scapegoat’ that was traditionally released, when the sacrificial lamb was offered to God for the sins of the Jews, on the Day of Atonement. The sacrificial lamb was not guilty of any sin, either, but it was offered as a sacrifice to God, for the sins of others, just as Jesus offered Himself to the Father, for the sins of the world.
Everything that Jesus did, when He lived on this earth, was a fulfillment of the entire Old Testament, both, of the prophecies concerning the Messiah, and of the Jewish Law and Covenant, that ended when He established His New Covenant with mankind. So, Jesus’ death on the cross is the fulfillment of all of the works of the Messiah, as the Savior of the Jews and of all mankind. He sacrificed Himself, through the hands of others, so we could be saved from the guilt of sin. It’s still our own choice to make, whether we will accept His gift to us, or not.
You really don’t give any hint of what your religion really is. You say you’re “Christian” in your profile, so you’re probably not Catholic. Now, you say you’re not Protestant, either. That doesn’t leave a lot of other choices.
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Vico
Guest
Both. Baltimore Catechism No. 3:Q. 328. Did Jesus Christ die to redeem all men of every age and race without exception?
A. Jesus Christ died to redeem all men of every age and race without exception; and every person born into the world should share in His merits, without which no one can be saved.
Q. 329. How are the merits of Jesus Christ applied to our souls?
A. The merits of Jesus Christ are applied to our souls through the Sacraments, and especially through Baptism and Penance, which restore us to the friendship of God.
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javid
Guest
Dear Talstar
If we think real christians are catholics, I think I can call myself a christian. But I can change it to Catholic, if it helps.
I know Lord Jesus is innocent, and it is my problem. Why a just judge accepts to a innocent one pay price of sins instead of us, I know he loved us, But My question is on justice.
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Telstar
Guest
Christians are Christians. Catholics were the first Christians, but not all Christians are Catholic. Your response is troubling to me. It seems that you don’t have any real church ties, and you’re willing to change your designation to whatever you think is more acceptable. Is that true? If you are Catholic, then say so. If not, then I suppose it really doesn’t matter which Christian church you claim to belong to. You’re certainly not making it easy for us to figure out what you really believe.
Did God accept the sacrifice of an innocent lamb for the sins of the Jews in the Old Testament, to appease His Justice? Wasn’t that acceptable to God and the Jews, both? Why wouldn’t the Sacrifice that Jesus offered to His own Father be even more acceptable to satisfy His Justice? What mere animal, or mortal man, could ever appease God the Father better than His Own Son?
You seem to be much more focused on justice, over and above everything else. Whenever we say that Jesus willingly offered Himself out of love for us, you argue that you aren’t interested in any answer that involves His love. You’re only looking for an answer that satisfies your own definition of justice. Christians believe that the main reason Jesus came to earth, was because of God’s love for mankind. Jesus taught us all to love God, above all, and to love each other as He loved us. That’s why love is the most important virtue to all Christians. God’s Love and Mercy tempers God’s Justice. If they didn’t, then we wouldn’t have much of chance to ever appease Him.
I don’t think you’ll ever find an answer from any Christian that conforms to your insistence on justice over love, especially the way you seem to define justice. According to what you’ve been saying, what most Christians believe about the Crucifixion and death of Jesus as it relates to our salvation, can never fit into your beliefs. Mainly, because it’s based on the Love of God for mankind, and not focused on satisfying His Justice. On the other hand, there is another religion that is much more focused on justice over any other virtue, but it’s definitely not Christian.
M
mdcpensive1
Guest
It is because God is merciful Just think of what God does in baptism. If we live a life of sin and get baptized, the sins and temporal punishment are wiped away. That is total mercy and love on the part of God. That may not be justice according to human terms but God does not have to operate on human terms. He gives miracles when He wants and mercy when He wants.
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Vico
Guest
Salvation is a gift of God to us and he can do what he wills. For example, just as the master of the house in the parable of the workers when he pays those that worked less hours the same as those that worked more hours. “Or is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?”
Some hearing refuse the call to the faith, some hearing will follow and then fall away, and a smaller portion hear, follow and remain justified.
Matthew 20:1-161 The *kingdom of heaven is like to a master of a family, who went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And having agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And going about the third hour, he saw others standing idle in the market-place,
4 And he said to them, Go you also into my vineyard, and I will give you what shall be just.
5 And they went their way. And again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did in like manner.
6 But about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing, and he saith to them: Why stand you here all the day idle?
7 They say to him: Because no man hath hired us. He saith to them: Go you also into my vineyard.
8 And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first.
9 When therefore they came, who had come about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first also came, they thought that they should have receive more: and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And receiving it, they murmured against the master of the house,
12 Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats.
13 But he answering one of them, said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny?
14 Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee.
15 Or is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?
16 *So shall the last be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.
Haydock Commentary Ver. 16.
Few chosen: only such as have not despised their caller, but followed and believed him; for men believed not, but of their own free will. (St. Augustine, lib. i, ad Simplic. q. ii.) (Bristow)
— Hence the rejection of the Jews and of negligent Christians, and the conversion of strangers, who come and take their place, by a conversion both of faith and morals. On the part of God all are called. (Matthew xi. 28.) Come to me all, &c. In effect, many after their call, have attained to faith and justification; but few in comparison are elected to eternal glory, because the far greater part do not obey the call, but refuse to come, whilst many of those who come fall away again; and thus very few, in comparison with those that perish, will at the last day be selected for eternal glory. (Tirinus)
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