Original sin or Personal sin

[fhansen]

Dear fhansen

You said this ever and ever, And I mus say you again:

1.My problem is not on Love, but on Justice

2.ِDo you mean God’s love can stop his Justice?

Well, mercy certainly triumphs over judgment according to James 2, and Gods judgments are always just. And it must be this way: the Christian faith, Jesus Christ’s death on the cross, is all about mercy, it’s all about forgiveness, so that we can have the freedom to allow ourselves to be humbled-and changed. After that we must remain changed, we must continue to walk in righteousness or justice, which God gave us, or we lose it along with our place in His kingdom.

 

[Telstar]

Dear fhansen

You said this ever and ever, And I mus say you again:

1.My problem is not on Love, but on Justice

2.ِDo you mean God’s love can stop his Justice?

God’s immense Love and Mercy must overrule His Justice, otherwise none of us could ever be worthy of Heaven. Our sins against God demand justice because God requires justice to be maintained in all things. Every single one of our sins deserves to be severely punished, and they are numerous. However, if God did not love us more than He hated our sins, then we wouldn’t stand a chance to ever regain any kind of good relationship with Him. Our sins leave a giant gap between us and God that we could never fill on our own. The sacrifice that Jesus made for us bridged that giant gap between us and God. He was the only one that could do that. Jesus knew that we would all be lost forever, otherwise. His great Mercy caused Him to accept His own death on the cross, to give us a chance to be reconciled with His Father.

ِDear Talstar

Thank you

But do you mean that almighty God couldn’t find another way? (I think it is better to say it was the best way)

It is certainly possible that God could have found another way for us to be reconciled with Him. But, because He also wanted to show us just how much He really loves us, He sent His Only Son to teach us how we should all love God, and each other, by laying down His own human life for all of us. Nothing else would have had as great an impact on mankind.

When we consider that God actually took on human flesh to become a human being like the rest of us, then allowed Himself to be brutally put to death, even though He was completely innocent of any kind of sin, all because He loved us, is something that could never easily be forgotten. As we all know, for 2000 years the memory of that Perfect Act of Love done by Jesus, is still very well remembered to this day. That’s why it had to be done the way it was, so that everyone would always remember, and better understand, just how much we are all deeply loved by God.

ِOn the other hand, Do I must believe that when injustice is the only way, we must consider it as justice?

Best Regards

If I am understanding your question correctly, then certainly not. God demands that we always deal with all things according to true justice, but His example teaches us that we must also temper our sense of justice toward others with love and mercy, as He always does with us. If we learn anything at all from what Jesus did for us on the cross, it should be that love and mercy should always inspire us to forgive those that treat us unjustly, the same way He did when He said, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”.

When Jesus taught us how to pray to the Father, He clearly said we should say, “forgive us OUR trespasses AS WE forgive those who trespass AGAINST us.”. By saying this, we are asking Him to treat us in the same way that we treat others. So, if we are willing to show them mercy, He will also show us mercy. But, if we refuse to show mercy to others, then neither will He show mercy to us. God’s forgiveness of our ‘trespasses’ (sins) depends upon how willing we are to forgive others who might sin against us, by treating us very poorly.

Justice should always to be tempered by our showing mercy toward others, and we should all be willing to suffer any injustice against us with the same humility and forgiveness in our hearts as Jesus had in His. These are just a few of the important lessons that Jesus came down from Heaven to teach us. There really was no better way for God to teach us all these things than by doing them, Himself, by His perfect example.

In the end, all forms of injustice that might occur on earth, that are seemingly not balanced out in this life, will be judged by God and dealt with according to His own Justice. He is the only one that has the power to make all things right. He will decide who will be rewarded for their actions and who will be required to make restitution for theirs, in the next world. He will always have the final word regarding all Justice, and His Judgements are always true and fair. We can all rest assured that God will balance out all injustices perpetrated against us, through His Judgements. In the end, we just need to trust Him to actually do that for us.

 

[javid]

Well, mercy certainly triumphs over judgment according to James 2, and Gods judgments are always just. And it must be this way: the Christian faith, Jesus Christ’s death on the cross, is all about mercy, it’s all about forgiveness, so that we can have the freedom to allow ourselves to be humbled-and changed. After that we must remain changed, we must continue to walk in righteousness or justice, which God gave us, or we lose it along with our place in His kingdom.

So do you mean that God may do some thing that is not justly(!) because of his mercy?! And is not it a Weakness for God’s judgment, while His mercy trriumphs it?

 

[javid]

If I am understanding your question correctly, then certainly not. God demands that we always deal with all things according to true justice, but His example teaches us that we must also temper our sense of justice toward others with love and mercy, as He always does with us. If we learn anything at all from what Jesus did for us on the cross, it should be that love and mercy should always inspire us to forgive those that treat us unjustly, the same way He did when He said, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”.

When Jesus taught us how to pray to the Father, He clearly said we should say, “forgive us OUR trespasses AS WE forgive those who trespass AGAINST us.”. By saying this, we are asking Him to treat us in the same way that we treat others. So, if we are willing to show them mercy, He will also show us mercy. But, if we refuse to show mercy to others, then neither will He show mercy to us. God’s forgiveness of our ‘trespasses’ (sins) depends upon how willing we are to forgive others who might sin against us, by treating us very poorly.

Justice should always to be tempered by our showing mercy toward others, and we should all be willing to suffer any injustice against us with the same humility and forgiveness in our hearts as Jesus had in His. These are just a few of the important lessons that Jesus came down from Heaven to teach us. There really was no better way for God to teach us all these things than by doing them, Himself, by His perfect example.

In the end, all forms of injustice that might occur on earth, that are seemingly not balanced out in this life, will be judged by God and dealt with according to His own Justice. He is the only one that has the power to make all things right. He will decide who will be rewarded for their actions and who will be required to make restitution for theirs, in the next world. He will always have the final word regarding all Justice, and His Judgements are always true and fair. We can all rest assured that God will balance out all injustices perpetrated against us, through His Judgements. In the end, we just need to trust Him to actually do that for us.

Dear Talstar

You said: “God demands that we always deal with all things according to true justice, but His example teaches us that we must also temper our sense of justice toward others with love and mercy, as He always does with us.”

It means to my that his love and mercy limit his justice, And my problem is it is a limitation for God, because his justice is essential. This is my main problem.

You said: “If we learn anything at all from what Jesus did for us on the cross, it should be that love and mercy should always inspire us to forgive those that treat us unjustly, the same way He did when He said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

My problem is not on forgiving the sins, my problem is on this: God let his sinless son die for his sinner humans, because he loved them and his sinless son was Volunteer. Yes it is love, But as I asked it several times, Can a just judge accept this?

 

[fhansen]

So do you mean that God may do some thing that is not justly(!) because of his mercy?! And is not it a Weakness for God’s judgment, while His mercy trriumphs it?

It means he’ll do something good because of His mercy. It means He forgives-and asks us to do the same-in order to heal the world. Then He tells us to sin no more, with the promise of helping us accomplish that feat.

 

[javid]

It means he’ll do something good because of His mercy. It means He forgives-and asks us to do the same-in order to heal the world. Then He tells us to sin no more, with the promise of helping us accomplish that feat.

Dear fhansen

My problem is on this goodness. You said he’ll do some thing good and I need be sure that is good. And problem is not on forgiving, it is on: A sinless one gives price instead if sinner people and God accepts it, because he loves sinner people.

If God forgives us it is fair, but it is not fair to God let a sinless one pay price instead of us, even if he loves us.

 

[Telstar]

Dear Talstar

You said: “God demands that we always deal with all things according to true justice, but His example teaches us that we must also temper our sense of justice toward others with love and mercy, as He always does with us.”

It means to my that his love and mercy limit his justice, And my problem is it is a limitation for God, because his justice is essential. This is my main problem.

If we consider things from our own human perspective, then you might be correct in your assumption that God’s Justice is somehow ‘limited’, in a way. But, God doesn’t judge things in the same way we would.“Isaias 55: [6] Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. [7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. [8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.”
God is very far above us in His ways of doing all things. We can’t even begin to understand how or why He does them, but we have to have faith, and believe that He always has a good reason.

You said: “If we learn anything at all from what Jesus did for us on the cross, it should be that love and mercy should always inspire us to forgive those that treat us unjustly, the same way He did when He said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

My problem is not on forgiving the sins, my problem is on this: God let his sinless son die for his sinner humans, because he loved them and his sinless son was Volunteer. Yes it is love, But as I asked it several times, Can a just judge accept this?

As I said, God’s ways are not our ways. So, trying to put our own limits on God, by insisting, or even expecting, that all things should be done according to our own way of understanding them, is putting ourselves above God. That’s the kind of thinking that Adam and Eve used when they decided to disobey God, because they thought their way was better than His. And, as we all know, that’s what got us into our predicament in the first place.

We cannot expect God to do things the way we think He should do them. If He was willing to accept the sacrifice of Jesus as being necessary for our salvation, then we should also be willing to accept it, whether we think it’s ‘fair’, or not. Apparently, God thought it was fair according to His way of thinking, or it never would have happened.

 

[javid]

If we consider things from our own human perspective, then you might be correct in your assumption that God’s Justice is somehow ‘limited’, in a way. But, God doesn’t judge things in the same way we would.“Isaias 55: [6] Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. [7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. [8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.”
God is very far above us in His ways of doing all things. We can’t even begin to understand how or why He does them, but we have to have faith, and believe that He always has a good reason.

As I said, God’s ways are not our ways. So, trying to put our own limits on God, by insisting, or even expecting, that all things should be done according to our own way of understanding them, is putting ourselves above God. That’s the kind of thinking that Adam and Eve used when they decided to disobey God, because they thought their way was better than His. And, as we all know, that’s what got us into our predicament in the first place.

We cannot expect God to do things the way we think He should do them. If He was willing to accept the sacrifice of Jesus as being necessary for our salvation, then we should also be willing to accept it, whether we think it’s ‘fair’, or not. Apparently, God thought it was fair according to His way of thinking, or it never would have happened.

Dear Talstar

It is faith, not reason. Yes, we can’t understand God and we are limited beings.

My problem is what we say about him can’t be accepted by human’s understanding of justice.

 

[fhansen]

Dear fhansen

My problem is on this goodness. You said he’ll do some thing good and I need be sure that is good. And problem is not on forgiving, it is on: A sinless one gives price instead if sinner people and God accepts it, because he loves sinner people.

If God forgives us it is fair, but it is not fair to God let a sinless one pay price instead of us, even if he loves us.

First of all, as has been said, Jesus is God incarnate; when you see Him you see the Father; what He does is God doing it. When Jesus suffers, it’s God experiencing suffering. This is how we know the true heart of God, the heart of love. The price God paid was the price it took to prove that love, in spite of man’s doubt about it, about* Him*, in spite of man’s sin, in spite of man’s hatred.

 

[javid]

First of all, as has been said, Jesus is God incarnate; when you see Him you see the Father; what He does is God doing it. When Jesus suffers, it’s God experiencing suffering. This is how we know the true heart of God, the heart of love. The price God paid was the price it took to prove that love, in spite of man’s doubt about it, about* Him*, in spite of man’s sin, in spite of man’s hatred.

Dear fhansen

As you said, we discussed on these before! And as I said, my question was not on love.

 

[fhansen]

Dear fhansen

As you said, we discussed on these before! And as I said, my question was not on love.

The suffering and death was not brought about by God in response to man; it was brought about by man in response to God. And yet God endured it, forgiving all the while.

 

[Telstar]

Dear Talstar

It is faith, not reason. Yes, we can’t understand God and we are limited beings.

My problem is what we say about him can’t be accepted by human’s understanding of justice.

It really doesn’t matter if some people refuse to accept the truth because of their lack of understanding of God’s Justice. That’s their choice. Just because we, as human beings, can’t fully understand the way God does things, that certainly doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have faith in His reasons for doing them. It means that people need to adjust their own attitude and thinking. Only when we are willing to humble ourselves, and let go of our own opinions and ideas that are based on our limited human understanding (fueled by our own sense of personal pride), can we conform ourselves to the will of God.

The problem is not with what God does, but with our thinking that we want God to do things differently, so it makes more sense to us. We cannot demand that God does things according to our way of thinking. We don’t have the capacity to know what’s really good for us, or what is right in God’s eyes. Only God knows what we really need, and how we need to act. So, we’re the ones that need to change our ways, not God. If some people refuse to give up their own views, then sadly, it’s their own problem. We don’t make the rules, God does. To be perfectly blunt, they will either have to change their attitude, or they could lose their salvation through their own stubbornness. It’s all up to them whether they want to follow God, or do things their own way.

 

[Vico]

It really doesn’t matter if some people refuse to accept the truth because of their lack of understanding of God’s Justice. That’s their choice. Just because we, as human beings, can’t fully understand the way God does things, that certainly doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have faith in His reasons for doing them. It means that people need to adjust their own attitude and thinking. Only when we are willing to humble ourselves, and let go of our own opinions and ideas that are based on our limited human understanding (fueled by our own sense of personal pride), can we conform ourselves to the will of God.

The problem is not with what God does, but with our thinking that we want God to do things differently, so it makes more sense to us. We cannot demand that God does things according to our way of thinking. We don’t have the capacity to know what’s really good for us, or what is right in God’s eyes. Only God knows what we really need, and how we need to act. So, we’re the ones that need to change our ways, not God. If some people refuse to give up their own views, then sadly, it’s their own problem. We don’t make the rules, God does. To be perfectly blunt, they will either have to change their attitude, or they could lose their salvation through their own stubbornness. It’s all up to them whether they want to follow God, or do things their own way.

Re: “We don’t have the capacity to know what’s really good for us, or what is right in God’s eyes.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church****1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

 

[thenobes]

If God forgives us it is fair, but it is not fair to God let a sinless one pay price instead of us, even if he loves us.

I’m sorry that you don’t understand but the death that is due our sin is paid by us. What Christ did is to enable us to live in Him so that we would be able to die to ourselves.

But to live in Him means we must be able to be acceptable to the Father. This is where he perfect obedience of Christ propitiates for the wrong we did to the Father in our disobedience.

peace
steve

 

[Telstar]

Re: “We don’t have the capacity to know what’s really good for us, or what is right in God’s eyes.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church****1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

I sit corrected. :bowdown:

I probably could have worded that a bit better. While we may have the ‘capacity’ to know what’s right or wrong, we don’t always make the correct choice for various reasons. Many people seem to be very adept at ignoring that ‘inner voice’, and do whatever makes them ‘happy’, instead.

 

[fhansen]

If God forgives us it is fair, but it is not fair to God let a sinless one pay price instead of us, even if he loves us.

I think you miss the point. In the midst of the worst atrocity man can attempt to commit, deicide, as the target of the most awful pain and humiliation, at the hands of His own creation, God forgives man. How else do we know that kind of forgiveness, that kind of love? Actions speak louder than words. And the resurrection is the capstone, the loudest, definitive proclamation of God’s victory over sin and death for us.

 

[javid]

I’m sorry that you don’t understand but the death that is due our sin is paid by us. What Christ did is to enable us to live in Him so that we would be able to die to ourselves.

But to live in Him means we must be able to be acceptable to the Father. This is where he perfect obedience of Christ propitiates for the wrong we did to the Father in our disobedience.

peace
steve

Absolutely I understand it! But you didn’t say that! You said he died for our sins and gave price insread of US. If you say he just opened the way by his death and our sins are ours, I can accept it and there is no problem.

 

[javid]

I think you miss the point. In the midst of the worst atrocity man can attempt to commit, deicide, as the target of the most awful pain and humiliation, at the hands of His own creation, God forgives man. How else do we know that kind of forgiveness, that kind of love? Actions speak louder than words. And the resurrection is the capstone, the loudest, definitive proclamation of God’s victory over sin and death for us.

Dear fhansen

My problem is not on forgiveness. My problems is that God let a sinless one suffers and dies for paying price of sins of others.It is absolutely his love to us, But problem is on God’s perfect justice.

 

[fhansen]

**

Dear fhansen

My problem is not on forgiveness. My problems is that God let a sinless one suffers and dies for paying price of sins of others.It is absolutely his love to us, But problem is on God’s perfect justice.

He didn’t let a sinless one die; He, the sinless one, died, and, difficult as that was, He was happy to pay that price. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all once one and the same God.

 

[javid]

**

He didn’t let a sinless one die; He, the sinless one, died, and, difficult as that was, He was happy to pay that price. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all once one and the same God.

I think we talked about this and I said you that only human nature of Lord Jesus died on cross. How do you think a self-exist die? Do you really think that God Was dead for three days? You said death means separation between body and soul; That’s O.K but God is simple and we can’t imagine 2 parts in him, to separation between them means death.(Exuse me: My Language is not English!)