Original Sin, the basis for Christianity?

[sara888]

Why is it that there are atheists who believe that all of life is purposeless and meaningless, yet they seem to have found meaning in communicating this to anyone who doesn’t agree?

For a christian, or a muslim, or heck, even a scientologist, it’s different. They believe they have the truth - that there is, in fact, a truth - and that’s it’s vital to share it with everyone, for everyone’s best interests. For an atheist? There’s no meaning whatsoever, other than ‘forced subjective meaning’.

In other words… atheists who proclaim that there is no meaning to life, the universe, existence, or morality… undermine their case the moment they start to proclaim and argue.

Why should anyone agree with that?

**
Hi Null,

Well said.!

However all of the above mentioned Religions believe in a Deity, (God or divine Creator.)

It seems more logical to believe in a God than not.

There is a meaning and purpose for why we are here,to suggest there is none is just not acceptable.

AngelJan (now sara888)**

AngelJan

 

[jmcrae]

So what does that mean? Grace of God? We now have to wait till we die and go to heaven?

Some people (Padre Pio, Little Therese de Lisieux, and Mother Teresa, for example) gain the ability here on earth to do God’s will in all things, and never sin.

This is not something they were born with - they, too, had to be baptized and washed from Original Sin, and they had to make a determined commitment to do good and not to sin.

I think part of the reason that most of us don’t become Saints while we’re here on the earth is not because we can’t but because we talk ourselves out of it - we think it will be impossible, so we don’t even try. We allow ourselves to commit a few venial sins, and the next thing we know, we really blow it and we have to go to Confession again.

But the three I mentioned above, along with many, many others, took their venial sins to Confession, and because they took their venial sins to Confession, their little sins never had any opportunity to grow up to be big sins.

So Jesus was supposed to have given us the grace back when we died then right?

We get the grace back when we are baptized. At that point, what we do with it is up to us. All baptized people have the ability to become Saints - if they act on that opportunity.

What does grace do for us?

It gives us the ability to know how to do good things, and how to avoid committing sins.

How are we any different now than when we were then.

It depends on the individual. In Little Therese’s case, she became less self-centred. She was able to be kind and loving to others, even when they were talking about her behind her back, and blaming her for things that she had not even done. Toward the end of her life, there was a young man who was trying to tempt her away from her vocation. Instead, she sweetly and gently talked him into becoming a priest. In Padre Pio’s case, he became less vain and prideful about his appearance and reputation. Instead, he began to simply do the best he could without worrying about other people’s opinion of him. He became so absorbed in helping others that he even began to bi-locate (be in two places at the same time) and perform miracles, because he was doing it out of love for them - in some cases he didn’t even realize that there had been a miracle until someone thanked him for it.

Is grace like brownie points for when we die? Do they determine whether or not we can go to heaven?

Grace is the ability to become a Saint. Since we will be Saints when we get to Heaven, we might as well get in some practice, now.

We get grace by participating fully and prayerfully in the Sacraments. It is worth noting that all of the people I mentioned above went to Confession at least once a week, and received Holy Communion every day, when possible. They also prayed constantly, using the Rosary and the Divine Office at the appointed times of the day, as well as praying in their own words throughout the day.

 

[YinYangMom]

-YingYangMom

Right, sin is an outcome of free will, God created us with free will, so God created us capable of evil, and in some cases evil. But now, since God is all-knowing, he consciously knew he was creating evil. Evil was not born when Satan rebelled against God. It does not say God created Hell, then sent Satan and his demons there, it just said he cast him there, meaning that Hell had already existed.

God created us capable of choosing His will or our wil****l.

God did not create evil. Everything God created was good. Evil is not good, therefore God did not create it. It seems the reason you are having an issue with this is your understanding of the word ‘evil’.

According to the Catechism (Section Two: Chapter One: Article 1: Paragraph 7. The Fall)

II.391 … "Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil.” The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.”

The quoted bold part is referenced in the catechism as coming from the Latean Council IV (1215): DS 800.

According to Scripture: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned…” Rom 5:12, 19

“Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, son one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.” Rom 5:18

Adam succumbed to the temptations of Satan…Satan, having been condemned to hell certainly has a bone to pick with God and will always be envious/jealous of God’s love for man, and so he will unrelentedly continue to lure souls from God to his own damnation.

Adam did not really have free will since he did not have knowledge of the choice to do what he wanted, and yet he did when he Chose to eat the apple. It’s a contradiction. It is not the fault of man that we are sinful, it is the way God created us.

Of course he had knowledge of the choice to do what he wanted.

Genesis 2 16-17
The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it. The Lord God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden** except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.**”

Doesn’t get any clearer than that…honor the Lord by **not **eating the fruit of that tree, or dishonor the Lord **and **be doomed to die.

You said that we were made aware of evil when Adam ate the fruit, but not sinning since you said they were different. So if lust is evil, then stealing, cheating, coveting, lying, killing, greed, etc would all reasonably be considered evil as well (sex is worse than none). So what sins does that leave us that is not evil? Disobeying? Could be, but that is minor. Worshipping false idols? They aren’t real so why does it matter? So sins are evil.

No contradiction. Sin is not in itself evil. Sin opens the way toward becoming evil.

 

[YinYangMom]

You say then here that lust (pre-maridal sex, etc) is evil (since they were made aware after eating).

Lust is not evil. Lusting is a sin, it’s a sign of weakness. We can lust once, not harm anyone with those thoughts, yet recognize the error of our ways, seek forgiveness and become stronger about resisting that temptation in the future.

The person who denies lust is a sign of weakness, takes their thoughts further to action when they sexually assault the object of their lust. They could do it through manipulation so as to make it appear it was mutual consent, or they could do it as a matter of assault or rape. Denying even taking the lust from thought to action as being wrong enables the person to not only continue assaulting others, but gets a rush from doing so…that is evil. The accumulation of sin after sin after sin after sin builds to the point that evil is allowed into the person’s being.

Evil, in essence is what happens when a person dies to Satan instead of dying to Christ. We are called to lay down our lives for God…that means we deny our own earthly wants and desires so as to gain entrance into heaven. Our earthly will has to be given freely over to God’s heavenly will, emptying ourselves so that we can become full of His Spirit and thus do His works while on earth. When one empties themself freely to do Satan’s will, then they become full with sin and that’s when one turns from a sinner to an evil person. It is not a common occurrence for God has instituted many means of saving grace for those afflicted by the temptations of Satan.

You make it seem as though one can turn evil at the snap of a finger. Closer examination will reveal a continued pattern of behavior tending toward sinful acts, unless, of course one is possessed, but even in that case - the person being possessed doesn’t become evil him/herself - thus exorcism (another weapon against Satan Christ left with the Church) can cast out the demon and return the person to his/her normal state.

Right, so in order for free will to be, it was inevitable that we would choose sin. And God created us knowing this, so in effect, he did not make us “good,” but partly evil as well.

Nope. It was not inevitable, that’s the point. It was a choice made by one person which affected all other persons. The prime example of the philosophy that none of us exists in a vaccuum - that every action we take affects others one way or another. Eve could just as well have said no to satan…just as Adam could just as well have said no to Eve (I wonder how that would have turned out!)…and Mary could have said no to the Angel.

WE ARE good. We choose to do bad things. The things we choose are good or bad. When we choose to do good things it leads us to holiness. When we choose to do bad things it leads us to evil.

 

[YinYangMom]

Oh, they certainly knew about the wrong choice. God explicitely told it to Adam. And God knew that curiosity would get to them.

Ok, I see you got that passage correct…
and I get why you say God knew curiosity would get to them since God is all-knowing outside the bounds of time/space and all…so I’m following you so far…

Though I’d look at it as more as God knew that Satan would tempt Eve and then Adam through Eve rather than dismissing it as curiosity getting the best of them.

Yes! They did need to know it in order to have Free Will! Choice requires choices to choose from, which they did not have.

Here you contradict yourself.
You said above that they knew about the wrong choice - including the consequences for making that choice…
and now you say they did not have that knowledge…

“Let’s Make a Deal”…you can choose what’s behind door #1, door #2 or door #3 (yeah, I know, I’ve just dated myself )…
not knowing what’s behind those doors does not take away the freedom to choose one of the options. The free will applies to our ability to choose. Period. It’s not about choosing outcomes.

Okay, so in other words, nothing, it is a meaningless term. Because in order to get grace we must already love, serve, and please him, which you say grace gives us the ability to do. But if that is not the case, that would mean that God bestows grace on each of us randomly or when we were born, and we can’t change the “amount” we have.]

When we are given life, the breath of the Holy Spirit enters into our being (at conception). In that moment our souls are stamped with the knowledge of He Who Created Us. After we are born, we are able to cognitively (in time) come to ‘know’ Him. The grace is already within us because of the Holy Spirit that is why even non-baptized people can go to heaven if they were never cognitively introduced to God, to Jesus, but followed their hearts in all they did.

If they followed their heart and their heart was aligned with what God stamped on it, they’d do good works. They wouldn’t be aware that they were doing God’s will. They wouldn’t know why they were doing the good deeds, they would just ‘instinctively know’ it was the right thing to do. Well going through life doing good deeds certainly isn’t going to condemn you to hell. That’s why the Church teaches that the judgement is God’s to make.

You probably subscribe to the belief that a person can be born evil…that a person would go about doing bad things all their life because they ‘instinctively knew’ it was the right thing to do. But that’s just not true. Even those who do bad things as early as they can remember instinctively know they were bad things they were doing. They just didn’t care. Why? That’s probably the million dollar question.

 

[Hubriss]

In other words I dont know would be acceptable for you as to the reasons of why we are here,rather than the Christian understanding.

Not understanding, belief.

First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways.

Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.

Right, so God made us part evil. The universe is not “good.” Adam eating the fruit did not create evil, it did not make us aware of evil, evil was already here.

Sin is rebellion against God ,. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.

He created the fallen world, the world did not fall after he created this. You’ll see this especially if you accept the Big Bang as the way the universe came about while you maintain that there is “truth” in Genesis.
And so he toys with us. He goes “Haha, look what I can do, I can create evil, and I can destroy evil, and you are all screwed unless you believe what others say.” Really, you’d think that saving us from sin and evil and death is a good enough reason to reveal himself to more than just a couple people, then never again.

God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will

That sounds like our judicial system. But there’s a difference. In our system, we have all the rules written out for us, and they are confermed to be enforced because we witness the punishment of criminals every day, there is no such thing with religion. We cannot see if Jimmy really went to Heaven or Hell, there’s no substance.

Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought.

Right, so if he created us with freedom of thought, free will, then he made his “good” world part evil, we did not suddenly become aware or capable of it once we disobeyed, because we were already knowledgable of it from the beginning.

 

[YinYangMom]

We cannot see if Jimmy really went to Heaven or Hell, there’s no substance.

Actually, there have been several recorded incidents of saints (visions) and others (near death experiences) being blessed with the opportunity to see just that. Apparently not everyone gets to see where Jimmy ends up, but on occasion, God does allow some people to catch that glimpse.

 

[Hubriss]

Why is it that there are atheists who believe that all of life is purposeless and meaningless, yet they seem to have found meaning in communicating this to anyone who doesn’t agree?

For a christian, or a muslim, or heck, even a scientologist, it’s different. They believe they have the truth - that there is, in fact, a truth - and that’s it’s vital to share it with everyone, for everyone’s best interests. For an atheist? There’s no meaning whatsoever, other than ‘forced subjective meaning’.

In other words… atheists who proclaim that there is no meaning to life, the universe, existence, or morality… undermine their case the moment they start to proclaim and argue.

-Null
Here’s the answer, are you ready? Because when we are all dead and gone, no one will remember us. Our affects on this planet will be meaningless, especially after our Sun blows up, and no one will remember us.

But, there is meaning to us now, in the current. Our lives are affected by our experiences of people, sensations, feelings, places, things, etc. And that all matters to us because it affects us, our being. Our lives have meaning to us because we are, now. We all believe there is a Truth, no one denies that there is a Truth. Truth is what is despite what we believe. There is a truth, we just don’t know it. By the way, I’m not atheist, I’m agnostic. Most people who don’t believe in the major or minor religions are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hubriss
Also, I think Everyone will agree that it would be more of a sin to not eat of the fruit of knowledge and remain ignorant, then it would be to eat and be able to experience the world we live in freely.

Why should anyone agree with that?

-Null
Do you know all you need or want to know? And like I said before, we wouldn’t be capable of choosing if we did not have choices.

It seems more logical to believe in a God than not.

-Sara
That depends. If your idea of a god is the Christian god, then it is not more logical. But, if your idea of god is a power that may or may not be thinking or personal (most likely not thinking or personal since we’ve never had any experience of it), then yes, it is more logical.

There is a meaning and purpose for why we are here,to suggest there is none is just not acceptable.

-Sara
Okay. What is it? And how do you know?

We get the grace back when we are baptized. At that point, what we do with it is up to us. All baptized people have the ability to become Saints - if they act on that opportunity.

-jmcrae
Okay, so then people who aren’t baptised are screwed, gotcha.

Grace gives us the ability to know how to do good things, and how to avoid committing sins.

-jmcrae
I will have to respond with a big resounding NOPE. So that would mean that people who aren’t baptised would not know the difference between right and wrong. That would also mean that it is not more logical to believe there is a god since people who aren’t baptised can’t understand it (contrary to what sara said). Also, that is just stupid, anyone can know how to do good things.

 

[Hubriss]

God did not create evil. Everything God created was good. Evil is not good, therefore God did not create it. It seems the reason you are having an issue with this is your understanding of the word ‘evil’.

Those four sentences are entirely wrong. That would be like saying, “God didn’t create humans, he created the big bang, he had nothing to do with humans.” I understand evil in every sense of the word. I clearly explained the reasoning several times to you, and yet you still do not get it. God created everything good? Yet there are evil people. Did God not create them?

According to Scripture: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned…” Rom 5:12, 19

“Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, son one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.” Rom 5:18

Adam succumbed to the temptations of Satan…Satan, having been condemned to hell certainly has a bone to pick with God and will always be envious/jealous of God’s love for man, and so he will unrelentedly continue to lure souls from God to his own damnation.

-YingYangMom

Yes, but God created us to sin. If he did not create us to sin, then Adam would have never disobeyed God. He created disobeying creatures and therefore, sinful creatures. If you can’t understand this causality then you must not also understand the argument for god through causality.

Of course he had knowledge of the choice to do what he wanted.

Genesis 2 16-17
The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it. The Lord God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.”

Doesn’t get any clearer than that…honor the Lord by not eating the fruit of that tree, or dishonor the Lord and be doomed to die.

-YingYang
Jeez! Would you please try to read and understand the whole thing for once!? Again, Adam necessarily must have had the knowledge of good and bad already in order to be held accountable for disobeying God! It is a contradiction.

No contradiction. Sin is not in itself evil. Sin opens the way toward becoming evil.

Oh, ok, so killing someone is not evil? Lusting and having sex out of marriage is not evil? People are evil because they do evil things. They occure at the same time, nothing “opens the way” for anything.

Lust is not evil. Lusting is a sin, it’s a sign of weakness. We can lust once, not harm anyone with those thoughts, yet recognize the error of our ways, seek forgiveness and become stronger about resisting that temptation in the future.

-YingYang
Ah, but you contradict again. You say that the fruit of knowledge gave knowledge of good and evil, not sinning. You said that Adam was already knowledgable of sinning. You said “they became aware of their nakedness, and were ashamed.” But he wasn’t knowledgable of lust and sex? How is that if lust and out of marriage sex is not evil?

Evil, in essence is what happens when a person dies to Satan instead of dying to Christ.

-YingYang
You don’t need to put it in wierd terms to try and confuse. That means the same thing as: Evil in essence is what happens when a person commits an evil act, instead of a good one.

 

[Hubriss]

You make it seem as though one can turn evil at the snap of a finger. Closer examination will reveal a continued pattern of behavior tending toward sinful acts, unless, of course one is possessed, but even in that case - the person being possessed doesn’t become evil him/herself - thus exorcism (another weapon against Satan Christ left with the Church) can cast out the demon and return the person to his/her normal state.

-YingYang

Closer examination? What are you talking about? If someone murders a family, or even seriously thinks of murdering a family, isn’t that evil? It doesn’t have to be a “continued pattern.” Wouldn’t you agree that one can turn evil say if he finds a guy he really doesn’t like, plans to kill him in the next couple minutes, then does? He is not evil then? He doesn’t have to continuously murder, most would think one is enough.

Nope. It was not inevitable, that’s the point. It was a choice made by one person which affected all other persons.

Yes, it was inevitable. Even if Adam didn’t do it, but his descendants did, it would be inevitable eventually. Statistically even, but it happened with the first generation! Yes, it was inevitable.

Here you contradict yourself.
You said above that they knew about the wrong choice - including the consequences for making that choice…
and now you say they did not have that knowledge…

“Let’s Make a Deal”…you can choose what’s behind door #1, door #2 or door #3 (yeah, I know, I’ve just dated myself )…
not knowing what’s behind those doors does not take away the freedom to choose one of the options. The free will applies to our ability to choose. Period. It’s not about choosing outcomes.

-YingYang
It’s not a contradiction, I said that purposely. The whole point is that we can’t hold that God both created us with free will, and that he created us totally good, without evil, and that it was totally Adam’s fault for making original sin. But I agree we have free will, so God did not create a perfectly good universe. BUT, if you believe that God did create us good, then he did not truely create us with free will, we only gained free will after eating the fruit.

 

[Hubriss]

Actually, there have been several recorded incidents of saints (visions) and others (near death experiences) being blessed with the opportunity to see just that. Apparently not everyone gets to see where Jimmy ends up, but on occasion, God does allow some people to catch that glimpse.

-YingYang

So, everyone’s just going to have to take their word for it? From those few people who saw? It’s not really convincing to me at all.

Alright, I gotta go for now. See you guys later. Thanks for the replies.

 

[YinYangMom]

-YingYang

If someone murders a family, or even seriously thinks of murdering a family, isn’t that evil?

The act is evil. The person committing the act, may or may not be consumed by evil. It seems you are not clear on the teaching of hating the sin but loving the sinner. That’s the whole premise of salvation for man. God knows we can succumb to temptations, so much so that we can become evil - if we allow things to get out of hand that much - and yet He still calls His people to reach out to those lost people so as to bring them back to Him before they die so that they may be saved.

Yes, it was inevitable. Even if Adam didn’t do it, but his descendants did, it would be inevitable eventually. Statistically even, but it happened with the first generation! Yes, it was inevitable.

Well on that you and the Catholic Church, following the revealed Truth to the Apostles, will always disagree.

The whole point is that we can’t hold that God both created us with free will, and that he created us totally good, without evil, and that it was totally Adam’s fault for making original sin. But I agree we have free will, so God did not create a perfectly good universe. BUT, if you believe that God did create us good, then he did not truely create us with free will, we only gained free will after eating the fruit.

Boy, you really can’t grasp free will as the ability to choose. Period. You also keep saying Adam introduced original sin when it was Eve who started the whole thing. Adam just went along for the ride.

In any case, even with your concept of free will, it’s impossible for mankind (Eve and Adam) to have acquired free will after eating of the fruit because eating of that fruit was in itself their excercising the free will they had in the first place.

If they didn’t have free will prior to that then they would have just done what God directed them to do without thought or reason, but that’s not what happened. Scriptural evidence shows that God spoke to them. He defined specific parameters. Eve and Adam then were able to choose which parameters to follow and which to disregard.

 

[sara888]

Not understanding, belief.

Right, so God made us part evil. The universe is not “good.” Adam eating the fruit did not create evil, it did not make us aware of evil, evil was already here.

He created the fallen world, the world did not fall after he created this. You’ll see this especially if you accept the Big Bang as the way the universe came about while you maintain that there is “truth” in Genesis.
And so he toys with us. He goes “Haha, look what I can do, I can create evil, and I can destroy evil, and you are all screwed unless you believe what others say.” Really, you’d think that saving us from sin and evil and death is a good enough reason to reveal himself to more than just a couple people, then never again.

That sounds like our judicial system. But there’s a difference. In our system, we have all the rules written out for us, and they are confermed to be enforced because we witness the punishment of criminals every day, there is no such thing with religion. We cannot see if Jimmy really went to Heaven or Hell, there’s no substance.

Right, so if he created us with freedom of thought, free will, then he made his “good” world part evil, we did not suddenly become aware or capable of it once we disobeyed, because we were already knowledgable of it from the beginning.

** God created Free will, however he still gave us a choice , there is a big difference in your understanding of this… WE made the good world evil, God did not do this or choose this… WE DID.!

People have witnessed Heaven , Hell and Purgatory… Not only thousands of Saints, but many people with Near Death Experiences… Its not a matter of taken their word for it, most if not all NDE’S are documented and the Medical Profession, along with Scientist have no explanation for medical miracles and why some people have NDE’S and other’s do Not.! The puzzling part of this is they all see the afterlife.

Jan**

 

[YinYangMom]

Those four sentences are entirely wrong. That would be like saying, “God didn’t create humans, he created the big bang, he had nothing to do with humans.” I understand evil in every sense of the word. I clearly explained the reasoning several times to you, and yet you still do not get it. God created everything good? Yet there are evil people. Did God not create them?

It is what it is.

Genesis 1:26-31

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 G****od created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.**
*28 *God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

There is absolutely no way you can convince me that man, being created in His image, His likeness, includes evil. God is not evil. There is no trace of evil in His entire being therefore we cannot be created with evil inside us. Yet since evil does exist (thanks to the fall of the angels) we have to deal with it.

I still thing you get stuck on believing evil is something of substance that God created, as he did air, or water. It’s my understanding (and I could be wrong) that evil is more the absence of God/good/light than anything else. That it was Satan’s no, the rejection of God’s will by a being which possessed absolute knowledge, which introduced evil, as we know it, to existence.

With free will, which the angels possess, comes the ability to willing say yes to God, or to say No. So long as the angels said yes, everything was good, in right order. But the instant the angels said no, separation from God existed and from that separation comes anger, resentment, envy, jealousy, hatred and so on. Like little toddlers who don’t get their way…all they know is that they are not happy so they lash out and everyone and everything around them. They may not mean to hurt anyone or to destroy property but they just can’t contain the emotions they are experiencing. So it is, I imagine, with Satan and his minions, they are so miserable they attack and attack and attack anything the God loves.

Yes, but God created us to sin.

God created us to know Him, to love Him and to serve Him. Period.

He created disobeying creatures and therefore, sinful creatures.

If you can’t understand this causality then you must not also understand the argument for god through causality.

The only argument I have for God comes from His Word, as revealed to me through the teaching of the apostles (via the Catholic Church) and Scripture.

 

[YinYangMom]

Jeez! Would you please try to read and understand the whole thing for once!? Again, Adam necessarily must have had the knowledge of good and bad already in order to be held accountable for disobeying God! It is a contradiction.

I think we agreed that Eve and Adam were given knowledge of good and bad when God expressly told them that eating of that fruit would doom them to death. I don’t believe they had such knowledge before God revealed it to them.

The thing is, as with any toddler or child, as a parent we tell them things in simplistic terms. We tell them to not touch fire because that would be bad - because it will hurt. Not touching fire would be good. Certainly we can take the time to tell the child all the ramifications of heat on skin over a duration of time and so on, but it isn’t necessary at that point.

While God told Eve and Adam that eating of the apple would be bad - and that it would doom them to death - He didn’t reveal the specifics of all that ‘bad’ entails - lust, greed, anger, hatred, gluttony, and so on. He gave them the bottom line: eat and die. Not: eat and you’ll suffer from all these individual symptoms as He goes down the list of unending evil actions.

The toddler doesn’t have full knowledge from which to make his decision to touch the fire or not. He does have love and trust of his parent to help him make that choice. Just as Eve and Adam and you and I do. We know God loves us and we can trust in His love to know with absolute certainty that if He tells us not to do something it’s for our own good and so we choose to follow His guidelines. It is Satan and his temptations which lure us away from God. It isn’t ingrained in our being to do so.

Oh, ok, so killing someone is not evil? Lusting and having sex out of marriage is not evil? People are evil because they do evil things. They occure at the same time, nothing “opens the way” for anything.

Killing someone in and of itself is not evil. One would have to look at the intent. It is most certainly a sin.

Lusting and having sex out of marriage is not evil. It is a sin. If done with full knowledge and consent it’s even mortal. But not evil.

People are not evil in and of themselves. They do evil things. I come from an understanding that evil is a really, really bad thing, so bad that we aren’t to use the word lightly, but rather sparingly. Just as love is such a really, really good thing, so good that we should use the word sparingly and not as loosely as we do (I love spinach). I concede it’s possible that understanding is limited. I will look further into where I got that impression.

Ah, but you contradict again. You say that the fruit of knowledge gave knowledge of good and evil, not sinning.
You said that Adam was already knowledgable of sinning. You said “they became aware of their nakedness, and were ashamed.” But he wasn’t knowledgable of lust and sex? How is that if lust and out of marriage sex is not evil?

I should have been more clear. Eve knew God did not want her to eat that fruit or she would die. She didn’t know what death entailed. It wasn’t until after she ate the fruit that she came to know the rest…she had the end but not everything that goes in between. Immediately she runs to Adam to get him to eat of the fruit too, so as to share the blame. In that instant she put her own needs above Adams. A loving wife would have accepted the consequences for her decision but protect her husband from suffering the same fate. Eve did not do this because she had eaten the fruit.

Evil in essence is what happens when a person commits an evil act, instead of a good one.

A person brings evil into a situation when a person chooses to do an evil act. But the person is not evil in and of himself. He chooses evil actions over good actions.

Let’s look at the other side…a person can choose to do good deeds over and over again. That can lead to holiness and sainthood but that doesn’t mean the person was born holy and/or a saint.

People are born in the image and likeness of God.
We then travel through this world making choices, constantly making choices.
The choices we make can lead to holiness or to damnation.

By the way, I agree this has been an interesting discussion. Thank you for raising it.

 

[YinYangMom]

-YingYang

So, everyone’s just going to have to take their word for it? From those few people who saw? It’s not really convincing to me at all.

No, everyone doesn’t **have **to take their word for it.

I’m just pointing out that some people have indeed seen souls in purgatory, and souls who have reached heaven, and have learned through other souls in heaven when a soul was condemned.

You were saying that doesn’t happen.
It does, on occasion, but certainly not on a regular basis, and not for all people.

When it comes to the saints’ visions, those have been authenticated so one is free to accept or reject the substance of the vision, but cannot deny the vision occured.

 

[Hubriss]

The act is evil. The person committing the act, may or may not be consumed by evil. It seems you are not clear on the teaching of hating the sin but loving the sinner. That’s the whole premise of salvation for man. God knows we can succumb to temptations, so much so that we can become evil - if we allow things to get out of hand that much - and yet He still calls His people to reach out to those lost people so as to bring them back to Him before they die so that they may be saved.

-YingYang

That just makes no sense at all. If a person who does evil deeds is not judged as evil, then why does anyone go to hell?

Quote:
Yes, it was inevitable. Even if Adam didn’t do it, but his descendants did, it would be inevitable eventually. Statistically even, but it happened with the first generation! Yes, it was inevitable.

Well on that you and the Catholic Church, following the revealed Truth to the Apostles, will always disagree.

-YingYang

Whether we agree or not makes no difference. The fact would still be that God knew Adam would do disobey him. But like I said before, Truth isn’t affected by what we think.

Boy, you really can’t grasp free will as the ability to choose. Period. You also keep saying Adam introduced original sin when it was Eve who started the whole thing. Adam just went along for the ride.

Yes I can grasp the concept, and I believe we have always had it. And God was the one who introduced it, not Adam or Eve, because he told them that it was against his will.

In any case, even with your concept of free will, it’s impossible for mankind (Eve and Adam) to have acquired free will after eating of the fruit because eating of that fruit was in itself their excercising the free will they had in the first place.

Right. They were already capable of sinning and evil, so God did not make them “good.”

God created Free will, however he still gave us a choice , there is a big difference in your understanding of this… WE made the good world evil, God did not do this or choose this… WE DID.!

-Sara

Yes he did. That is my point. God intentionally made the world evil by introducing us and our evil choices into it. And supposedly he Knew this because he is supposedly All-Knowing.

 

[Hubriss]

There is absolutely no way you can convince me that man, being created in His image, His likeness, includes evil. God is not evil. There is no trace of evil in His entire being therefore we cannot be created with evil inside us. Yet since evil does exist (thanks to the fall of the angels) we have to deal with it.

-YingYang

Can I convince you that the Bible is made up?

Besides, since God created us in His image and likeness, again, disobedience would not have been in the genetic makeup.

-YingYang

Haha! See!? You just revealed another contradiction! Nice job. If God had created us in his image and likeness, we would not have disobeyed right? But we did! So we must not have been created in his image and likeness, right!? RIGHT!?

I think we agreed that Eve and Adam were given knowledge of good and bad when God expressly told them that eating of that fruit would doom them to death. I don’t believe they had such knowledge before God revealed it to them.

YingYang

Then what did eating the fruit do? Nothing. We were already knowledgable of good and bad, evil. And since God created us sinners, the concept of him creating us good, and it’s our fault there is original sin, is stupid.

Lusting and having sex out of marriage is not evil. It is a sin. If done with full knowledge and consent it’s even mortal. But not evil.

-YingYang

Oh, so sex out of marriage is only evil if you think it’s evil? Remember, personal ideas doesn’t affect truth. Remember, you said earlier that they became aware of their nakedness and were ashamed once they ate the fruit. Yet you still try to hold that they were not aware of evil until they ate, but were aware of sin. So why weren’t they ashamed of their nakedness before they ate?

When it comes to the saints’ visions, those have been authenticated so one is free to accept or reject the substance of the vision, but cannot deny the vision occured.

-YingYang

What in the world does that mean? They can reject or accept the substance but they cannot deny it? They can very well deny it. And the people who “authenticate” them don’t have any experience of it. They just think about it, if it could have possibly happened. They take into consideration the person’s “goodness or holyness,” and if they are holy or innocent people, and if it seems the vision has some purpose, they accept it. It’s not definite or based on any “evidense” other than what the person says.

You cannot hold each of these ideas and still be consistent.

1. God created everything good.
2. God created man with free will.
3. God did not knowingly create evil deeds.
4. Adam and Eve brought about original sin and evil.

 

[YinYangMom]

-YingYang

That just makes no sense at all. If a person who does evil deeds is not judged as evil, then why does anyone go to hell?

Because they do not repent of their evil **deeds **before they die.
Mary Magdalene was a sinner who was redeemed through her acceptance of Jesus, she repented of her ways and refrained from further offending God. Jesus welcomed her into His heart. Now why would he do that if she, herself, was evil? Because she wasn’t. Her deeds were sinful, but not so much as to turn her heart into evil itself - thus she had the capacity for regret and remorse, and was able to seek forgiveness. Jesus gave that forgiveness though he, as a jew, could have still stoned her to death justly as the law allowed at the time.

Right. They were already capable of sinning and evil, so God did not make them “good.”

Capable of choosing. That’s all. No more, no less.
How do you explain God making them in His image and having evil be a part of that image?

 

[jmcrae]

Evil is not a “thing” - it is simply the absence of good.

It results in tangible consequences, but evil itself is literally nothing - it is an absence where there should have been something there.

Murder is the tangible consequence of an absence of reconciliation, for example.

Hubris, you said,

-jmcrae
I will have to respond with a big resounding NOPE. So that would mean that people who aren’t baptised would not know the difference between right and wrong. That would also mean that it is not more logical to believe there is a god since people who aren’t baptised can’t understand it (contrary to what sara said). Also, that is just stupid, anyone can know how to do good things.

All of us have a certain amount of grace to begin with - otherwise we would be unable to choose to get baptized. Indeed, we would be unable to exist at all, since we (and everything that is created) is held in place by God’s love. Without God’s love, we would cease ever to have existed at all - so obviously, we all have some grace, to begin with.

But Baptism washes away Original Sin and makes us not only a creature of God, but a child of God. As we increase in grace, we are less and less tempted to sin, until finally we become unable to sin at all, and we are then able to live in Heaven. (Someone who is still capable of sinning would not be able to go to Heaven.)

For most of us, we will attain that state after centuries and centuries in Purgatory. Many more of us will die in a state of unrepented sin, and go to Hell. But there are some (as I mentioned before) who are able to attain the fullness of grace even in this life, and who go directly to Heaven at the time of death.