Original Sin - Would it have happened eventually?

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ynotzap said:
Interesting post: I offer my opinion in efforts to be in accord with the Church, in all events my judgement is submissive to Church teaching.

God is the Supreme Truth , Omniscient,infinite knowledge, incapable of error. infallible.
Human are created, finite, and fallible. They can share in "infallibility by “endowment” by Divine assistance such as the Church does, not by inspiration nor revelation (Catholic Doctrine)
St. Thomas Aquinas states that one of the characteristic that make up our nature is Potency (the capacity to actualize or to become,) and Act, to be real (or the fulfillment of the potential) This is the principle of change. We are always changing.

God is Pure Act, complete, no potency. Pure Being, Existence no change

Creation and infallibility are opposing concepts one (creation) is finite, the other (infallibility) is infinite
one is changeable , the other unchangeable, one is created, the other uncreated, one is fallible, the other infallible.
Infallibility in humans is an "endowment from God, Divine assistance.
God can not create an infallible being
Adam was the first perfect man( perfect here meaning complete, but not divine) sharing in Divine Grace, by the Holy Spirit with gifts of integrity and justice. He wasn’t ignorant but he didn,t have full knowledge, nor could he. He was tempted to be like God, knowing good and evil. When he fell, because of his changeableness, his fallibility, he lost the Holy Spirit of truth, the gift of justice, and integrity. As the Church states in her doctrine that mankind received this sin by descent, and if Adam had made the right choice(humility instead of pride) his posterity would have received the blessings that would come from his right choice. So I was wrong in my statement about his posterity making the same mistake as Adam, they are not in the state of grace that Adam was, he was in a perfect state, we are not. He wasn’t handicapped, we are spiritually handicapped. This was the purpose of Jesus Christ’s entrance into the world, to bring us back to that state of grace that Adam had, to have that relationship he had with God, to give us His Spirit, to make all things right.

We share in Divine Life by the gift of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth and holiness, to become like God, not to become God I am open to corrections
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If Adam didn’t have full knowledge, God couldn’t have held him accountable along with satan.
If we are to believe man fell in the beginning, then we should understand he knew exactly what he was doing, not only to himself, but to the whole of the human race…
 
How could Adam have full knowledge. He lacked the knowledge of Good and evil, the fruit, apple was that knowledge. Only God has infinite and full knowledge, not man. This was the the object used in forming the temptation by Satan, If you eat this fruit of good and evil you will be like God. God said :You can eat other fruit, except this one (paraphrase)
 
He could hold them accountable for the knowledge they did have even if it wasn’t nor could it be infinite knowledge, they were both created, Satan and Adam and Eve.
 
ynotzap said:
How could Adam have full knowledge. He lacked the knowledge of Good and evil, the fruit, apple was that knowledge. Only God has infinite and full knowledge, not man. This was the the object used in forming the temptation by Satan, If you eat this fruit of good and evil you will be like God. God said :You can eat other fruit, except this one (paraphrase)
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I don’t know how Adam could have full knowledge, I also don’t know how he couldn’t. The story only makes sense to me if I think of the first two humans making a decision, based on knowledge of what would happen to the future of the human race. If they didn’t know, and were innocent victims of satan’s lies, then the God I know wouldn’t have held them accountable in their innocence. Only satan would have been punished.

Just my thinking…
 
simpleas said:
I don’t know how Adam could have full knowledge, I also don’t know how he couldn’t. The story only makes sense to me if I think of the first two humans making a decision, based on knowledge of what would happen to the future of the human race. If they didn’t know, and were innocent victims of satan’s lies, then the God I know wouldn’t have held them accountable in their innocence. Only satan would have been punished.

Just my thinking…
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Adam didn’t need to know the consequences; he was simply given the opportunity to obey - that’s all that was asked of him and he failed in that.
 
Would God punish an innocent person?. A sin is judged by intention,and knowledge and a serious matter . What was their intention and temptation, to have knowledge of good and evil, to be like gods, they disobeyed God, they had full knowledge of what they were doing, and they were told that ,if they disobeyed they would die. Serious matter because death entered into the world and they were prevented from eating from the tree of life.

Having full knowledge of what they were doing, doesn’t mean they had all knowledge.
 
Remember Adam was in the state of grace, enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Ignorance came as a consequence of sin, Adam had not sinned yet , also with his enlightenment his guilt was very serious, disobeying God. The more you are gifted by God, the more you are responsible for your actions. He didn’t suffer from concupisence, or ignorance, or a weak will. these were the consequences of his sin, a sin of pride, same as Satan"s. The consequences were very serious , unredeemable by man. Instead of adoring God by submission to His will, they submitted to their own will, they chose themselves over God. Satan did the same thing
 
FCEGM said:
Adam didn’t need to know the consequences; he was simply given the opportunity to obey - that’s all that was asked of him and he failed in that.
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Great, so God just gave him a simple command, without revealing what, it could mean should he disobey, because death wasn’t only the consequence…

Adam was a graceful, highly spiritual human being, the first of his kind, not just an animal, who should obey his master without understanding why…
 
simpleas said:
Great, so God just gave him a simple command, without revealing what, it could mean should he disobey, because death wasn’t only the consequence…

Adam was a graceful, highly spiritual human being, the first of his kind, not just an animal, who should obey his master without understanding why…
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Yes, because obedience is rightly due to God; He owes us no explanation. In contrast to Adam we have Abraham who was called to sacrifice his son without understanding that God would truly bless all nations through his obedience; Abraham obeyed in confusion given the promise God had made to Him regarding his posterity.
 
It wasn’t until Adam sinned that he discovered the consequences of that sin He became aware of his nakedness, and when God called Adam, Adam was afraid. God said who told you that you were naked. This indicates the effect of the sin.guilt Adam was naked all the time, but he had no guilt, but then after sinning guilt set in. You see with the Holy Spirit, and His grace all human passions were under control by the mind of Adam, his will was strong and his mind was enlightened. As a rational creature his actions were in accord with his nature, but after the fall he no longer had this control, now his passions affected his rational nature. Now he was subject to doing irrational things. This is where the doctrine of original sin and it’s effects on human nature comes from . The will of Adam was also affected it became weaker The sin of pride is more serious than the sin of human weakness. Adam didn’t have human weakness, So his test was one of humility or pride. Submitting to God, adoring Him, and thanking Him for His blessings and gifts, humility , living in the truth,they chose a lesser thing, to become like gods, living a lie, a false estimation of themselves. Their will, or God’s will Mary the New Eve stated in her Magnificat, My soul rejoices in God my Savor, because He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid (humility), from henceforth all generations shall call me Blessed, for He that is mighty has done great things TO ME. Mary showed by example what Adam and Eve should have done. Mary never denied the truth that everything done to her was from God and it made her great, but she submitted in humility and called herself a “handmaid” She always did God’s will in her life.
 
To be truthfull, humble, and grateful God still had a Divine Plan, He knew all of this would happen.
 
FCEGM said:
Yes, because obedience is rightly due to God; He owes us no explanation. In contrast to Adam we have Abraham who was called to sacrifice his son without understanding that God would truly bless all nations through his obedience; Abraham obeyed in confusion given the promise God had made to Him regarding his posterity.
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I think with our progression in knowledge and intelligence (of which I have little!) I would ask God for an explanation…

I’m not sure how to compare Abraham or anyone else with Adam. Adam was without sin, Abraham was born fallen, Abraham was trying to please God, although why God would ask for a man to murder his son or anyone else for that matter when we know God is of life not death, I am yet to understand. ( yes, God did not allow abraham to go through with it, it was a test to ensure Abrahams love of God above anything else) Adam to me, didn’t really need to please God because he was sinless and free…
 
simpleas said:
This picture shows to me a vengeful God, casting his precious children from his sight…?
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There is an e-mail chain going around which has photos of dumb things which happen in the work place including what can happen outside. For example, a person would have the one job of painting the center line on a street. Instead of painting a straight line, there is a wiggly line. In a grocery store, there was a picture of one box of fruit with the wrong label.

Adam had the one job of taking care of the garden. (Genesis 2: 15) He did not follow the directions for one tree.

Yes, that picture is a terrifying one. However, I believe that many people dismiss that picture because it looks like an old-style exaggeration of something that never happened. Even today, a valid interpretation of Adam’s role as gardener is hard to find.
 
simpleas said:
I think with our progression in knowledge and intelligence (of which I have little!) I would ask God for an explanation…
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Asking for an explanation from God reflects a lack of trust whatever our knowledge and intelligence may be (neither of which compares to simple faith in the One Who loves us).
I’m not sure how to compare Abraham or anyone else with Adam. Adam was without sin, Abraham was born fallen, Abraham was trying to please God, although why God would ask for a man to murder his son or anyone else for that matter when we know God is of life not death, I am yet to understand. ( yes, God did not allow abraham to go through with it, it was a test to ensure Abrahams love of God above anything else) Adam to me, didn’t really need to please God because he was sinless and free…
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The comparison between Adam and Abraham can be seen precisely in the state of their souls: one (before the Fall) being free from sin and the other being born with Original Sin. The one who was free from sin chose to disobey, while the one with Original Sin chose to obey - one didn’t trust, the other did. Further, one seeks to please one’s beloved; obviously Adam chose to displease through his disobedience the One Who was to be trusted in love.
 
FCEGM said:
Asking for an explanation from God reflects a lack of trust whatever our knowledge and intelligence may be (neither of which compares to simple faith in the One Who loves us).

The comparison between Adam and Abraham can be seen precisely in the state of their souls: one (before the Fall) being free from sin and the other being born with Original Sin. The one who was free from sin chose to disobey, while the one with Original Sin chose to obey - one didn’t trust, the other did. Further, one seeks to please one’s beloved; obviously Adam chose to displease through his disobedience the One Who was to be trusted in love.
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I don’t think it reflects a lack of trust in God at all, I mean if I can’t ask God about the whole meaning of O.S and the sinful world we live in, who can I ask…

Yes Adam was free from sin, but used his freewill, which would come with knowledge to choose his own path and that of the whole human race. He wasn’t in sin before the choice, so had no disordered image of God. Abraham feared God because he was in sin and knew no other way of pleasing God and so would obey through fear more than love.

The OP - Original Sin - Would it have happened eventually?

Adam was different from his decendants before the fall. If he had" taken care of the Garden" then all born from him and Eve would be as he was, free.

Would all have remained free, from making their own choices?
 
simpleas said:
I think with our progression in knowledge and intelligence (of which I have little!) I would ask God for an explanation…
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I am going to jump in quick and then duck…

Whether or not God owes us an explanation is not the point.

Seeing human nature as an unification of both the material and spiritual worlds, we should be asking God this or that, because we have the capability to ask God, because our spiritual soul is what puts us in the image of God and thus we can communicate with God. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church teaches us God’s answers.
 
laircy said:
Was the choice whether or not to obey God about the tree THE definitive choice, such as it was like the angel’s choice? If they had chosen to obey at that moment, would everything have been perfect and they would not be able to sin anymore like in heaven, or would they have kids and someone eventually come along and sin?
It’s confusing to write this, I hope it makes sense to others.
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The whole of mankind was implicated because these were the origin and we were all prospectively contained within their choice. Had they obeyed and been confirmed in grace, the human will would've never received the inclination towards disobedience -- if God had permitted temptations to come at a later date, then it would've been much harder for temptation to succeed, because the whole of human life from top to bottom would've wholly and unquestionably oriented towards God. Such a humanity would have known as well the nature and outcome of the angel's rebellion. The defeat of the fallen would've occurred at the outset of human history, and would've been definitive. Thus the very source of the contagion would've been forever contained.
 
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