Original Sin - Would it have happened eventually?

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simpleas said:
This picture shows to me a vengeful God, casting his precious children from his sight…?
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It’s a meme from www.catholicmemes.com - grannymh gave a good explanation of this particular meme. I believe that’s the angel in Genesis 3:23-24 depicted. The artwork is probably a classical piece, I don’t know what artist did it originally, perhaps someone else does. The point is, it’s a Biblical event, the meme is a bit tongue-in-cheek for those who “get” that particular type of humor, like yours truly. 😉 It’s not to everyone’s taste but some of us, well, our halos are a bit tilted now and then . . . :getholy:
 
In the first half of the 20th century, people correctly blamed Adam for Original Sin.

In the 21st century, people incorrectly blame God.
 
3DOCTORS said:
It’s a meme from www.catholicmemes.com - grannymh gave a good explanation of this particular meme. I believe that’s the angel in Genesis 3:23-24 depicted. The artwork is probably a classical piece, I don’t know what artist did it originally, perhaps someone else does. The point is, it’s a Biblical event, the meme is a bit tongue-in-cheek for those who “get” that particular type of humor, like yours truly. 😉 It’s not to everyone’s taste but some of us, well, our halos are a bit tilted now and then . . . :getholy:
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Nice to know you have a halo…don’t think I have one 😉

Usually I have a good sense of humor, but that pic just didn’t make me laugh 😦

Take care 👍
 
grannymh said:
In the first half of the 20th century, people correctly blamed Adam for Original Sin.

In the 21st century, people incorrectly blame God.
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I don’t want to blame God nor Adam, do we need to blame someone?

Why do some people no longer feel they have to believe in the first two parents of mankind causing a fall from grace?
 
grannymh said:
In the first half of the 20th century, people correctly blamed Adam for Original Sin.

In the 21st century, people incorrectly blame God.
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That is a profound insight! :idea: :newidea: I would add that I think some of the desire to blame God comes out of misplaced anger and frustration. People see great evils such as the Holocaust or 9/11, and they want to blame God for not stopping them. But the evil lies where it has been since The Original Sin took place - in the human heart.
simpleas said:
Nice to know you have a halo…don’t think I have one 😉

Usually I have a good sense of humor, but that pic just didn’t make me laugh 😦

Take care 👍
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LOL - if I do have a halo, it’s nothing compared to a Saint’s! :o I hope that even if the picture didn’t “click” for you, hopefully it didn’t offend you either, because that wasn’t my intent to offend anybody. 🙂
 
Interesting :about the Halo When we are Baptized we become adopted children of God, members of His Mystical Body, Temples of the Holy Spirit. From this I gather that we are all saints. That means we all have a halo, some halos may be tarnished by sin, but can be shined up again by the soul-wash called “reconciliation” The soul receives a shower of grace which washes away all the dirt, and it looks like new again. We never leave the family, but we may be prodigal
 
ynotzap said:
Interesting :about the Halo When we are Baptized we become adopted children of God, members of His Mystical Body, Temples of the Holy Spirit. From this I gather that we are all saints. That means we all have a halo, some halos may be tarnished by sin, but can be shined up again by the soul-wash called “reconciliation” The soul receives a shower of grace which washes away all the dirt, and it looks like new again. We never leave the family, but we may be prodigal
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Only Angels have halos don’t they? Are we humans or Angels? Part human/Angel?:angel1:

I thought one could only become a saint when a miracle is attributed to them?
:getholy:
 
grannymh said:
The nitty-gritty of Catholicism leads to a technical question. How could Adam represent humankind before he had any children?
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Because he was the prototype of all who were to follow. Some would argue that procreation was unnecessary before Adam and Eve sinned. Procreation came in only because their sin introduced death into the world and thus procreation was necessary
 
grannymh said:
The nitty-gritty of Catholicism leads to a technical question. How could Adam represent humankind before he had any children?
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ezeekl said:
Because he was the prototype of all who were to follow. Some would argue that procreation was unnecessary before Adam and Eve sinned. Procreation came in only because their sin introduced death into the world and thus procreation was necessary
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I have always been curious about the word “prototype”.:o

My dictionary says that prototype is 1: an original model on which something is patterned. 2: an individual that exhibits the essential features of a later type. etc.

The first human cannot, at the same time, be a prototype of himself. Wouldn’t that violate the principle of non-contradiction? :eek:

Please, what is your meaning of prototype? And how does that work from a Catholic position? I am sure that it works from all kinds of Christian positions. But the Catholic position, which includes the reality of one Original Sin , is the one I am interested in.
 
grannymh said:
I have always been curious about the word “prototype”.:o

My dictionary says that prototype is 1: an original model on which something is patterned. 2: an individual that exhibits the essential features of a later type. etc.

The first human cannot, at the same time, be a prototype of himself. Wouldn’t that violate the principle of non-contradiction? :eek:

Please, what is your meaning of prototype? And how does that work from a Catholic position? I am sure that it works from all kinds of Christian positions. But the Catholic position, which includes the reality of one Original Sin , is the one I am interested in.
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Think of prototype as meaning first (proto) type. Just as protocanon means first canon and deuterocanon means second. Adam in his fallen state was the prototype of all who came after for we were all patterned after (inherited) his fallen state.
 
simpleas said:
Only Angels have halos don’t they? Are we humans or Angels? Part human/Angel?:angel1:

I thought one could only become a saint when a miracle is attributed to them?
:getholy:
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Saints are everyone who is in heaven. Miracles are not needed. Their feast day is November 1. This is when we honor our family members, ancestors, and friends.:clapping:

A miracle is usually needed to make sure that someone the Church wants to honor with the “title” saint – is really in heaven.

Personally, I have always thought that a great miracle would be a beautiful snowfall – only the snow would not fall on streets, driveways, sidewalks, roofs, cars, and poles with electric wires.
:snowing:
 
ezeekl said:
Think of prototype as meaning first (proto) type. Just as protocanon means first canon and deuterocanon means second. Adam in his fallen state was the prototype of all who came after for we were all patterned after (inherited) his fallen state.
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Thank you.

Then I have to know — Please describe Adam’s fallen state so I can check my own inherited state.
 
grannymh said:
Saints are everyone who is in heaven. Miracles are not needed. Their feast day is November 1. This is when we honor our family members, ancestors, and friends.:clapping:

A miracle is usually needed to make sure that someone the Church wants to honor with the “title” saint – is really in heaven.

Personally, I have always thought that a great miracle would be a beautiful snowfall – only the snow would not fall on streets, driveways, sidewalks, roofs, cars, and poles with electric wires.
:snowing:
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I read ynotzap post as though he/she meant the living on earth were saints.🙂
 
grannymh said:
Thank you.

Then I have to know — Please describe Adam’s fallen state so I can check my own inherited state.
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This is a serious question because there are a lot of negative opinions and unusual speculations about Adam and Original Sin. I also think it is important to check out own “state” in relationship to our Creator

Sometimes, we forget that Original Sin was a one-time original event and a one-time original opportunity. If Adam had freely chosen to obey his Creator, then we would inherit his state of original holiness (aka sanctifying grace).(CCC, 404) This does not mean that we would remain sinless. We would still have to personally obey God and follow the moral norms which govern the use of freedom. (CCC, 396; CCC, 1730-1734)

Where Christians often disagree is the state of human nature. Catholicism teaches that our human nature was not totally corrupted; rather our human nature is wounded in the natural powers proper to it. Being inclined to evil summons us to spiritual battle. (CCC, 405) This is why Jesus Christ instituted the Seven Sacraments so that we would have the graces to overcome temptations. Not only that, Jesus Christ gives Himself to us in the Holy Eucharist.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
When the Church canonizes a person for Sainthood, this person has shown to have practiced a heroic virtuous life. The Church holds him up as a good example of a person to imitate who has lived a holy Christian life, a life that imitated the life of Jesus Christ The miracles are showing that God approves of this example. Formally two Miracles were required, now only one seems to be the rule. The Pope has the power to make this change.

As I stated in my pervious post when we are Baptized we are adopted sons of God, made members of His Mystical Body, Temples of the Holy Spirit, consecrated to God. Jesus becomes our Savior and Brother. At that time we are marked by the Holy Spirit as members of God’s family. If we are members we are holy, Temples of God who dwells in us. We are not sinners, but purified. And even if we do sin, the Holy Spirit has left an indelible mark on us identifying us as members. Forgiveness for our sins reinstates us in sanctifying grace, it is the grace of God that makes us Saints. WE must practice all of the virtues, especially Faith Hope, and Love, these virtue center around God, the moral virtues center around man.
How can you be in the state of grace, be a Temple of the Holy Spirit, an adopted son of God AND NOT BE A SAINT?

We must understand that there many degree of holiness, some people practice very little virtue, others practice more and others practice heroic virtue. Jesus said (when we get to heaven) “In my Father’s house there are many mansions” meaning depending on how holy you are will determine the mansion you get Mansion means the degree of glory you get.the reward for living a holy life following the teachings of Christ. So we can say there are baby saints, teenage saints, adult saints, meaning degrees of holiness. The cannonized saints are super saints.
 
grannymh said:
This is a serious question because there are a lot of negative opinions and unusual speculations about Adam and Original Sin. I also think it is important to check out own “state” in relationship to our Creator

Sometimes, we forget that Original Sin was a one-time original event and a one-time original opportunity. If Adam had freely chosen to obey his Creator, then we would inherit his state of original holiness (aka sanctifying grace).(CCC, 404) This does not mean that we would remain sinless. We would still have to personally obey God and follow the moral norms which govern the use of freedom. (CCC, 396; CCC, 1730-1734)
Where Christians often disagree is the state of human nature. Catholicism teaches that our human nature was not totally corrupted; rather our human nature is wounded in the natural powers proper to it. Being inclined to evil summons us to spiritual battle. (CCC, 405) This is why Jesus Christ instituted the Seven Sacraments so that we would have the graces to overcome temptations. Not only that, Jesus Christ gives Himself to us in the Holy Eucharist.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
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I will try to ask this question/s, and hope they makes sense…

Why do we blame Adam for the O.S, if we would have always needed to remain sinless ourselves?

If Adam had made the right choice, we would have been born with O.H and free of all unholy desires etc, but still would need to stay in union and obedience to God, which would have been easier to do as none of us would have been fallen?

So we don’t need Adam to be the fallen one if we would become fallen ourselves by rejecting God?
:confused:
 
ezeekl said:
Fallen state = loss of grace
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The fallen state of man is one that can only be redeemed by God, Since we inherited Adams original sin of pride, and its effects,the sin has to be removed The sin is removed by Baptism, but the effects remain. When we are Baptized, we accept Jesus as our Savior, we become by spiritual adoptions a child, or son of God by the work of the Holy Spirit. We are now is the sanctify grace that Adam lost. The effects of original sin have caused us to have a leaning or propensity to follow the dictates of our feelings and passions that conflict with our reason. eg. Sexual pleasure was created to lead into propagation of children. But the feeling for pleasure cause us to go against our reason or conscience that tell us, now is not the time, you must provide, you need a husband who will commit with you to raise the children, etc. etc. So the means to an end (pleasure and sex) is not used to produce children, and care for them. it is just used to have sexual pleasure. The means has become an end in itself. When this happens we are going against our intelligent nature, and to do that we also go against the will of God “Thou shalt not commit adultery” This effect is called concupiscence.

Another effect is ignorance. When Adam lost contact with God, he lost contact with the Truth. He was left to his own limited mind, and fallibility, without the truth of God, man is ignorant. Another effect of Original sin is weakness of will. That happens when you know you are doing the wrong thing but you don’t have the will power to resist. eg. when a guy tempts you to have sexual pleasure, you find your self too weak to resist. The effects are not sins themselves, but make us lean toward sin This is the state all humans find themselves. It is the cause of so much human misery, and the sin and its effects make us vulnerable to the power of Satan, Once we a Baptized Satan’s grip on us is broken, but we still have to be purified of its effects, this is done by using all means to remain in the sanctifying state of grace, made available through the Sacraments of the Church
 
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