Original sin:

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It is not inherited from Adam and Eve like how we inherit the DNA.

Before the fall Adam and Eve did not have this problem. They were innocent, so to speak. It was when they committed the sin that their eyes were ‘opened’. They knew they were naked, et al. Later we see that a brother killed (his brother). There is a distinction between before and after the fall; and this we cannot lump together as the same.

The original sin as been explained came with the fall. It affects us all until today. The spiritual aspect of it is the sin of disobedience to God that results in the fall. We cannot deny this sin since we all have it unlike when Adam and Eve were first created - a point we don’t agree with those who think that we do not have the original sin.

Probably if we really dissect this like a lawyer where we have to answer a ‘yes’ or ‘no’, some of the arguments probably do not make sense. But sometimes in spirituality one cannot approach it that way.
Here’s the problem:

There was a reason that Adam and Eve chose to do what they did. According to the doctrine of original sin as it has been explained by some here, what they did resulted in OUR being born with that taint–described as a tendency to want to make bad choices.

But…they made a bad choice, because they had free will and used it. Why did they make that choice? Why isn’t the reason they made their choice the same reason we make ours? If it is, then how can we blame them for OUR tendency to sin? If it isn’t, then why isn’t the reason they made the choice sufficient reason for OUR choices?
 
If you think in terms of being heirs.We are heirs of Christ, who restored to us what Adam and Eve lost. What they lost was being in the immediate presence of God. If they had not sinned humanity would not have been removed from God’s presence. So in that sense, we were all “punished” but it is not a punishment because of something we did, it is something that happened. Something that we could not fix on our own. That fix was made by God, who restored us to Him.

Original sin is the same thing. It is not something we did, it is something we inherited. Or, more correctly, it is lacking in something that was lost. Because of Jesus Christ we are restored, reborn through baptism.

As to the difference between us and our First Parents…Do you walk and talk with God as Adam and Eve did, in the Garden?

We walk with God by faith, not by sight.

There is the difference.
 
Here’s the problem:

There was a reason that Adam and Eve chose to do what they did. According to the doctrine of original sin as it has been explained by some here, what they did resulted in OUR being born with that taint–described as a tendency to want to make bad choices.

But…they made a bad choice, because they had free will and used it. Why did they make that choice? Why isn’t the reason they made their choice the same reason we make ours? If it is, then how can we blame them for OUR tendency to sin? If it isn’t, then why isn’t the reason they made the choice sufficient reason for OUR choices?
No problem there actually. 🙂

Perhaps it is because what you think we think the original sin is.

They (Adam & Eve) made the choice which you can say is their propensity to sin - is not the effect of original sin since there was none at that point in time. It is their free will even if that free will led them to sin. I tried to tell you that the situation of Adam’s mind before and after the fall was not the same. We don’t know what Adam would have done had it not for the fall. One thing he did was disobey (by eating the fruit) but we do not know what else he could have done.

On the other hand, it was a different Adam after the fall, as I had explained. Our original sin is the inheritance of what happen after the fall.

If you say, before the fall Adam also sinned, so what’s the difference? Well, you do have a point there. But we are not talking about before the fall; but after it. One thing for sure, Adam’s mind was not the same as it was before the fall.

I hope you can see the distinction there.

You cannot apply lawyer’s way of questioning here:

Lawyer: You sinned before the fall, didn’t you?

Lawyer: You sinned after the fall, didn’t you?

Lawyer: During both, you used your free will, didn’t you?

Though the answer to all will be yes, I maintain the premise was different. Before the fall is not the same as after the fall.
 
A few Scriptures on original sin for my Orthodox and seperated brethren;

When born of humanity, man contracts original sin without consent, that is why God can remove original sin without personal consent, as he does with newborn babies at baptism.

Actual sin can only be committed through informed consent, and so it can only be removed through informed consent, that is why we need auricular confession by a priest.

God infuses his divine image back into the baptized soul, only at the cost of his divine son’s death which paid the penalty of our original and actual sins, who reconciled us back to God.
Romans 5:8
But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.
9
How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.
10
Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.
11
Not only that, but we also boast of God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12
4 **Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned 5 – **13
for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.
14
**But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.
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But the gift is not like the transgression. For if by that one person’s transgression the many died, how much more did the grace of God and the gracious gift of the one person Jesus Christ overflow for the many. **16
And the gift is not like the result of the one person’s sinning. For after one sin there was the judgment that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal.
17
**For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ. **18
In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all.
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For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous.
20
The law entered in 6 so that transgression might increase but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more,

Job14: 1-17
Psalms 51:2-9

1 Corinthians 15;21
9 **For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.
22
**For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, **23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ;
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then comes the end, 10 when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.
25
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26
11 The last enemy to be destroyed is death, **

Romans 3: 21-24

Ephesians 2: 3-6

2 Peter 2: 4
2 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment;
5
4 and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, together with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the godless world;
6
and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (to destruction), reducing them to ashes, making them an example for the godless (people) of what is coming;
7
and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man oppressed by the licentious conduct of unprincipled people
8
(for day after day that righteous man living among them was tormented in his righteous soul at the lawless deeds that he saw and heard),
9
then the Lord knows how to rescue the devout from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10
5 and especially those who follow the flesh with its depraved desire and show contempt for lordship. 6 Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to revile glorious beings,
11
7 whereas angels, despite their superior strength and power, do not bring a reviling judgment against them from the Lord.
12
But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed,
13
suffering wrong 8 as payment for wrongdoing. Thinking daytime revelry a delight, they are stains and defilements as they revel in their deceits while carousing with you.
14
Their eyes are full of adultery and insatiable for sin. They seduce unstable people, and their hearts are trained in greed. Accursed children!

Peace be with you:)
 
Here’s the problem:

There was a reason that Adam and Eve chose to do what they did. According to the doctrine of original sin as it has been explained by some here, what they did resulted in OUR being born with that taint–described as a tendency to want to make bad choices.

But…they made a bad choice, because they had free will and used it. Why did they make that choice? Why isn’t the reason they made their choice the same reason we make ours? If it is, then how can we blame them for OUR tendency to sin? If it isn’t, then why isn’t the reason they made the choice sufficient reason for OUR choices?
Answer; Concupiscence
 
I see original sin in some ways as indeed a propensity to sin, but we have Christ…there are spiritual readings that say we are conceived out of concupiscence…but then that some how implies that our marital union was not holy…which sacrament of Christ sanctifies…
 
I see original sin in some ways as indeed a propensity to sin, but we have Christ…there are spiritual readings that say we are conceived out of concupiscence…but then that some how implies that our marital union was not holy…which sacrament of Christ sanctifies…
Sometimes it is not realized the mysticism that entails the proclamation from the Catholic Church during Easter of the “Oh happy fault” from Adam. Without this humanity would of never experienced the Mercy and Grace from God for our humanity.

Now that Jesus Christ has conquered death, those of the Kingdom of God only have to deal with the temptation of sin resulting from the concupiscence of orignial sin. This places humanity right back on an even par with the first Adam to either chose Life (Jesus Christ) or death (self).

Peace be with you
 
Thanks, Gabriel…

What I am also considering is that a priest said when we are in spiritual battle with the devil, his power is greater than ours and we will surely fail. Of course, we have the necessary means – the grace of Christ Himself – to overcome.

But back to Adam and Eve…God created them human and the angels are more powerful than them…so when they were tempted by the Evil One, they failed. So Christ is the counterpoint and renewal, the source of being born again.

I mean to say that Christ always was in God, that Christ was the means the Heavenly Father used to create ‘creation’. And it looks like, God being all knowing, had to know the inherent weakness of the first parents…and had the remedy Jesus as well present…but to be brought forth only in God’s time.

I mean to say, because we are weak, even at the beginning of man, there also was Christ to redeem us if our human origins failed us.

Thus for us believers, Christ takes the onus out of Original Sin…but then John Paul II spoke of those, no matter the good surrounding them…there is bad soil. You see good coming out of bad parents. My grandfather left an unhappy home and never told us about them. After he passed away, and many years later, did my brother find out his father went to prison. My grandfather was known to be so kind and gentle, never cursing or saying mean things. He became a convert and would dress up in a suit to go to Mass every Sunday, even when he was failing…a very devout believer.

Then you see good families who do their best and they have those who come out who do not do good and reject grace.
 
I see original sin in some ways as indeed a propensity to sin, but we have Christ…there are spiritual readings that say we are conceived out of concupiscence…but then that some how implies that our marital union was not holy…which sacrament of Christ sanctifies…
Kathleen, you have identified some of my questions…and by the way, thank you, everybody, for taking this topic seriously…because I am! These are very real questions I have, and this is probably the first time I’ve been comfortable asking them…in the hope that they won’t be taken as ‘trolls.’

Because they aren’t.

Diana
 
What makes everyone think God created Free Will?

The theory goes God created Free Will in hopes the better thinking would prevail and we would all choose him?

Thats not what happened in the Garden which satan so managed to enter. BTW if he could enter Gods Garden why in the world would you think he couldn’t enter Gods church?

Adam and Eve had no free will I contend. There choice was God and God only. God Commanded them to not eat of a specific Tree, There was no Sin to this point, no shame or guilt or negative human emotions either. Just BLISS

Satan deceives them and claims God has lied and they will not die. So they had eterenal life till this point, given by God. Because they didn’t die immediatly is beside the point, and God doesn’t lie. Satan claims they will be “like” Gods and know Good and Evil, and he is right about the Good and Evil part.

They eat the Fruit, they “sin” because they immedialty disobeyed God with this act of defiance. Bought on themselfs immediatly is shame and all other human emotions including Pain, and mans Ego.

Later on God arrives to tell them from dust they came and to dust they will return. So God confirms what he spoke “that you will surely die”.

So the LORD, God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

So they knew no pain nor negative feelings of shame and guilt nor sin till satan arrives.
NOR FREE WILL.

Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

Whys the ground cursed? …Because they disobeyed God and sinned.

until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

And satan said surely you won’t die? Surely he was wrong as we see in Gods last statement.

What does God do next? Now he can’t allow man in the flesh to live forever.

So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which they had been taken outside of the Garden, no more allowed by the Trees. NO more mistakes with the Fruit.

To the next generation God speaks and states…

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Now I could be wrong but we as we live today with Free Will, is NOT how God intended this to be. Free Will was brought about by satan. In order to win and deceive souls. Your Free will is only Heaven or Hell. But Gods plan in the begining was Heaven only.

I contend that satan threw the wrench in the engine. Im open for debates??? Pretty thin eh?
 
,Now I could be wrong but we as we live today with Free Will, is NOT how God intended this to be. Free Will was brought about by satan. In order to win and deceive souls. Your Free will is only Heaven or Hell. But Gods plan in the begining was Heaven only.

I contend that satan threw the wrench in the engine. Im open for debates??? Pretty thin eh?
I have to admit…that’s a theory. The question, of course, is this: if Adam and Eve did not have free will before Satan got there, then how is it that his temptations got through to them? Either they were free to fall into temptation, or they weren’t–and if they weren’t, then nothing Satan did should have worked, right?

Interesting idea, though!
 
… BTW if he could enter Gods Garden why in the world would you think he couldn’t enter Gods church?

Adam and Eve had no free will I contend. There choice was God and God only. God Commanded them to not eat of a specific Tree, There was no Sin to this point, no shame or guilt or negative human emotions either. Just BLISS

Satan deceives them and claims God has lied and they will not die. So they had eterenal life till this point, given by God. Because they didn’t die immediatly is beside the point, and God doesn’t lie. Satan claims they will be “like” Gods and know Good and Evil, and he is right about the Good and Evil part…

They eat the Fruit, they “sin” because they immedialty disobeyed God with this act of defiance. Bought on themselfs immediatly is shame and all other human emotions including Pain, and mans Ego…
Not so much as debate, but as a commentary:

Taken together, the story of The Light Bearer and the “Fall” from Eden are allegories of Mankind’s ascent in perception to the plane of reflexive awareness. In other words, The Garden was that state of natural co-existence as animals enjoy due to their instinctive, choiceless nature which has with it the commensurate non-identification with such emotions as we now call “human.”

As awareness dawned for the race, it did so in the form of subject/object awareness, or the ability to differentiate between self, others, and nature. That includes the ability to look at one’s self as object. (No wonder it says from ancient days “Know Thyself.”) It was a step up from animal narcissism with the potential to progress through stages of human narcissism into actual spiritual maturity through hard work and self knowledge. That is so because we are made in the Image and Likeness of God. So we potentially have nine stages of psycho-spiritual maturity, of which most get stuck in at about stage four and live happy, or not, lives.

At each stage we incorporate and transcend the stage before, re-identify and move on, if we persist. Eventually, if we are supremely fortunate, we transcend our separatist narcissism in wider and wider circles and realize and internalize, that as the Great Commandment and the four forms of the Golden Rule imply, the “other” is in fact our own Self in essence, as each is made in that Same Image and Likeness. This is where morality is “above the law,” for who would in maturity harm themselves or do other than promote their own good?

An amusing aside to this is that women went first, lol! They had to tempt men into awareness. It is well said that the battle for civilization has been the battle against testosterone and narcissism. No wonder the Church is patristic; we have to control those wildly innovative women!!! 🙂

The Lucifer peice has to do with symbolizing the struggle that Soul faces as it contends with the divisive nature of the subject/object awareness that has to be transcended in order to experience the states of perception and Knowledge available to humans beyond the ordinary daily navigational functions of the mind. Few go there, fewer still stay there and incorporate that state with the ordinary state. St. Aquinas did in his last days, as did Sts. Teresa of Avila and Catherine of Sienna, St. John of the Cross, St. Francis of Assisi, Meister Eckhart, and a few others. There are many others in other traditions, but the nature of our faith prevents us, mostly, from hearing about them. The Lucifer faculty is the ability to be with God, fallen by the persistent and daily decision to live in subject/object awareness even in prayer and devotion. That is “original sin,” because it it the fundamental error of not moving to more comprehensive states of perception available to us as humans. And in that direction lies an actual and useful comprehension of the meaning of Salvation.
 
Not so much as debate, but as a commentary:

Taken together, the story of The Light Bearer and the “Fall” from Eden are allegories of Mankind’s ascent in perception to the plane of reflexive awareness. In other words, The Garden was that state of natural co-existence as animals enjoy due to their instinctive, choiceless nature which has with it the commensurate non-identification with such emotions as we now call “human.”

As awareness dawned for the race, it did so in the form of subject/object awareness, or the ability to differentiate between self, others, and nature. That includes the ability to look at one’s self as object. (No wonder it says from ancient days “Know Thyself.”) It was a step up from animal narcissism with the potential to progress through stages of human narcissism into actual spiritual maturity through hard work and self knowledge. That is so because we are made in the Image and Likeness of God. So we potentially have nine stages of psycho-spiritual maturity, of which most get stuck in at about stage four and live happy, or not, lives.

At each stage we incorporate and transcend the stage before, re-identify and move on, if we persist. Eventually, if we are supremely fortunate, we transcend our separatist narcissism in wider and wider circles and realize and internalize, that as the Great Commandment and the four forms of the Golden Rule imply, the “other” is in fact our own Self in essence, as each is made in that Same Image and Likeness. This is where morality is “above the law,” for who would in maturity harm themselves or do other than promote their own good?

An amusing aside to this is that women went first, lol! They had to tempt men into awareness. It is well said that the battle for civilization has been the battle against testosterone and narcissism. No wonder the Church is patristic; we have to control those wildly innovative women!!! 🙂

The Lucifer peice has to do with symbolizing the struggle that Soul faces as it contends with the divisive nature of the subject/object awareness that has to be transcended in order to experience the states of perception and Knowledge available to humans beyond the ordinary daily navigational functions of the mind. Few go there, fewer still stay there and incorporate that state with the ordinary state. St. Aquinas did in his last days, as did Sts. Teresa of Avila and Catherine of Sienna, St. John of the Cross, St. Francis of Assisi, Meister Eckhart, and a few others. There are many others in other traditions, but the nature of our faith prevents us, mostly, from hearing about them. The Lucifer faculty is the ability to be with God, fallen by the persistent and daily decision to live in subject/object awareness even in prayer and devotion. That is “original sin,” because it it the fundamental error of not moving to more comprehensive states of perception available to us as humans. And in that direction lies an actual and useful comprehension of the meaning of Salvation.
Facinating piece of writting my brother:thumbsup: At all points we remain within the battle always. Though by begining to defeat “self”, we can then begin to think clearly and see truth. That self-awarness certainly became introduced by satan.

Passing thoughts, passing throughts.
 
What makes everyone think God created Free Will?

Genesis 1:26
4 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground."
27
**God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them. **

Genesis 2:1
16
The LORD God gave man this order: **“You are free **to eat from any of the trees of the garden
17
**except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.” **

God created both angels and man with freewill. Lucifer charged his freewill in rebellion to God. The freewill of a spirit (angel) is created in perfection, so once an angel decides from his freewill the decision remains eternal, this comes with having a perfect will. Man created in the image and likeness of God is given dominion over the earth and what they contain to excercise his/her freewill or decision making for the greater good from what God created and saw that it was good.

Adam and Eve excercised their freewill to disobey God. God did not create them as robots, God created them male and female so that they can Love each other and God from their own freewill.

The free “will” of man comes from his spirit = intellect, memory, senses.

Truth then cannot be sensed: and the mind cannot know pleasures, it can only know what is true and false. The Will knows good and evil by desiring it; but it is the intellect which knows it properly speaking by understanding it. Hence the senses do not know what is true or false, good or evil; they feel only what is painful and pleasurable.

Intellect; is comprised of what might be commonly called thought, reason and imagination. It relies and operates from the (name removed by moderator)ut of the senses and passions. The intellect works in concert with the will to arrive at morally correct decisions and actions.

Memory; it is the storage unit for the passions and intellect.

Will; to select the proper object of attention at any given moment.

If God did not create “freewill” then what can you describe that which caused the fall of Lucifer and the first Adam?

Peace be with you
 
I have to admit…that’s a theory. The question, of course, is this: if Adam and Eve did not have free will before Satan got there, then how is it that his temptations got through to them? Either they were free to fall into temptation, or they weren’t–and if they weren’t, then nothing Satan did should have worked, right?

Interesting idea, though!
Great thinking D, I’m thinking on the feeling level.

I’m trying to place myself in their shoes “Adam and Eve” Before Satan arrives what was the Free Will? You know what I"m saying? If in fact Free Will is to chose Good or Evil ultimately. Then before satan arrives I don’t see the choice of Good or Evil. Unless we view the actual Fruit and commandment not to eat it as that choice. So lets for a second.

Then we also have to look at the emotional state of being of both Adam and Eve.

If the fruit would have had a negative consideration [which it did]. They couldn’t have known it at this point. God said your will surely die. They wouldn’t have known fear, anxiety, uncertainty. That had to came after the serpent.

OK so what did they have for feeling? Only positive with no negative? They didn’t know shame, insecurity, or self.

So wthout satan what have been the feeling that would have drove Adam and Eve? It had to be a positive feeling. And how one has positve but not negative feelings truly is a work of God.

In the case man or woman might have chose that Fruit without satans temptation? They then would had to have done so already knowing what God said. “It will KIll you”. So without the instilled confidence and promise from the serpent and his words. Would in fact the fruit have been eaten? I don’t think so, knowing they didn’t have the negative emotions until after the fruit was eaten. They coudn’t have had the positve emotions either. I don’t think? But they then must have had positive emotions, of excitment, joy, beauty, etc. And these are what they did act of? I’m assumimng here, but its the best I can come up without saying GOD only knows.

In other words there had have been something there. Even though we know of the grave consequence by God, shame, insecurity, which came after the fruit was eaten,etc. There had to heve been emotions there already no?

Was the feeling of pain there? If so not much. because God certainly became grafic and adament about child birth?

I’m probly reading to much into this from my own clinical mind.

Passing thoughts,

Like so much in the Bible, theres so little said and so much to infer from it?

Today its easy to say what is, is. But at last we have great minds our here today and much information. And these are the questions that scream for attention, and those unassuming, humble great minds ask. And they do expect educated answers.

God Bless, GT
 
What makes everyone think God created Free Will?

The theory goes God created Free Will in hopes the better thinking would prevail and we would all choose him?

Thats not what happened in the Garden which satan so managed to enter. BTW if he could enter Gods Garden why in the world would you think he couldn’t enter Gods church?

Adam and Eve had no free will I contend. There choice was God and God only. God Commanded them to not eat of a specific Tree, There was no Sin to this point, no shame or guilt or negative human emotions either. Just BLISS

Satan deceives them and claims God has lied and they will not die. So they had eterenal life till this point, given by God. Because they didn’t die immediatly is beside the point, and God doesn’t lie. Satan claims they will be “like” Gods and know Good and Evil, and he is right about the Good and Evil part.

They eat the Fruit, they “sin” because they immedialty disobeyed God with this act of defiance. Bought on themselfs immediatly is shame and all other human emotions including Pain, and mans Ego.

Later on God arrives to tell them from dust they came and to dust they will return. So God confirms what he spoke “that you will surely die”.

So the LORD, God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

So they knew no pain nor negative feelings of shame and guilt nor sin till satan arrives.
NOR FREE WILL.

Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

Whys the ground cursed? …Because they disobeyed God and sinned.

until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

And satan said surely you won’t die? Surely he was wrong as we see in Gods last statement.

What does God do next? Now he can’t allow man in the flesh to live forever.

So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which they had been taken outside of the Garden, no more allowed by the Trees. NO more mistakes with the Fruit.

To the next generation God speaks and states…

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Now I could be wrong but we as we live today with Free Will, is NOT how God intended this to be. Free Will was brought about by satan. In order to win and deceive souls. Your Free will is only Heaven or Hell. But Gods plan in the begining was Heaven only.

I contend that satan threw the wrench in the engine. Im open for debates??? Pretty thin eh?
God is who makes us believe that he created free will. Think about it, if Man did not have free will to sin or not to sin how could sin be possible. You would have to say that God causes man to either sin, or not to sin, and that would be crazy.

Adam and Eve did not have to sin, they chose to sin. Why? Because they wanted to become more powerful then God. The devil tempted them, just like he can temp us. Simple with our own private desires. But we have to learn to either trust God or Trust ourself. More people trust this world then God.

Think about it, how many people could live knowing they may have not food, no home, no money in the bank.

But then how many people learn to live that way because they have to. Then when they learn who God is, and how to truly trust him, those things mean nothing any longer.

Why? Simple, you can lose them in a second. BUt you can never lose God if you choose him. That is another form of Free Will. God never pushes himself on anyone.
 
The intellect (thinking) is not the same as passions or senses (feelings). Our senses can decieve us. Truth can only be ascertained by the Will and the intellect. The first commandment states this; to Love God with all our heart (will), mind and strength (spirit), never our feelings. The memory recalls from our will and intellect what our passions and senses gave them. The will and intellect cannot feel, these can only discern what is Truth. The feelings can never judge what is Truth.
For example Lucifers fall wasn’t thinking, it was feeling. Had he seperated his feelings from his thinking, he may not have acted of his feelings? Regardless we are where we are at.
A spirit does not posses a body to sense or feel. An angel is Spirit who God created with a perfect will and intellect. Lucifer’s own perfect will is what rebelled against God, because Truth is determined by the will and intellect never ones feelings which can deceive.

We are where we are because of Jesus Christ and the promise of God from Gen. 3:15 after the fall. Had God not made the promise, God would of allowed the flood to swallow up Noah and his family along with the rest of the world.
You say God did not create them ar robots, but to Love, love is a feeling. So what I:m saying is could it be possible that wonderful and positive feelings may exist without negative? Apparently so, since shame, guilt, insecurity and to a degree pain didn’t exist before the serpent? And God then arrived to speak to Adam and Eve.
God Is Love. The good (joy) feelings that result from Love is what scripture calls “gifts of the Holy Spirit”. God revealed to Adam before the fall what will result should he disobey God to eat of the forbidden fruit. True Adam did not know guilt, shame all the negative feelings until Adam ate of the forbidden fruit. These came as a result of original sin “to die the death” as God revealed this Adam. Now because of original sin, our humanity can be subject (concupiscence) to sin.

Peace be with you
 
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