I would disagree with this assessment. There is no goodness without the ability to choose otherwise. Adam and Eve were created in the state of original innocence. The fact that they chose to disobey God is proof that that had free will. God did not create Adam and Eve as robots. When they chose evil everything changed for all of humanity and even creation itself. The effects of that sin weakened our will, darkened our intellect and left us with a tendency toward sin (concupiscence).
But here is something you may be forgetting. God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. Now they knew that they were wrong to do it. How do we know? Simple. They went and hid from God. Now as I said earlier it was not their sin that was so bad, it was their unwillingness to admit the sin. What did they do after they sinned? They went and hid from God.
Kind of puts things in a perspective for us too don’t you think SteveH. You would think we would learn the first time around.
Neither am I. While what we perceive as free will is a condition of the subject/object mode, necessary as it is a state of dualism, the choices we make with that free will are very determinate by dint of training and experience, especially to the extent that those are unexamined and left operating at levels covered over by further growth. Witness your own reliance of quotes as distinct from an integrity derived from self observation that leads to Universals regarding self awareness and therefore morality. That doesn’t mean God isn’t. I means that what God IS is obscured by faith paradigms of any sort. In other words, as a subject/'object thinker, you are yet “in the flesh,” as you quote.
Yes, but you misunderstand Paul. He was speaking of one mature in Spirit, Self aware of actual relationship with God, not with dogmatism and book learning. As for “judgement” it is not, again, what is ordinarily understood by the lay mind.
There is nothing to forgive. You have a perfectly wonderful and excellently functioning intellect. You simply lack certain kinds of experience which may or may not come to you, and which you are blameless about in any case. God is LOVE, and not about intellect and “proofs.” Give yourself a break, Angel. The “curse,” is as is any crisis, but an opportunity. YOu will make of it what you will and experience the consequences, as do we all. What could be more perfect? How else would we learn?
Amen
We tend toward sin because of the sin of our first parents. Nevertheless, we still do the choosing and continue to separate ourselves from God when we choose sin. I long for the day when our only desire is to serve and worship God, in other words, to do what He created us to do.Kind of puts things in a perspective for us too don’t you think SteveH. You would think we would learn the first time around.
But we don’t. We still seem to choose sin at times over God weaken ourself with God, and what happens when we separate ourself from him. Same thing as Adam and Eve we continue to darken our intellect once again. Will we ever learn
Tuno, I was just curious. You state that you are “not atheist” and “not theist” and “not agnostic”. I don’t understand how this is possible. This is nothing personal, it is just confusing to me. Can you tell me where you stand?
Love your signature quote: “Let the time come when those who should oblige the servant of God, do the contrary to him, and what degree of patience and humility he has then, that is the degree he has and no more.” - St. Francis of Assisi
Love is a verb.
Tuno,Love your signature quote: “Let the time come when those who should oblige the servant of God, do the contrary to him, and what degree of patience and humility he has then, that is the degree he has and no more.” - St. Francis of Assisi
I’m curious how you read that. St. Francis, along with five other Catholic greats, are some of my favorite poets, especially as anthologized in Love Poems from God edited by David Ladinsky.
As for my “position,” due to a profound mystical experience in my 17th year and the subsequent years of incorporation and re-idientification which resulted in an association with a profound Mentor, it might go by any number of “labels,” almost all misleading and inadequate. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia has it wrong, imho. You might say, though, that I am a proponent of non dualism, or the Perennial Philosophy, or Advaita, or the Path of Ultimate Responsibility, or the Absolute, or just Joy and its myriad names.
It is the only system of Understanding that has consistently arisen throughout history despite time, place, culture, or any other factor, even absence of communication between its proponents. It speaks to the root of religion and is before religion. And the Identity statements in both the OT and NT are congruent with it.
I hope that helps, or is at least entertaining
Have you ever read any of the Christian mystics? Mystical prayer has always fascinated me for the simple reason that it is completely beyond the intellect, requiring no thought. It is instead a divine embrace. As you might imagine it is difficult if not impossible to fully grasp for the simple reason that it is beyond the intellect and any attempt to describe it in human language can only diminish it.
This is easy. Original means first and sin, well let’s let John explain. 1Jn.3
The feeling is mutual. I am glad you are here. I feel that you made an exemplary exposition of the Quote for the beloved Saint. Had you been interested, I could give you few authors who would allow you to have at least some intellectual clarity on non dualism. It is not, by any means, either a popular nor an easily understood Way. The numbers of those alleged to have competence to approach it are remarkably small, though it is may feeling that it is at the actual core of Catholic teaching, but exceptionally well occluded. So that you have not heard of the various labels is no surprise. In fact, for the most part, the exemplars of this Way most usually decline to name themselves by any label, and rightfully so, despite that most of them have arrived at said Way independently and despite absence of intercommunication in most cases, have pretty much precisely the same take despite any conditions they live in circumstantially. So it tends to remain a mystery and that is well and good, as usually it becomes an unnecessary can of worms for the vast majority of people faced with its ideas. But those are secondary, as anything that can be said is for all practical purposes an indicator that one should look within the Souls as the Image and Likeness of God. Say that, I have already likely said too much. But in any case, if nothing else, it is a great Story!
What you say is not, imho, off topic simply for the fact that it is in fact the actual and only practical way from belief to overcoming the “stain” of original sin, though it can only be called that from a particular perspective.
Yes, and as you write, I see that we will not be on the same page as long as you persist in belief. That is fine; you are doing very well.
Yes, many educational devices are used by St Paul and others. Usually they are misunderstood until there is some form of mystical insight similar to his own. The best thing you might be able to do for yourself is to energetically pursue all your faith point to their end. You will do well, I have no doubt. Just be awake to your own processes around them.