Original sin:

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yes, and as you write, I see that we will not be on the same page as long as you persist in belief. That is fine; you are doing very well.

Greetings Tuno and welcome to the forums; “belief” or my faith is what brings me here to share with you my Catholic Faith not to neglect or reject my belief’s in Jesus Christ crucified.

I believe we are not connecting on the same page, because my faith (belief) is set on rock which cannot be moved. Your philosophical discoveries or “belief’s” is not something new to me. It may suffice you to know that Im not moved by every wind of doctrine that comes from man. That is not to say, I am not interested in what you have to share here regarding your “belief’s” or philosophies. I hope to remain on the OP’s topic of original sin here? If your philosophical ideology or belief’s grant such insights to this discussion? I may have misunderstood you here? but your proselytizing of your belief’s here outside of the subject matter and correction and instruction lends to much misunderstandings.

In other words, I must persist in my “belief’s” for these come from God, and they promise life today and eternally. I cannot neglect my belief’s in Him (Jesus) for a man made ideology of intellect and enlightenment that dies with the flesh. I do not think it is fair of you, to ask me to neglect my belief’s in order to understand your philosophical “belief’s”? see the irony here? Reveal your philosphoical “belief’s” and I will be happy to share with you the “Word of God” which enlightens not only the intellect but renews and saves the soul.

Yes, many educational devices are used by St Paul and others. Usually they are misunderstood until there is some form of mystical insight similar to his own. The best thing you might be able to do for yourself is to energetically pursue all your faith point to their end. You will do well, I have no doubt. Just be awake to your own processes around them.

I have no idea what you speak of here? “is to energetically pursue all your faith point to their end. You will do well, I have no doubt. Just be awake to your own processes around them”.

Question? Are you asking me to neglect my “belief’s” in order to understand this? My faith already points to the beginning and the end (alpha and omega) Jesus Christ truly present, body, blood soul and divinity. I as a Catholic have died to self by virtue of my baptism, it is I who no longer lives, but He (Jesus Christ) who lives in me.

Galatians 2: 19 that I might live for God. **I have been crucified with Christ; **20 **yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; insofar as I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who has loved me and given himself up for me. **

I pray no negativity be predicated here, only clarification. Up to now, I still do not know or understand your position on original sin or the “will” of our humanity?

Peace be with you

 

[wwolverine]

Serious question here:

What, exactly, IS it?

I feel its disobedience. God did tell Adam and Eve to do watever they liked as long as they do not eat a fruit from a certain tree.

They disobeyed. Well it could also be curiousity as they were curious as to what will happen if they ate.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I feel its disobedience. God did tell Adam and Eve to do watever they liked as long as they do not eat a fruit from a certain tree.

They disobeyed. Well it could also be curiousity as they were curious as to what will happen if they ate.

I would think it went something like this…The slick talking serpent attracted their attention, then tempted the two, Then curiosity escalated till they acted off there feelings. Temptation was the calling card and usually is with evil. For all that glitters isn’t always Gold. But their conscious was also active during this process and telling them…Don’t eat the fruit. But they had to be like God?

If the Garden of Eden was so cool? Why did one feel they needed more? It wasn’t enough to be happy, they had to be like God. Sounds like the Lucifer complex doesn’t it? Or does it sound the like the better part of people on earth?

Lot of greed, lot of temptation, proves but one thing, were a hell of a nation. No pun intended.

 

[dianaiad]

I would think it went something like this…The slick talking serpent attracted their attention, then tempted the two, Then curiosity escalated till they acted off there feelings. Temptation was the calling card and usually is with evil. For all that glitters isn’t always Gold. But their conscious was also active during this process and telling them…Don’t eat the fruit. But they had to be like God?

If the Garden of Eden was so cool? Why did one feel they needed more? It wasn’t enough to be happy, they had to be like God. Sounds like the Lucifer complex doesn’t it? Or does it sound the like the better part of people on earth?

Lot of greed, lot of temptation, proves but one thing, were a hell of a nation. No pun intended.

Thank you…

Everybody who has posted here so far has shown a degree of thought, and of knowledge, that is amazing to see, and I have enjoyed every post. I’m learning a lot!

I’d like to respond specifically to this post, though, as it illustrates one aspect of this topic that still eludes me.

It has been explained to me (not by anybody in HERE!) that “original sin” is the shared punishment for Adam and Eve’s choice in the garden. Because they sinned, WE are condemned to hell unless God chooses to rescue us from that fate. Our hellish fate, determined by the very fact of our birth, is their fault.

As I said, unless I missed something, nobody in here has said that.

It has also been explained to me that ‘original sin’ is that concupiscence…that propensity and desire to sin, that we inherit from our first parents because of their choices, a bit like an inheritable birth defect; Adam and Eve didn’t have this problem–then, by their choice to sin, developed it and passed it down to the rest of us. That seems to be more along the lines of what I am seeing in here.

OK…I can see that, and can even agree that human nature does like the ‘easy’ fix, or path, and that path is usually the indulgent, sinful one. However, that still raises the question, for me, of where we got that tendency. If our tendency to sin is the result of Adam and Eve’s choices, and is thus their fault, then what caused them to disobey? It seems to me that, while it is quite reasonable to claim that we inherited this problem from them, I get stuck with the problem of what happened to them.

There is a reason, after all, that they made the choices they did. If we blame our tendency to sin upon them, where do they go?

 

[Tuno]

I have no idea what you speak of here? “is to energetically pursue all your faith point to their end. You will do well, I have no doubt. Just be awake to your own processes around them”.

Question? Are you asking me to neglect my “belief’s” in order to understand this? My faith already points to the beginning and the end (alpha and omega) Jesus Christ truly present, body, blood soul and divinity. I as a Catholic have died to self by virtue of my baptism, it is I who no longer lives, but He (Jesus Christ) who lives in me.

Galatians 2: 19 that I might live for God. **I have been crucified with Christ; **20 **yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; insofar as I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who has loved me and given himself up for me. **

I pray no negativity be predicated here, only clarification. Up to now, I still do not know or understand your position on original sin or the “will” of our humanity?

Peace be with you

I absolutely do not wish you to give up your faith. I’m simply proposing that increasing your effort to live by it will show you something far more wonderful than what you now perceive. That might include an understanding of the post you question. God Blesses.

 

[Tuno]

Thank you…

As I said, unless I missed something, nobody in here has said that.

It has also been explained to me that ‘original sin’ is that concupiscence…that propensity and desire to sin, that we inherit from our first parents because of their choices, a bit like an inheritable birth defect; Adam and Eve didn’t have this problem–then, by their choice to sin, developed it and passed it down to the rest of us. That seems to be more along the lines of what I am seeing in here.

OK…I can see that, and can even agree that human nature does like the ‘easy’ fix, or path, and that path is usually the indulgent, sinful one. However, that still raises the question, for me, of where we got that tendency. If our tendency to sin is the result of Adam and Eve’s choices, and is thus their fault, then what caused them to disobey? It seems to me that, while it is quite reasonable to claim that we inherited this problem from them, I get stuck with the problem of what happened to them.

There is a reason, after all, that they made the choices they did. If we blame our tendency to sin upon them, where do they go?

Actually, I addressed this in post #51 above. While it is difficult to see it through the lens of faith, that being sometimes a hindrance if it is habitual in nature, there is another reading of the Eden story. Simply put it is that it is not about a literal “fall,” but that it is an allegory of the moment in which the actual human form of awareness dawned in our Race. It is only a “fall” in that the innocence of animal instinct is foregone for the kind of awareness that allows the sense of self we now have, along with the ability we have of seeing ourselves, with various degrees of maturity, as separate from first matter, then body, and finally mind. The last of these is the most difficult one, and most of humanity is still, one might say, at nominally stage four out of a possible nine. But this is why such things are spoken of allegorically: some are ready and can read through the story, while others are not yet ready. That is the significance, I think, of Mark 4:33,34. It is also why parables have at least three levels of meaning, as described in Maurice Nicoll’s The New Man; an interpretation of some parables and miracles of Christ. The same may apply for the entirety of the Bible.

 

[fhansen]

Serious question here:

What, exactly, IS it?

The original sin was disobedience of God-a disorder, an offense against nature, including our own natures-and a source of destruction and loss of integrity and happiness for humankind. Original sin in us is the continuation of that separation, that rejection of God and our turned-away-stance from Him, i.e.our preference for this state of affairs.

 

[Tuno]

…our preference for this state of affairs.

When in your life did you consciously choose to have this preference, and how did you exercise it?

 

[fhansen]

When in your life did you consciously choose to have this preference, and how did you exercise it?

I didn’t choose it to begin with-I was born without knowledge of God, let alone faith in Him, let alone love for Him. I prefer things that way by every way in which I may show contempt for goodness, love, truth. Every way in which I prefer my own agenda, my own righteousness, in spite of how that may conflict with truth, every time I choose a lesser good over a greater one for my own glory or benefit. Every way in which I demonstrate a lack of love-as simple as preferring the rush that comes from spreading gossip to the restraint that would seek to understand or show mercy to the one gossiped about. Every way in which I’m attached to worldly things-sometimes obsessively so. Faith in and love for God simply interferes with all this stuff.

 

[Tuno]

I didn’t choose it to begin with-I was born without knowledge of God, let alone faith in Him, let alone love for Him. I prefer things that way by every way in which I may show contempt for goodness, love, truth. Every way in which I prefer my own agenda, my own righteousness, in spite of how that may conflict with truth, every time I choose a lesser good over a greater one for my own glory or benefit. Every way in which I demonstrate a lack of love-as simple as preferring the rush that comes from spreading gossip to the restraint that would seek to understand or show mercy to the one gossiped about. Every way in which I’m attached to worldly things-sometimes obsessively so. Faith in and love for God simply interferes with all this stuff.

I’m really at odds as to what to say that might be useful here. For whatever reason, you are one of my favorite people on here, despite that we are clearly of different minds about many things. I have no doubt that you are a hard working, responsible, devoted and intelligent person. We might have even seen each other on the road around these parts, for all I know.

You have a highly personalized practice of religion, as many do. I have no argument with that, as I feel that it is a necessary position for many. I know that to be so even form my own experience. So I have no choice but to admire the virtue that has you staying your course. That, in itself, will bring you to whatever harbor of opportunity you choose, with its commensurate followings. This is a universal condition for all of us.

It will serve no use for me to repeat my case, its source, or the paradigm I necessarily had to accept as a result of my life experience. In integrity I could not do otherwise. I guess I have persisted with you precisely because of my admiration. But I do not see that unless a radical shift happens somewhere that we will be on the same page. I am not myself at this time or likely ever capable in any way of going back to Catholicism, whatever its attractions might be for someone else. But that does not mean that I cannot admire or praise someone who works within that framework, as I do you. I have a deal of experience in the kind of work it takes to be a Catholic. It is not easy. Just don’t be too hard on yourself. I get a sense of you being overly scrupulous, a trait my own confessor had me work to eradicate. And remember that no matter what the world deals you, you are totally and tenderly in the Arms of Love.

Blessings and Best,

A

 

[fhansen]

I’m really at odds as to what to say that might be useful here. For whatever reason, you are one of my favorite people on here, despite that we are clearly of different minds about many things. I have no doubt that you are a hard working, responsible, devoted and intelligent person. We might have even seen each other on the road around these parts, for all I know.

You have a highly personalized practice of religion, as many do. I have no argument with that, as I feel that it is a necessary position for many. I know that to be so even form my own experience. So I have no choice but to admire the virtue that has you staying your course. That, in itself, will bring you to whatever harbor of opportunity you choose, with its commensurate followings. This is a universal condition for all of us.

It will serve no use for me to repeat my case, its source, or the paradigm I necessarily had to accept as a result of my life experience. In integrity I could not do otherwise. I guess I have persisted with you precisely because of my admiration. But I do not see that unless a radical shift happens somewhere that we will be on the same page. I am not myself at this time or likely ever capable in any way of going back to Catholicism, whatever its attractions might be for someone else. But that does not mean that I cannot admire or praise someone who works within that framework, as I do you. I have a deal of experience in the kind of work it takes to be a Catholic. It is not easy. Just don’t be too hard on yourself. I get a sense of you being overly scrupulous, a trait my own confessor had me work to eradicate. And remember that no matter what the world deals you, you are totally and tenderly in the Arms of Love.

Blessings and Best,

A

I appreciate your sentiments and I know they’re sincere-as you are in all your beliefs. I admit to have fallen in love with a personal God-church teachings changed for me-from dead authoritative dogma to being sources of wisdom and life. But I’ll always be open to a superior way-I’d consider myself delinquent in my duty to search for truth if I wasn’t, but I doubt I’ll find anything greater than I’ve found so far. You may be right about the scrupulosity thing-or maybe I’m still not scrupulous enough! Anyway, I have met the God of unconditional Love-and literally felt enfolded in His Arms at one incredible point in my life. I hope we can all come to know such a Love as this.

 

[Tuno]

I appreciate your sentiments and I know they’re sincere-as you are in all your beliefs. I admit to have fallen in love with a personal God-church teachings changed for me-from dead authoritative dogma to being sources of wisdom and life. But I’ll always be open to a superior way-I’d consider myself delinquent in my duty to search for truth if I wasn’t, but I doubt I’ll find anything greater than I’ve found so far. You may be right about the scrupulosity thing-or maybe I’m still not scrupulous enough! Anyway, I have met the God of unconditional Love-and literally felt enfolded in His Arms at one incredible point in my life. I hope we can all come to know such a Love as this.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

It has been explained to me (not by anybody in HERE!) that “original sin” is the shared punishment for Adam and Eve’s choice in the garden.

If I might I would like to jump in here. This statement belays a misunderstanding of what sin is. Sin is NOT the punishment for sin. Punishment is the result of sin. and the punishment for sin ALL sin is death. Rom.6: 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Because they sinned, WE are condemned to hell

We are never condemned to hell for the actions of another.
Ez.18:19Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

unless God chooses to rescue us from that fate.

God has chosen to rescue us from our fate. Jn.3: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It has also been explained to me that ‘original sin’ is that concupiscence…that propensity and desire to sin, that we inherit from our first parents because of their choices, a bit like an inheritable birth defect;

Again sin is NOT a propensity or concupiscence. Sin is 1Jn3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. the transgression of the law.

Adam and Eve didn’t have this problem–then, by their choice to sin, developed it and passed it down to the rest of us. That seems to be more along the lines of what I am seeing in here.

You really need to look at what you are saying here In your statement above you seem to be saying that “original sin” is the propensity to sin, so in this last statement you would be saying by their propensity to sin they developed their propensity to sin. This doesn’t make sense. Adam and Eve CHOSE to sin and because of that choice to sin we inherit our fallen human nature or our propensity to sin. I see nothing in scripture that tells us that we inherit sin.

OK…I can see that, and can even agree that human nature does like the ‘easy’ fix, or path, and that path is usually the indulgent, sinful one. However, that still raises the question, for me, of where we got that tendency. If our tendency to sin is the result of Adam and Eve’s choices, and is thus their fault, then what caused them to disobey? It seems to me that, while it is quite reasonable to claim that we inherited this problem from them, I get stuck with the problem of what happened to them.

There is a reason, after all, that they made the choices they did. If we blame our tendency to sin upon them, where do they go?

Yes this is a question that has been dogging mankind for millenia. The only thing that I can say is look closely at the first fall.

Genesis 3
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Look at the exchange here In verse 4 we see the first lie ever told on this earth. In Gen 2:17 we see 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. God says if we eat we die, Satan says we won’t die. Which one is telling the truth?

In v. 6 it says that the woman saw that the tree was good for food. How do you suppose that she saw it was good for food. Well I believe the serpant was eating of the fruit of the tree and he wasn’t dead, or was he? In v. 7 it says their eyes were opened. What do you suppose that means? Well since it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of course they knew the difference between good and evil. You see God had made them perfect and saw absolutely no reason to explain to them what evil was, but once they disobeyed they knew. So, what it boils down to is they made a choice, the wrong choice, to disobey God. Now it is my belief that we do not inherit “original sin” what we do inherit is the propensity to sin or a fallen human nature. This is not how God created us, but He knew that this would be the case, so He made a provision for us to be with Him for all eternity and this provision is God’s plan of salvation and is explained to us in His word and manifest in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Well since it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of course they knew the difference between good and evil. You see God had made them perfect and saw absolutely no reason to explain to them what evil was”

You’ll have to explain to me how you arrive at this conclusion? I see this as an assumption. If God made them perfect and didn’t explain evil, how would they know what evil was? And then read again what the serpent stated.

5]And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
6]For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Good and Evil is never mentioned in the Bible till the serpent mentions it here. The serpent is the one introducing corruption thus evil to man. I agree he lied. But the state of mind of man is not know till this point.

Its an assumption also to assume that a conscious was part of mans being. For they had no feeling of guilt or shame until the fruit was eaten.

My assumption is these are pure souls in adam and eve till the fruit is eaten. Not different than the angels. They are only within a body of flesh and their attributes are different being of flesh. “Man became a LIVING SOUL” is Bible. What lacked is a total loyality to God. As we see with the Angels or Archangels. This was also the flaw in Lucifer. And part of the Free-Will

Yet when we study the fall of Lucifer from heaven, what was initially corrupted was his “thinking”. Initially what was corrupted with Adam and Eve was their thinking. The act came after the thought. They disobeyed God in their mind before it became a reality. Just as Lucifer did. And is mentioned in my last post in this thread.

Now, the free-will of Adam and Eve was not to choose Good and Evil. The free will before the serpent found his way in the garden was to do what they chose to do in the Garden. Without being told from moment to moment. Then they would be robots in the truest sense. They were to muliply and live in wonderful world.

When God said “You will surely die” Well what was he actually talking about? It wasn’t instant death, or they [Adam and Eve] would have died instantly. The death is the same death we are all confronted with today.

When God said, “Who told thee that thou was naked” God already knew what happened here. Then God said “hast thou eaten of the tree, that I commanded thou should not eat” Now God already knew the answer to this question also.

22 God said; Man is become as one of us, to know Good and Evil [so man did not know Good and Evil before he ate the fruit]. and now lest he put forth his hand , and take also of the tree of tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

So God now banished Adam and Eve from the Garden. Why? because God already told them “You shall surely die” So if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Life which they could have eaten till this point, then they would have what God already just told them they can no longer have “Eternal Life.”

So really only question unanswered that I see, is Adam and Eves state of being and mind before they ate the Fruit?

To conclude, they could have had eternal life and did, they did not know evil till they ate the fruit. So the only possible alternative that could have gone wrong is the same thing that went wrong with Lucifer, Corrupt thinking and disloyalty.

So how is it we are here today on this path we walk? Well how many times should God have these problems? What was the solution?

The solution is for man to be born into the reality that God created and Lucifer and Adam and Eve corrupted. Only now your not going anywhere around God, till you make your mind up exactly what you want to do. And all are given ample time to do this. You Blessings are multipiled as your faith is. The idea of Free-Will only expanded to the ultimate choice of Good or Evil. An the choices you make inbetween are those which ultimately bring you to eith Good or Evil.

 

[SteveVH]

The feeling is mutual. I am glad you are here. I feel that you made an exemplary exposition of the Quote for the beloved Saint. Had you been interested, I could give you few authors who would allow you to have at least some intellectual clarity on non dualism. It is not, by any means, either a popular nor an easily understood Way. The numbers of those alleged to have competence to approach it are remarkably small, though it is may feeling that it is at the actual core of Catholic teaching, but exceptionally well occluded. So that you have not heard of the various labels is no surprise. In fact, for the most part, the exemplars of this Way most usually decline to name themselves by any label, and rightfully so, despite that most of them have arrived at said Way independently and despite absence of intercommunication in most cases, have pretty much precisely the same take despite any conditions they live in circumstantially. So it tends to remain a mystery and that is well and good, as usually it becomes an unnecessary can of worms for the vast majority of people faced with its ideas. But those are secondary, as anything that can be said is for all practical purposes an indicator that one should look within the Souls as the Image and Likeness of God. Say that, I have already likely said too much. But in any case, if nothing else, it is a great Story!

What you say is not, imho, off topic simply for the fact that it is in fact the actual and only practical way from belief to overcoming the “stain” of original sin, though it can only be called that from a particular perspective.

Yes, I have read the Christian mysitcs, as well as some others. the bring me over and over from laughter of recognition to tears and back again. Six of my favorites are anthologized in David Ladinski’s Love Poems From God. A friend of mine actually made a theatrical production from those, and included the Words of our mutually beloved Mentor.

Out Mentor was absolutely in love with St. Francis. He actually had a vision of him at the beginning of his speaking career, which began when he was over 50. At one point he visited Assisi. Upon seeing him, Brother Michael, I think it was, one of the caretakers there, grabbed his hand and would not let go until he left the shrine and church, gifting him with a rose as he departed. Our Mentor was conducted this way through every nook and cranny, and was shown things relative to St. Francis that few see. I will never forget his recounting of that visit.

He often told us that we must go beyond our mind and its shenanigans, that we must learn to ride it like a horse. Few had any clue what he meant by “beyond the mind.” It sounds as though you might be one of the rarities who might. He loved the symbol of the Winged Victory, saying that “To fly, you must have no head” and then that “the head and the heart must dance together.” He was an exceptionally practical man, astonishingly deep, and I have no doubt would have loved to meet you. But he has passed some six years ago. I miss him terribly, and have had the exceptional fortune to find a few living individuals of his Stream who are also remarkable individuals. God is Good, my friend. We are never and always alone. Such is the mystery of Life, such is the Divine Embrace, and that is why the Silence is never broken by one who speaks as Love.

Blessings and Best,

A

Tuno, please accept my apology for my late response. I have been distracted by some other threads and life in general. I find your words extremely interesting. God draws us to himself in many and varied ways. In my faith tradition, we believe that all truth is ultimately contained and revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ. This truth is found most profoundly in a relationship with that Person. The intellect takes a back seat from this perspective, however it certainly does not and should not conflict with human reason. Simply put, truth cannot conflict with truth.

One my favorite saints is Joseph of Cupertino. This man would be labeled "mentally challenged’ in today’s parlance. His mother was so concerned that he would not be able to care for himself that she asked the Franciscan monks if they would take him in. They gave him the job of cleaning their stables and tending their sheep. He was thrilled to do this. While selling apples out of cart to raise money for the monastery, he came upon a young woman who had been stripped, raped and beaten. Feeling pity for her he took off his robe and covered her and then brought her to a doctor. In the mean time, his cart and the donkey pulling it had been stolen. He returned to the monastery naked, without the cart, the donkey, the apples and the money. The monks chastised him and wondered if he could to anything correctly.

To make a long story short, they found him in the barn one evening, levitating. Believing he was possessed they tied him down and tried to perform an exorcism. This event kept reoccurring until finally they were convinced that this was of God and not the enemy.

My point is that this was a man with almost no intellectual ability, yet he grasped the truth of the gospel better than the monks who had taken him in. That truth was nothing more than authentic love.

God bless you Tuno.

 

[grannymh]

Serious question here:

What, exactly, IS it?

The Catholic Church has an unique understanding of Original Sin. Therefore it is best to begin with the creation of Adam as father of humanity.

Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam and Original Sin is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and its number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Entering topics, like Adam, is also very useful.

When you enter a paragraph number, like “paragraph 355”, and then click on the opening line, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 you will see the following under the paragraph:

»
»
»
»

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[rinnie]

Thank you…

Everybody who has posted here so far has shown a degree of thought, and of knowledge, that is amazing to see, and I have enjoyed every post. I’m learning a lot!

I’d like to respond specifically to this post, though, as it illustrates one aspect of this topic that still eludes me.

It has been explained to me (not by anybody in HERE!) that “original sin” is the shared punishment for Adam and Eve’s choice in the garden. Because they sinned, WE are condemned to hell unless God chooses to rescue us from that fate. Our hellish fate, determined by the very fact of our birth, is their fault.

As I said, unless I missed something, nobody in here has said that.

It has also been explained to me that ‘original sin’ is that concupiscence…that propensity and desire to sin, that we inherit from our first parents because of their choices, a bit like an inheritable birth defect; Adam and Eve didn’t have this problem–then, by their choice to sin, developed it and passed it down to the rest of us. That seems to be more along the lines of what I am seeing in here.

OK…I can see that, and can even agree that human nature does like the ‘easy’ fix, or path, and that path is usually the indulgent, sinful one. However, that still raises the question, for me, of where we got that tendency. If our tendency to sin is the result of Adam and Eve’s choices, and is thus their fault, then what caused them to disobey? It seems to me that, while it is quite reasonable to claim that we inherited this problem from them, I get stuck with the problem of what happened to them.

There is a reason, after all, that they made the choices they did. If we blame our tendency to sin upon them, where do they go?

I am a little confused here Now you said that Adam and Eve did not have the desire to sin. Now in a way this is correct, Adam and Eve did not have the desire to sin like the rest of us. But then like the rest of us when we sin it is usually because we are tempted by someone or something.

Now granted Adam and Eve lived in the perfect world, but then the devil entered this perfect world and tried to destroy it. But he had ONE problem. he had power that he could use, but he had not control over anyone. The power that he used is the same power he is still using today.

You look at a young child, they are taught right from wrong. Your Mother will tell you at a early age, do not steal. So you ask why? You are taught that if you steal you will be punished and to steal is wrong! Quite simple. So you live your life in the perfect world and you listen to your Mother because she is all that you know.

Then someone comes along and says do not listen to your Mother listen to me, you can steal, and even get away with it. You see this in real life. It becomes a disorder for many.

Now what happens is your Mother will say if you steal, you will go to jail. Or you will be punished, etc the same thing. Now your friend says no you won’t. So now you have a choice, who do you listen to. What choice do you make. Adam and Eve are not to blame for the choice we made. And if we inherited this problem from them, then we would all choose to sin over not to sin. Cont…

 

[rinnie]

Now you said that because of what Adam and Eve did we are condemned to hell. Where is that written? Where are we even told the fate of Adam and Eve?

If we were condemned to hell because of Adam and Eve then Abraham and those with him after they passed from this world went directly to hell then right? But God’s word tell us something different.

We are told the righteous are with Abraham awaiting to be released from paradise, that is not hell. So it would be in direct conflict with what you are saying, would you not agree?

But when you read scripture it is quite clear that we are told ahead of time after the fall of Man from grace what sin can do.

Now back to the child that steals. What happens? Well if he is lucky he gets caught at a early age, and is punished from his parents for his sin (crime).

So lets say 2 children at the age of twelve are shopping and steal something. They are too young to be punished by the law so they are released to the parents. So see, they did not go to jail did they? The bad child that misled the good child did in a way tell the truth.

Or lets say they did not get caught. Then the parents lied then right? Because they stole and go away with it?

But then what happens? That is where the disorder comes in. People that sin and get away with it are never satisfied. They want more and more. We are told in the back of their mind they WANT to get caught

You see this every day. There are people who have more money then they know what to do with, but will go into a store and steal. It becomes their DRUG OF CHOICE. Is not our drug of choice our sin of choice.

What does our drug of choice do? Well lots of things. It helps us escape from reality. It is our way of coping with life. By that sin it is a escape from reality. So when the person who is stressed used shoplifting as the stress relief HAS to steal to get relief. It like any other sin becomes a fix. BUt what happens in the end? DEATH. Death of the soul, just like God said. After you steal you get the instant high, but are then hit with the rock bottom low. Why? SImple because he is wrong, and when you sin something happens to you and you do not even know it.

What happens when you sin, why does that quick fix, quick high, last for such a short time and why are you never satisfied? What is missing. Simple. GOD!! It takes many years to realize that without GOD there is no happiness, no contentment, only despair, lonely, anxiety, stress, all the not so fun things that sin brings with it.

Same with Adam and Eve they took sin over God. They were not tossed out because of the sin they committed. Many believe this, but scripture tell us another story.

They WOULD NOT REPENT, and wanted to do things their way, not Gods way. So with the free will God gave us he let them choose. SO like that drug of choice, that the devil made look so good what does he do, he lets us have fun alot of fun, and then he lets us DESTROY OURSELF with it. Like back to the kid that got away with the sin, what happened he never repented so the sin destroyed him. (who was the lucky one!)

My daughter went to school for criminal justice, and worked security. She busted a teenager for stealing. The girl cried and said all of my friends do this everyday. And my first time I got caught. I am the unlucky one. My daughter at that time was 19 and I was so proud of her response. At 19 she said, no honey you are the lucky one. They will continue to steal until they get caught, and if they do not get caught for a long time, they will need a bigger fix, a pair of earings will be ten pair, etc. Then when they work they will continue to steal, until they convience themself that it is not wrong anymore. It is owed to them. ANd sooner or later they will go to jail, or worse, they will never repent and go to hell for not being sorry and repenting.

 

[rinnie]

Now back to the moral of the story. When you sin you say God I want my way, not your way. My way is better. So God gives you that right to do what you want. He will never push himself on anyone.

But because the temptation is there, the bible also tells us there is no sin in this world that cannot be overpowered by Gods Grace. If you pray and say God I am weak help me, he will. If you say leave me alone I know what I am doing, he will.

But what Adam and Eve did has nothing to do with what we will do. You have control over your own mind. You can say NO to sin, or you can say Yes. But the devil thinks he can be stronger then God. Is He? You make the call!

For some he is, because they made it that way, For others he isn’t because of course they made it that way.

If we go to heaven or hell its our Call. No the devil, not Adam or Eve, not even Gods Call. He gave us the right to make our own Call. In these words:

If you love me DO MY WILL!! Love one another as I have loved you. The he gave us ten commandments to follow. Why? To punish us? NO he gave them to us to have freedom over ourself and sin.

Quite SImple Adam and Eve showed us Sin, and what would happen, and Jesus Christ the New Adam cleaned the slate and gave us a New Start. Now there is no paradise after death only Heaven and complete happiness with God. Or complete despair and complete separation from God. Its your call!

 

[grannymh]

Now granted Adam and Eve lived in the perfect world, but then the devil entered this perfect world and tried to destroy it.

“Now granted Adam and Eve lived in the perfect world” ???

My apology for being totally surprised. I have never heard that expression nor can I imagine that it could possibly be true according to Catholicism. What faith holds that position? Please explain.